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jimdahl

NDSU opposition to Sioux name

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Before the new Engelstad Arena opened a little over a year ago, I listened to a Twin Cities journalist on Scott Hennen's Hot Talk program attempt to berate and belittle everyone at UND, in Grand Forks and in North Dakota who supported the Fighting Sioux nickname and logo.

He claimed that we were all a bunch of backwards hicks who couldn't begin to understand how embarrassing we were to our state and nation. Everyone was laughing at us, he said, and we were simply too stupid and too unenlightened to realize it.

I have to admit that I almost bought it. The volume of negative press this issue generated almost had me believing that for the sake of our fine university and our state's image, perhaps we should consider dropping the Sioux name. It just wasn

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All of you need to read todays Forum. Im sure youll see much of your own unbecoming behavior reflected in the actions of some of your leaders and the benefactor that seems to have purchased your institution.

http://www.in-forum.com/articles/?id=23280

The cost to the image and respect to your insititution continues to mount and erode its remaining respectability.

Certainly the persistence of a legitimate point of view doesn't invalidate it. In the same way repeating acts of disrespect or exploitation DO NOT validate them them.

In your willingness to attack the integrity and well being of others that might disagree with you reinforces the notion that institutionally and on individual levels "you" are in fact racist and given over to prejudicial and possibly violent or cruel reactions in your attempts at suppression of thoughts, ideas and beliefs different from your own. That's the problem with ralphs letter and the responses of people like earl strindon and many of you.

Groundless counter arguments, loaded with rather insincere and convenient contriteness, contrived to draw attention from the issue plaguing your institution do not absolve accountability any more than the intellectually bankrupt slanders.

You are what you are. Its rather a shame really.

I hope NDSU has the courage to go ahead with the discussions and arrive at a policy that will no longe implicate NDSU in your unsavory behavors.

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What a shock! Sharon Carson, who wants to "re-educate" us all on what is and is not acceptable, claims that Ralph's response to her letter to the editor is trying to chill her free speech. Yet, she seems to question his entitlement to that same right, because he disagrees with her and has the audacity to challenge her point of view.

Strinden is right that those students, faculty and staff on the "wrong" side of this political debate face reprisals from those anti-nickname forces with even the least bit of power over the rest of us. The longer this controversy goes on, the more entrenched each side becomes and the hotter the rhetoric.

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In the same way repeating acts of disrespect or exploitation DO NOT validate them them.

Again, who is defining the disrespect? 81% of American Indians say the name should not change. Wouldn't it be more disrespectful to change, thus ignoring them and their wishes?

You continue to avoid the opportunity to refute my 'tatanka'/religious symbol assertion.

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Here is the latest from the Heraldo:

Bellecourt, a founding member and principal spokesman for the American Indian Movement, called a recent survey done by the Peter Harris Research Group and documented in Sports Illustrated magazine totally faulty and challenged its scientific merit.

Bellecourt challenged the sampling and the questions used in the poll, which found that 75 percent of American Indians don't care about the logo and mascot issue.

He argued that a better indication of Indian feelings could be found in a recent survey done by a Cherokee Indian group of 14,000 of its members. That poll, he said, found that 85 percent of respondents thought it was time to eliminate the use of Indian nicknames

So what is Vernon saying if he can't manipulate the data and pick his focus group he rules that the poll is flawed and irelevant. Yesh...

Scott Hennen hit the name on the head today by saying basically that the arts and science teacher are jokes and are jealous that they have basically been rule irrelevent when you compare them against the professors in the hard sciences.

It also proves how out of touch the P.C. crowd is.

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JBB wrote:

All of you need to read todays Forum. Im sure youll see much of your own unbecoming behavior reflected in the actions of some of your leaders and the benefactor that seems to have purchased your institution.
If the esteemed associate professor of English doesn

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I'd like to respond to some of Bellecourt's comments in the Herald.

"North Dakota is looked at across the country as still living in the dark ages as far as enlightenment," Bellecourt said.

-- I hear this one all the time. Bellecourt is attempting to play off the fact that North Dakotans do not want to be perceived as "hicks." Thus, he tries to make us feel like the rest of the country is laughing at us. This is an easy one to fall for, especially for some of the younger students. However, the truth is that the rest of the county is not aware of us or doesn't care about us. And for the people that do think we're all a bunch of hicks, changing the Sioux nickname will do nothing to change their perception. Additionally, I sense a growing resistance to political correctness in the country. I would bet that an increasing number of people respect North Dakota for standing up to political correctness.

This tactic has been tried before and it has generally backfired. Bellecourt basically insults an entire state. In doing so, North Dakotans reinforce their opinion that this is a movement run by outside activists who don't really care about the state.

Bellecourt said the people who are hurt most are the American Indian students on university campuses that use the nicknames.

--Where is the proof of this statement? I'm not an expert in this area and could be wrong, but aren't Indian students doing better at UND than at other schools? Aren't their graduation rates higher at UND than many other places? If Indians on UND's campus do hurt, do you suppose it's possible that the main reason is that white liberal professors are constantly telling them that they should be hurt by the nickname?

He put the blame squarely on Indian logos and mascots and the effects they have on self-esteem when he said that 85 percent of American Indians don't graduate from high school, and of those who move on to college, 85 percent don't finish.

--This is the funniest of all. It's not chronic alcoholism, drug use, gangs, poverty, family violence, lack of importance placed on education, isolation from the outside world, etc. etc. Yea, it's GOTTA be the Indian logos. Whatever.

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He put the blame squarely on Indian logos and mascots and the effects they have on self-esteem when he said that 85 percent of American Indians don't graduate from high school, and of those who move on to college, 85 percent don't finish.

Ah, yes, the liberal guilt trip gambit. Because of sports teams with Native American names and logos, it's society's fault that Native American students have low self-esteem. Perhaps liberals should heed the advice of one of their icons.

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent. -- Eleanor Roosevelt

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I can't remember if this was brought up before and I am pretty sure that othes have brought this up but Vernon Belcourt isn't even Sioux he is (WaBun-Inin) Anishinabe Ojibwe Nation Minnesota.

Hum another person of Ojibwe decent upset about the fighting Sioux name. Does anyone know why this is?

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I'd like to respond to some of Bellecourt's comments in

He put the blame squarely on Indian logos and mascots and the effects they have on self-esteem when he said that 85 percent of American Indians don't graduate from high school, and of those who move on to college, 85 percent don't finish.

--This is the funniest of all.  It's not chronic alcoholism, drug use, gangs, poverty, family violence, lack of importance placed on education, isolation from the outside world, etc. etc.  Yea, it's GOTTA be the Indian logos.  Whatever.

As I noted, when the Indians in Mpls protest, they generally worry about jobs, crime, healthcare, education and poverty. I haven't heard anybody state that UND's nickname is responsible for any of these issues, or that removing it would alleviate them. Well, except for a bunch of whiny pseudo-intellectual white liberals.

That line of logic ranks right up there with SU's logic in moving to D1, in that it will increase their academic "prestige".

BTW: "Groundless counter arguments, loaded with rather insincere and convenient contriteness, contrived to draw attention from the issue plaguing your institution do not absolve accountability any more than the intellectually bankrupt slanders."--Jethro

What the hell is this nonsense? I don't see any acts of contrition displayed around here. Maybe you should contact Ms. Carson and Mr. Mackenzie and "contrive" to have a good cry.

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Nothing worth comment on that round except to say there was a refreshing lack of slander and liable from the uenders. That's curious?

Its best that NDSU eliminate the logo and replace it and all your institutions nickname refrences with the insitution's intitials both in print and broadcast. Maybe when your offending behaviors are isolated you will finally develop a respectable self image? :angry:

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One group says, "Go Sioux!"

The other group says, "Sioux (self-censored)!" instead of "Go Bison!"

As a matter of fact, they can't say "Here we go Bison, here we go!" without adding a "Sioux (self-censored)" in there as a part of a standard crowd cheer. And they use that rally cry even when The University of North Dakota is not the opponent.

Last winter it was threats and destruction of property relating to the "10 Percent" society on the NDSU campus.

Then it was allegations made by the players and coaching staff of MSU-Mankato relating to crowd conduct at a recent FB game at NDSU's home field.

Could NDSU finally realize that cheering for themselves is better than cheering against everyone else?

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Nothing worth comment on that round except to say there was a refreshing lack of slander and liable from the uenders. That's curious?

What JBB should say is that he cant handle the truth and nor can he argue the facts, he cant because he is losing the argument. However, JBB being the misguided liberal is going to slug on his in cause no matter how wrong he is.

By the way JBB are you a white hand wringing liberal?

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When you declare yourself the winner you should also go home. I hope you do that. In the meantime, if you are really a supporter, the state of disgrace your institution finds itself should be a matter of concern to you. Maybe you should ask yourself the question why it is so important to perpetuate the cultural exploitation your institution is engaged in?

I certainly hope NDSU makes the right decision and joins the growing group of Universities that will no longer aid and abet the deplorable institutional behavior displayed by uendd.

By striking a sympathetic example with the others we may be able to help the small minority of individuals that create a derivative form of racism by trivializing your mascot, however crudely, as some of you are so fond of pointing out. I would think it would be very hard to condemn the derivative behavior without condemning the primary cause.

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When you declare yourself the winner you should also go home. I hope you do that. In the meantime, if you are really a supporter, the state of disgrace your institution finds itself should be a matter of concern to you. Maybe you should ask yourself the question why it is so important to perpetuate the cultural exploitation your institution is engaged in?

I certainly hope NDSU makes the right decision and joins the growing group of Universities that will no longer aid and abet the deplorable institutional behavior displayed by uendd.

By striking a sympathetic example with the others we may be able to help the small minority of individuals that create a derivative form of racism by trivializing your mascot, however crudely, as some of you are so fond of pointing out. I would think it would be very hard to condemn the derivative behavior without condemning the primary cause.

Blah, Blah, Blah, the same tired worn out not true B.S.

Hey Poindexter answer the question? Are you a white hand Wringing Liberal. That is the problem with Liberals you don't debate the Issues, you don't answer question you spend your time preaching and you just proved our point. You only tell us want you want us to think.

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I, for one, have never condemned NDSU students for chanting "Sioux suck." I realize that most of those students are not referring to the Sioux people, but are simply referring to the athletic team. I also think that most Indians realize this point as well (see article on uscho on Ranfranz).

However, JBB, you come on this board and start ranting about how the Sioux nickname makes UND a racist institution, and at the same time, you claim (or imply that) NDSU is so pristine. People are simply pointing out that, according to your own standards, many of things NDSU students say in their "cheers" is more offensive than anything UND students do.

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Trivializing the nickname occurs both from your opponents and from within your own institution. In the opinion of many, Sioux-per dogs is not a proper way to honor a Sioux Warrior. I agree with your statement about the secondary effects of opponents trivializing the name not being an intended racist statement, all of it is unintended. But, the affects are real. On the other hand the commercialization seems somewhat hypocritical. I haven't declared your institution racist. The people you are offending have. I simply advocate their view since there is no way to use the icon without causing the transgressions against the people raising the objections. Thats why I hope NDSU discontinues its use. Rightly or wrongly, by using the icon your are implicating everyone. Its time to admit its use has become offense and change with the times.

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I feel very strongly about the University of North Dakota's athletic teams being the Fighting Sioux and having a respectful logo. The name and logo, chosen over a half century ago, stand for pride, honor, overcoming adversity and winning battles. Playing athletics and facing our opposition is a battle and you go to battle to win. I believe I share this view with a vast percentage of UND alumni and, according to what I've read, also the vast majority of the students and I know with almost all hockey letterwinners.

I have not been bashful about expressing my view on this, and I do so again on behalf of the hockey letterwinners. A few years ago, 50 years of Division I hockey was commemorated, and a national survey indicated the Fighting Sioux was one of the favorite team names and the logo and uniform were the most popular and, I believe, respected. I also believe this has brought about more understanding of the Sioux nation and the American Indians and with this, more respect.

If UND should drop this name, in my opinion, it would be a step backward. We should be building on this association, creating opportunities for the building of individual accomplishments and for self-sufficiency and more self-esteem. I understand that UND is one of the primary universities in the nation offering educational programs for the American Indians. We can all be very proud of this.

Ralph Engelstad Q&A

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I haven't declared your institution racist. The people you are offending have.

A minority of a minority believes that it should be able to dictate to the majority. Sorry, but that's not the American way.

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I apologize for not getting involved in this thread earlier. But since JBB has been finally given us a counter points to this issue, I will bring up some of the questions I always post when the name change comes up, and are never answered.

1) If Indian/Native American names are racist. Why is it schools and institutions on/or in close proximity to reservations are not being protested and forced to change their names? Examples Fort Yates Standing Rock Community Elementary is the warriors, Fort Totten Junior Senior High is the Indians, and many "reservation" schools in South Dakota use these particular name.

The only argument I have every been given for this is that they [reservation schools] use the name honorably. Which is the most blatant use of racism available.

2) If the word "Sioux" is so racist a word, why is it the national Sioux tribe or even regional Sioux tribes change their name to something different.

3) The National Sioux (and they still call themselves "Sioux") tribe and every large-scale poll made of Indians/Native Americans has shown that a majority do not want these changes made. Why is it that a minority group has decided that they know what is best for the whole group?

Are you saying that you are some sort of super-intelligent sub-group and you should dictate what is best for humanity? I have many Indian/Native American friends and this puzzles them as well.

4) Other ethic groups, such as the Irish, or Norwegians, or the Finnish have not decided to start a racism war or the use of their ethic names. Why is that?

I always hear "Notre Dame F*cking Irish". Or anyone who has been to a Packers game has heard "Vikings Suck". These are the same verbal statements that have cause "Irreversible harm" in Indians/Native Americans, how come it hasn't harmed this other minorities? And don't state it is because these races have been treated differently, because every minority, whether it has been based on race, religion, creed, or color has been treated unfairly through out the world!!!! I have heard that song and dance, and it doesn't hold water.

Is it that because other groups can move away from the past, or they finally, grow up, or that they finally see that global acceptance starts with themselves? Please enlighten us with explanation. And please remember that everyone who reads your answer is a minority in some way shape or form.

Actually, the questions above are open to all sides of the discussion, but I am really anxious to here from "JBB and associates". Please make your answers, JBB, answers and not the typical "brigdes" partyline responses.

Thanks

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Please make your answers, JBB, answers and not the typical "brigdes" partyline responses.

Don't hold your breath waiting. ;)

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Here is a real shocking developement. Last night the ndac student senate passed a resolution "strongely" opposing the use of native american mascots, nicknames etc. They also recommended the ac's media guide and p.a. systems not refer to schools that have such by these names etc. Ancillary to this is that the senate frowns on derogatory chants and tee-shirts. Like I said, I'm in a state of shock.

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I congratulate the NDSU student senate for the actions they have taken.

As for Bacardiao's request for answers? Since they are the Sioux they should have the righ to use the name anyway they please. Since your not you dont have that right.

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