Fetch Posted November 27, 2007 Share Posted November 27, 2007 http://minnesota.twins.mlb.com/news/articl...sp&c_id=min http://minnesota.twins.mlb.com/news/articl...sp&c_id=min Hunter & maybe Santana gone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dropTHEgloves Posted November 27, 2007 Share Posted November 27, 2007 The one hurdle in these talks is that Santana has a no trade clause and word is if he accepts a trade, he will ask for a 7 year , 180 million dollar extension. Thats a large hurdle to deal with plus the prospects the yankees would have to give away. A better deal for the Yankees would be to trade for Dan Haren and sign Johan when he files for free agency (Which he probably will do since he turned down the twins offer of 4 years 80 million). The Yankees then would basically get a 2 for 1 deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetch Posted November 27, 2007 Author Share Posted November 27, 2007 I'm still ticked about Castillo & Big Poppy for that matter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goon Posted November 27, 2007 Share Posted November 27, 2007 The one hurdle in these talks is that Santana has a no trade clause and word is if he accepts a trade, he will ask for a 7 year , 180 million dollar extension. Thats a large hurdle to deal with plus the prospects the yankees would have to give away. A better deal for the Yankees would be to trade for Dan Haren and sign Johan when he files for free agency (Which he probably will do since he turned down the twins offer of 4 years 80 million). The Yankees then would basically get a 2 for 1 deal. I am thinking its going to be another season of not watching the twins... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soohockey15 Posted November 27, 2007 Share Posted November 27, 2007 You people probably don't understand how much better off the Twins will be if they trade Santana. That's ok, I didn't really expect it out of you guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigGreyAnt41 Posted November 27, 2007 Share Posted November 27, 2007 You people probably don't understand how much better off the Twins will be if they trade Santana. That's ok, I didn't really expect it out of you guys. At least we all understand now, after your stellar explanation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sicatoka Posted November 27, 2007 Share Posted November 27, 2007 Torii Hunter will prove out to be a bigger loss than Johan Santana. Why? Who protects (bats behind) Justin Morneau now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soohockey15 Posted November 27, 2007 Share Posted November 27, 2007 At least we all understand now, after your stellar explanation. First of all, it was smart of the Twins to let Hunter go. He's 32 and wanted a rediculous amount of money. In his new contract, he will be payed $18 mil when he's 38. By that time, he will be a fourth outfielder on most teams. Also, he won't get any better at the plate. He'll hit between 22-27 homers for the two years, but doesn't get on base at all (.324 career OBP). Using the money that would've gone to him to resign players like Nathan and Morneau is a much better value than paying an aging outfielder. Santana is the best pitcher in baseball, this isn't really debatable. In his new contract, he'll command between $20-25 mil and even when the Twins move into the new stadium, that would take up about 1/4 of the payroll. In trading him, the Twins will get at least two major league ready prospects who will have between 4-6 years left on their current contracts (From the Yankees Cabrera and Hughes, from the Red Sox Bucholz/Lester and Ellsbury, from the Dodgers Kershaw/Billingsley and Kemp), not to mention the one or two other Grade A prospects that are in the respective clubs farm systems. The young players I mentioned will be All-Star caliber players in the next two to four years; making one of these deals would fill a hole in centerfield and in the rotation. The Twins have shown success by developing young talent and parlaying that into trading for younger, more serviceable talent (Knoblauch for Guzman and Milton, Pierzynski for Liriano, Bonser, and Nathan). Also Sicatoka, to say that Hunter is a bigger loss than Santana is laughable. Teams eagerly pitched to Hunter all year, as he isn't really as good of a hitter as everyone believes (look into his OBP and SLG). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigGreyAnt41 Posted November 27, 2007 Share Posted November 27, 2007 Also Sicatoka, to say that Hunter is a bigger loss than Santana is laughable. Teams eagerly pitched to Hunter all year, as he isn't really as good of a hitter as everyone believes (look into his OBP and SLG). You brought up a lot of good points, but I have to disagree with this. While Sicatoka based his reasoning on Hunter's offense (protecting Morneau), you have ignored his defense. That's where he will be lost. Just as Santana is undeniably the best pitcher in baseball right now, Hunter is arguable the best fielding center fielder. How many games would the Twins have lost in past years had Hunter not made the spectacular plays that he routinely made? Never once did Hunter (at least not reported) give a dollar value that he wanted out of a contract. He said over and over, though, that he wanted five years. The Twins never offered him five years at any dollar value, so he passed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soohockey15 Posted November 27, 2007 Share Posted November 27, 2007 You brought up a lot of good points, but I have to disagree with this. While Sicatoka based his reasoning on Hunter's offense (protecting Morneau), you have ignored his defense. That's where he will be lost. Just as Santana is undeniably the best pitcher in baseball right now, Hunter is arguable the best fielding center fielder. How many games would the Twins have lost in past years had Hunter not made the spectacular plays that he routinely made? Never once did Hunter (at least not reported) give a dollar value that he wanted out of a contract. He said over and over, though, that he wanted five years. The Twins never offered him five years at any dollar value, so he passed. The fact that people still think Torii Hunter is deserving of a Gold Glove are people who don't pay much attention to defensive metrics other than "Web Gems" and who don't watch enough players around the league. He still makes great plays, but only on the balls he can get to. He ranked 7th out of 10 qualified centerfielders in range factor with six better defensive centerfielders ahead of him (Crisp, Granderson, Cabrera, Ichiro, Matthews, DeJesus. Crisp and Granderson were MUCH better choices for the GG, but I don't want to get another thread shut down). Hunter has reached the point of winning Gold Gloves on reputation, basically because sportswriters are clueless on how to measure defensive players. Although Hunter has saved games for the Twins in the past, his over-aggressiveness has also killed the team (anyone remember the two inside the park home runs he gave up in the playoffs?) in some situations. I fear that as he gets older and his range shrinks even more, Hunter will still believe he can make the highlight reel catches, where in real life he'll be hurting the team. To make a point about Santana being more valuable than Hunter, think about this...how many pitchers would you take over Santana (on my list, it's zero). Now think of how many centerfielders you would take over Hunter (Granderson, Sizemore, Ichiro, Beltran and thats just to start...I will probably add Hanley Ramirez to that list when the Marlins shift him to center due to his atrocious defense at short). Also, everyone looking for Liriano to be anywhere near the same pitcher he was two years ago think again. Eventually (2009) he will revert back to form, but this year look for him to throw no more than 150 innings and start the year either in the bullpen or Triple A. The Twins will take ZERO chances regarding his health as he will prove much more valuable in years to come. The Twins cannot let Santana go without getting anything for him. He will be traded or resigned, but there is absolutely no way they let him go for free. Also, look for one of the young pitchers (Baker, Garza, Slowey) to be traded this offseason for a young outfielder (possibly Carlos Quentin from Ari). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goon Posted November 27, 2007 Share Posted November 27, 2007 At least we all understand now, after your stellar explanation. I can't wait for this explanation, I am actually at the edge of my seat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetch Posted November 27, 2007 Author Share Posted November 27, 2007 Hunter is / was no Kirby Puckett I now need shoulder surgery because I threw the ball some at 17 18 19 (& maybe because of the thousands of shotgun shells & rifles I've shot) I wish I could have got 80 million for winning alittle over 1/2 the games I pitched in a year I doubt I'll ever go to a twins game again - not at the prices it is gonna take to pay for all this (Maybe once to see the new ballpark - if the weather is nice) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soohockey15 Posted November 27, 2007 Share Posted November 27, 2007 I can't wait for this explanation, I am actually at the edge of my seat. Explanation: See above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siouxkid12 Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 Explanation: See above. Unfortunately soohockey15, i am with you on some things but not all. In hindsight the Twins MAY be better off with Santana but how far can you win with prospects? Prospects only get you so far and when you reach the playoffs you need leadership. Also it was not smart of the Twins to just let Hunter go because what did they get in return?...13 years of service and a wave goodbye! The least the Twins couldve done is traded him during the season and get something back in return because we all know he was not going to resign in Minnesota. The only pitcher that is probably going to get traded would be Nathan, the Twins will not pay him Francisco Cordero money when they have Neshek waiting in line that is fully capable of the closer duties. If the Twins DO get rid of a young pitcher it wont be for a speedy outfielder or let alone an OF, it will probably be for a bat, which the Twins are in need of. You did hit right on with Liriano not pitching much in '08. Although it seems that Liriano is coming back at regular speed there is one thing we wont see much of this year is his slider. With the slider putting A LOT of strain on a persons elbow I am sure the Twins pitching staff will limit him when the season starts. I wont put much thought into Liriano pitching that much this year to make too much of a difference. As of today the 5 starting pitchers would look something like this(not in this order)...Santana, Baker, Garza, Slowey, and Bonser. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soohockey15 Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 Unfortunately soohockey15, i am with you on some things but not all. In hindsight the Twins MAY be better off with Santana but how far can you win with prospects? Prospects only get you so far and when you reach the playoffs you need leadership. Also it was not smart of the Twins to just let Hunter go because what did they get in return?...13 years of service and a wave goodbye! The least the Twins couldve done is traded him during the season and get something back in return because we all know he was not going to resign in Minnesota. The only pitcher that is probably going to get traded would be Nathan, the Twins will not pay him Francisco Cordero money when they have Neshek waiting in line that is fully capable of the closer duties. If the Twins DO get rid of a young pitcher it wont be for a speedy outfielder or let alone an OF, it will probably be for a bat, which the Twins are in need of. You did hit right on with Liriano not pitching much in '08. Although it seems that Liriano is coming back at regular speed there is one thing we wont see much of this year is his slider. With the slider putting A LOT of strain on a persons elbow I am sure the Twins pitching staff will limit him when the season starts. I wont put much thought into Liriano pitching that much this year to make too much of a difference. As of today the 5 starting pitchers would look something like this(not in this order)...Santana, Baker, Garza, Slowey, and Bonser. With the exception of Kershaw (LHP, Dodgers) all the others I mentioned are Major League ready and have at least one year experience under their belts. The pitchers could step in to at least a #2 role on most teams, and the position players would be top of the order guys as well. Also, Carlos Quentin would be the bat they acquire (presumably for one of the young pitchers), but he won't get a chance in Arizona because apparently Eric Byrnes is worth $32 mil over three years. Completely agree regarding Hunter, although they probably wouldn't have gotten a whole lot for him as there wasn't a big market among the playoff teams for a guy like him, so the return wouldn't have been as good as the first round pick and the sandwich pick the Twins will receive as compensation in the 2008 draft (Remember, Clay Bucholz was a comp pick by the Red Sox in the 2005 draft and has developed in to a top five pitching prospect). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siouxkid12 Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 With the exception of Kershaw (LHP, Dodgers) all the others I mentioned are Major League ready and have at least one year experience under their belts. The pitchers could step in to at least a #2 role on most teams, and the position players would be top of the order guys as well. Also, Carlos Quentin would be the bat they acquire (presumably for one of the young pitchers), but he won't get a chance in Arizona because apparently Eric Byrnes is worth $32 mil over three years. Arizona is becoming the Kansas City Royals and it is starting to piss me off.... Eric Byrnes is not worth 32 million over 3 years, just like Gil Meche is not worth 5 years 55 million either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soohockey15 Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 The Meche signing wasn't nearly as bad as the Byrnes, he posted a 3.67 in 216 IP. He probably would've been a better signing for a team that doesn't completely suck, however. The thing I don't get about the Royals and the Pirates is why they don't use their perennial top-5 draft pick to build a farm system. The Devil Rays (or as they will be known next year Rays) are in the process of doing this and building a great core of young players such as Carl Crawford, Evan Longoria (next year's ROY) and David Price. Scott Kazmir is already a number 1 and James Shields is a solid number 2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siouxkid12 Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 The Meche signing wasn't nearly as bad as the Byrnes, he posted a 3.67 in 216 IP. He probably would've been a better signing for a team that doesn't completely suck, however. The thing I don't get about the Royals and the Pirates is why they don't use their perennial top-5 draft pick to build a farm system. The Devil Rays (or as they will be known next year Rays) are in the process of doing this and building a great core of young players such as Carl Crawford, Evan Longoria (next year's ROY) and David Price. Scott Kazmir is already a number 1 and James Shields is a solid number 2. I thought the Royals were on the right track a few years ago when they were contending late into the season, but for some reason they just fell apart after that. Being around professional baseball teams for the past two years, its pretty hard for a team to build a farm system with just draft picks, in reality only a handful of players that get drafted actually make it to the show. What the Royals and Pirates should do is suck for a few more years but stick with the young players but go scout players that are playing in independent leagues because there is some really good talent that is just waiting to be signed. What I meant about the Meche signing was that that contract set the standard for an average pitcher. An average pitcher isnt worth 55 million for 5 years. The D-Rays for some reason are a team that is on the rise. They diffently need to get some more quality pitchers,not flashy guys, just guys who can eat up some innings without doing any damage. Will they ever get out of the AL East...prolly not but a wild card berth is a realistic goal in the next few years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soohockey15 Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 I think that the Royals could've built a solid foundation around young players and a few older guys, much like the Diamondbacks did this year. The Pirates are completely different. They continue to make absolutely insane decisions (Matt Morris, anyone?) and can't figure out if they want old talent, young talent, or just talent at all. I think the Royals took a step in the right direction by signing Meche (who I didn't think much of prior to this season), which has proved to be pretty good as he's developed in to a top-20 starter in the American League. They have a ways to go, however. I'm extremely excited to see what the Rays can do in the next few years. They have a bunch of young guys still on their rookie contracts, so they won't anything over the next few years. They could possibly win the division in the 2010-11 range. They will probably be able to trade Baldelli for some bullpen help this offseason. They will have three very good pitchers in the next few years and budding stars in the field (Upton, Dukes to name two). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siouxkid12 Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 I think that the Royals could've built a solid foundation around young players and a few older guys, much like the Diamondbacks did this year. The Pirates are completely different. They continue to make absolutely insane decisions (Matt Morris, anyone?) and can't figure out if they want old talent, young talent, or just talent at all. I think the Royals took a step in the right direction by signing Meche (who I didn't think much of prior to this season), which has proved to be pretty good as he's developed in to a top-15 starter in the American League. They have a ways to go, however. I'm extremely excited to see what the Rays can do in the next few years. They have a bunch of young guys still on their rookie contracts, so they won't anything over the next few years. They could possibly win the division in the 2010-11 range. They will probably be able to trade Baldelli for some bullpen help this offseason. They will have three very good pitchers in the next few years and budding stars in the field (Upton, Dukes to name two). Beating the likes of the Yankees and Red Sox...I dont think the Rays can but who knows! It would be nice to see them win the division. I have heard on some websites though (I would have to look back into it again) that Kazmir has been mentioned in a few trades. God I can't wait for Baseball to start again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soohockey15 Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 Beating the likes of the Yankees and Red Sox...I dont think the Rays can but who knows! It would be nice to see them win the division. I have heard on some websites though (I would have to look back into it again) that Kazmir has been mentioned in a few trades. God I can't wait for Baseball to start again! I guess I'd be really surprised to see them trade Kazmir, he's not a free agent for three years and they Rays don't need any more hitting. Kid is a stud and only going to get better. Check out ESPN's Hot Stove League for continual free agent updates...it's a gift from the Gods in the offseason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sicatoka Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 Michael Cuddyer, but where the Twins are really going to miss Hunter is in the field. First part: Cuddyer? Morneau loses at least 25 points of BA and 7 HRs in that scenario. No one fears Cuddyer going yard. He's a line-drive doubles hitter. Second part: Exactly, because it's about defense up the middle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goon Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 Hunter is / was no Kirby Puckett I now need shoulder surgery because I threw the ball some at 17 18 19 (& maybe because of the thousands of shotgun shells & rifles I've shot) I wish I could have got 80 million for winning alittle over 1/2 the games I pitched in a year I doubt I'll ever go to a twins game again - not at the prices it is gonna take to pay for all this (Maybe once to see the new ballpark - if the weather is nice) I still thing he is a loss and will go down as being one of the better twins players in their history. I noticed that as you get older all of the shots add up... The money that Baseball players are paying is gettting to be crazy that being said I don't feel sorry for Pohlad since he is the 9th richest owner in baseball... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soohockey15 Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 First part: Cuddyer? Morneau loses at least 25 points of BA and 7 HRs in that scenario. No one fears Cuddyer going yard. He's a line-drive doubles hitter. Second part: Exactly, because it's about defense up the middle. I just woke up, but I think that's going to take the cake for the dumbest thing I'll read all day. Cuddyer had a higher OBP than Hunter did and his SLG isn't that far off as well, so to say teams will pitch around Morneau more than they did this year is wrong. If anything, Morneau's numbers will go up. Also, depending on who plays centerfield next year, it could be an upgrade (defensively) from Hunter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siouxkid12 Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 I just woke up, but I think that's going to take the cake for the dumbest thing I'll read all day. Cuddyer had a higher OBP than Hunter did, so that means that teams will pitch around Morneau even less. If anything, Morneau's numbers will go up. Also, depending on who plays centerfield next year, it could be an upgrade from Hunter. Whoever place CF next year for the Twins will not even come close to Torii! Torii was the FACE of the TWINS and he gave it is all day in and day out. The thing that the Twins will miss the most is his clubhouse presense! Torii understood how the Twins did business (i.e. small ball, hit and run, stuff like that) and when players got a little big headed he brought them back down to earth (see Torii punching Morneau). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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