defensive coordinator(s)

[UND92,96]

At the risk of stirring the pot--which is really not my intention here--what do people think should happen regarding the defensive coordinator situation next year? As most people know, for the past two years UND has had co-coordinators, which I believe is a rather unusual arrangement. Should Lennon keep things as they are? Pick one or the other? Try to recruit Bubba or Dosch back? Thoughts?

[bincitysioux]

He needs to do something. Either pick one or bring someone else in. These last two years of UND football have been the two worst Sioux defenses that I can recall in years.

[star2city]

He needs to do something. Either pick one or bring someone else in. These last two years of UND football have been the two worst Sioux defenses that I can recall in years.

Bottom line: can any loss really be put a the feet of the defense? With the UNO loss this year, the UND offense left points on the board and didn't convert 4th-down situations.

Statistically, and probably a surprise to many, UND's defense leads the NCC in most major categories: http://www.northcentralconference.org/spor...ts/confldrs.htm

UND's defense isn't as strong in the red zone and doesn't get the turnovers like they have in the past.

This year UNO's defense is dominant is in rushing defense and turnover margin, where UND has traditionally been strong.

Rather than coaching, it just seems UND doesn't have the athleticism at the DL and LB positions (who are still young) or the rest of the league (especially UNO and CWU) made considerable upgrades.

[sIoUxPeRsTiTiOuS]

I have a great idea. How about the defensive players execute the game plan and their individual responsibilities to the extent that the defensive coaches ask of them? Or maybe even tackling better? I can guarantee better results on the field if that were to happen. Sometimes people forget that players have to execute in order for coordinators and coaches to be termed "successful". Do you think Tim Tibesar's defensive gameplan against Nebraska this week was lacking? I sure don't. But Kansas State gave up 70+ points to them on defense. I just think we need to realize that a lot of the responsibility falls on the players to execute and we are way too willing to put the blame solely on coordinators and coaches.

Other than that, my suggestion would be UND 92,96 and bincitysioux as co-defensive coordinators.

[UND92,96]

I have a great idea. How about the defensive players execute the game plan and their individual responsibilities to the extent that the defensive coaches ask of them? Or maybe even tackling better? I can guarantee better results on the field if that were to happen. Sometimes people forget that players have to execute in order for coordinators and coaches to be termed "successful". Do you think Tim Tibesar's defensive gameplan against Nebraska this week was lacking? I sure don't. But Kansas State gave up 70+ points to them on defense. I just think we need to realize that a lot of the responsibility falls on the players to execute and we are way too willing to put the blame solely on coordinators and coaches.

Other than that, my suggestion would be UND 92,96 and bincitysioux as co-defensive coordinators.

I think that if you were to carefully read my post, you would see that nowhere did I blame anyone for anything. It's a legitimate question, particularly considering you just don't seem to see co-coordinators at any other program that I'm aware of. Am I happy with how the run defense performed against UNO and USD? No. Is anyone, players and coaches included? But I don't pretend to know the reasons for the downturn in our run defense the past couple of years. And by "downturn", I'm not talking about the overall numbers so much as against the teams that you know are going to run 80% of the time, but you still can't slow them down.

How's this for a sobering statistic?--against the three best backs UND has faced this year--Allen, McNeill and Garner--the Sioux have given up an average of 245 yards per game. What is this, 1986?

[sIoUxPeRsTiTiOuS]

I think that if you were to carefully read my post, you would see that nowhere did I blame anyone for anything. It's a legitimate question, particularly considering you just don't seem to see co-coordinators at any other program that I'm aware of. Am I happy with how the run defense performed against UNO and USD? No. Is anyone? But I don't pretend to know the reasons for the downturn in our run defense the past couple of years. And by "downturn", I'm not talking about the overall numbers so much as against the teams that you know are going to run 80% of the time, but you still can't slow them down.

How's this for a sobering statistic?--against the three best backs UND has faced this year--Allen, McNeill and Garner--the Sioux have given up an average of 245 yards per game. What is this, 1986?

Actually, I think co-coordinators are more prevalent than maybe you realize. During USC's successful run, after Norm Chow left, Steve Sarkisian and Lane Kiffin were co-OC's and I believe they had some success together. That's just one example off the top of my head.

I agree with you, those are sobering stats. However, if you put Digger Anderson, Tim Tibesar, Travis O'neel, or Eric Schmidt on this defense, I believe those stats would change dramatically. All I'm saying is that we don't have those types of players on our D this year. Players abilities will have a big effect on how successful coordinators are. The Huskers absolutely ate the K-State defense alive this week with a simple inside/outside zone blocking scheme. I think Tim had a good gameplan for inside zone.

Your original query in this thread was "what should we do about the coordinator situation on defense". My answer is nothing. I think we need to have better players who can execute the game plan properly. My shot at you and bin were in good-natured fun. Just telling you my opinion on it. Maybe we just agree to disagree. No hard feelings.

[BigGame]

I think Tim had a good gameplan for inside zone.

Stopping the run is not a very complicated thing. Either you control your gaps and don't get blow off the ball or you do. Whether you are talking about zone and stretch or the standard rules blocking, if everyone on the defense does his job (not overpursueing for example) your defense should at least be able to slow down the opposing teams run game.

I don't know about having 2 D coordinators, I think in a perfect situation it could work but most of the time it would be counter productive. I do agree that UND is not nearly as talented at LB and on the DL as in past years.

[sIoUxPeRsTiTiOuS]

Stopping the run is not a very complicated thing. Either you control your gaps and don't get blow off the ball or you do. Whether you are talking about zone and stretch or the standard rules blocking, if everyone on the defense does his job (not overpursueing for example) your defense should at least be able to slow down the opposing teams run game.

Precisely. Thank you for echoing my point.

[broken arrow]

Precisely. Thank you for echoing my point.

[UND92,96]

I'm somewhat familiar with some of the young talent on offense and in the secondary, but what about the front seven? Are there any potential run-stuffers waiting in the wings?

[Lefty - UNO Fan]

Rather than coaching, it just seems UND doesn't have the athleticism at the DL and LB positions (who are still young) or the rest of the league (especially UNO and CWU) made considerable upgrades.

I agree that UND does not have as good of players this year. At some point late last year is when the defense started faltering. The Sioux defense in the playoff game was much worse than the one I saw earlier in the season. I said that UND actually looked soft last year, which is something I have not seen for quite some time.

UNO's pass defense got worse last year too. UNO's rushing defense has never been the problem, it's been the pass defense the last 5 years. UNO is probably less talented this year on the front 7. They graduated two 3-year starters and one 4-year starter at LB. The defensive line is the same starting 3 from last year. Those guys are just playing with much more intensity this year.

[bincitysioux]

Your original query in this thread was "what should we do about the coordinator situation on defense". My answer is nothing. I think we need to have better players who can execute the game plan properly. My shot at you and bin were in good-natured fun. Just telling you my opinion on it. Maybe we just agree to disagree. No hard feelings.

Well, maybe you're right. But who does the responsibility of recruiting fall upon? Lennon, Mannasau, Kelling......? Who was responsible for recruiting the players early this decade when UND put out defenses that only allowed 10 to 15 points per game? Was Bubba responsible for recruiting all the players that implemented his defense all those years? Was Lennon responsible for recruiting all the players that implemented his defense all those years that he was Defensive Coordinator?

My concern about having "co-defensive coordinators" is that Mannasau (who is apparently responsible for the Front 7) and Kelling (who is apparently responsible for the secondary) are each recruiting players and implementing schemes that may not jive with what the other wants to accomplish on the defensive side of the ball or with the abilities of the players each coach is using in said schemes.

My problem is that UND's "vaunted" 3-4 defense was installed over a decade ago by the man who is our current head coach. It was originally designed to stop the run, specifically option/veer offenses. The last two seasons this defense has been torched by the only option/veer offense that it still competes against regularly (UNO), and by USD which likes to throw in some option plays, and then there is GVSU who likes to run the QB as well.

[sIoUxPeRsTiTiOuS]

Not trying to be argumentative and these are just my thoughts and opinions. You can twist it and turn it any way that you want. It's no different than the people who have called out Mussman for his offenses in the past. Nothing has changed, it's the same offense with a few tweaks here and there. The offense is doing things this year that has never been seen before. Helps when you have great players to execute the offense. The Sioux offenses have won a lot of games for UND the last few years. I wish I could pull up the thread from last year that was bashing Mussman's play calling. When you have 500+ yards/game it tends to silence the critics.

In your response to the 3-4 being designed to stop the option, yes you are right. Originally it was. However, offenses and defenses evolve throughout the years. Generally speaking, teams have begun to pass the ball more. Enter the zone blitz scheme in the late 90's. It's a trendy profession, offensively and defensively. Tampa 2 and 3-3-5 defenses, Zone Read and West Coast offenses. How many veer/option teams do you know of? This will in turn change your recruiting style in terms of the athletes that you pursue. Why recruit guys that are going to fit in the option-stopping scheme when you only see it once a year? By and far, the option teams are becoming scarce. So I think you have to just adapt the best you can for that one game every year. I would rather recruit athletes for the other 10 teams that pass the ball 75% of the time.

I would be willing to guess that when Pat Behrns is done coaching, the new coach will install a spread-type offense. It's attractive to the top-flight recruits on offense so that they can best utilize their athletic abilities. Behrns' offense has been the same since he has been there and only because he has been there so long.

Sorry for rambling, but offenses and defenses evolve around each other. Recruiting will change because of that. Your comment about Mannausau and Kelling recruiting different athletes for the same defense doesn't really make sense. They both are running the same D together and I would like to believe that they consult with each other in extreme depth about who to recruit and who not to in order to maximize their needs for their defense. Defensively right now, I think our breakdowns on the field are not because of coaching, but rather because players aren't executing as they are taught. For example, tackling, pursuit angles, gap responsibilities, holding contain, etc. I don't know how many times throughout the years I have seen two guys blitz in the same gap. Do you think the coaches teach that? That's just an example.

No offense, just my opinion

[UND92,96]

Ultimately, Dale Lennon is the only one whose opinion really matters with regard to how the co-coordinator situation is working, and I do trust that he'll make the correct decision, whatever that decision may be.

It appears that a pretty solid nucleus will be coming back on defense, but I'd really like to see a 300 lb. nose guard, and a big inside linebacker transfer in from either the juco or I-A ranks.

[sIoUxPeRsTiTiOuS]

Ultimately, Dale Lennon is the only one whose opinion really matters with regard to how the co-coordinator situation is working, and I do trust that he'll make the correct decision, whatever that decision may be.

It appears that a pretty solid nucleus will be coming back on defense, but I'd really like to see a 300 lb. nose guard, and a big inside linebacker transfer in from either the juco or I-A ranks.

I agree with you. A big, 2-gapping noseguard in the mold of Mark Callahan or Scott Schultz that would require double-teams would be awesome to have, especially against UNO. However, I do not believe those guys are easy to find. We already have a great OLB in Bobby Stroup, now we need to match it with an inside guy. The freshman class this year is loaded with LB's. Between the freshman and returning upperclassmen, hopefully we have some answers in house already. If not, I would not be opposed to getting a JUCO for that spot for the immediate future.

[Stromer]

Not trying to be argumentative and these are just my thoughts and opinions. You can twist it and turn it any way that you want. It's no different than the people who have called out Mussman for his offenses in the past. Nothing has changed, it's the same offense with a few tweaks here and there. The offense is doing things this year that has never been seen before. Helps when you have great players to execute the offense. The Sioux offenses have won a lot of games for UND the last few years. I wish I could pull up the thread from last year that was bashing Mussman's play calling. When you have 500+ yards/game it tends to silence the critics.

What has changed since last year? Sure Chappell is a year older and we had a steady QB in this year instead of the rotation caused by injuries last year. The players aren't the reason for the change. I notice a difference in the play calling. This year we have went away from the bubble screen, a big favorite of years past. We run the ball way more than we did last year. We take less shots down the field. End arounds to Dressler are not as common. And we are not as conservative as in years past. This year we seem to be a standard run the ball down their throats and move the ball effectively down the field with medium gain passes. In previous years, it seemed like it was an all or nothing pass play or a high risk and reward screen. This year we are giving those players a chance to make a difference based on the play calling.

[The Sicatoka]

Folks, if you didn't realize this season's defense would be a work in progress with growing pains at times you hadn't been paying attention. You can't lose the quantity and quality of players UND did over the last two years and not feel some growing pains.

They haven't always been assignment sharp and they've been fooled a couple times. They also are learning that wrapping up in college is a lot tougher than in HS. But, UND got through this season, with some injuries to boot, and have a pretty decent defense. And for the first time all year it's healthy. (Healthy for the playoffs. Darn the bad luck. )

I'd say the coordinators did pretty well all things considered, and I'm looking forward to seeing a "year smarter" defense next season. They should be a lot of fun to watch.

What I like is that this year we really only lose Alexander, Meek, Cadwell, Weigelt, and a few supporting folks. A year ago that's all we were keeping!

What concerns me more is next year's offense. Losing Dressler, four offensive linemen, the starting FB and TE, and a couple others puts a lot of pressure on Dan Freund and Ryan Chappell (and Josh Murray) next year.

[The Sicatoka]

We run the ball way more than we did last year. We take less shots down the field. End arounds to Dressler are not as common. ... This year we seem to be a standard run the ball down their throats and move the ball effectively down the field with medium gain passes. In previous years, it seemed like it was an all or nothing pass play or a high risk and reward screen. This year we are giving those players a chance to make a difference based on the play calling.

That is because of the young defense of this team.

With a young defense a ball control offense becomes more critical. The more time your offense has the ball the less time your defense is on the field.

So how do you achieve this?

Run the ball more and go for short completions to keep the clock running. The key is first downs and possession. If you can pound it at the other team (running or low-risk passing) you are maintaining possession, gaining ground, and wearing out their defense. After doing this a while, yes, if it's there, you take the deep shot. However, if you have backs like Chappell and Murray, or run after catch receivers like Dressler and Trenbeath, more often than not the long pass doesn't happen because they break loose on a simple play.

[UND92,96]

What concerns me more is next year's offense. Losing Dressler, four offensive linemen, the starting FB and TE, and a couple others puts a lot of pressure on Dan Freund and Ryan Chappell (and Josh Murray) next year.

But at least we do return our two best offensive linemen in Braegelmann and Troen, plus Bondy has had to play quite a bit due to Bauer's injury, and I think Erik Moe has played some at guard, also. The line probably won't be as strong as it is this year, but it should still be pretty good.

[sIoUxPeRsTiTiOuS]

What has changed since last year? Sure Chappell is a year older and we had a steady QB in this year instead of the rotation caused by injuries last year. The players aren't the reason for the change. I notice a difference in the play calling. This year we have went away from the bubble screen, a big favorite of years past. We run the ball way more than we did last year. We take less shots down the field. End arounds to Dressler are not as common. And we are not as conservative as in years past. This year we seem to be a standard run the ball down their throats and move the ball effectively down the field with medium gain passes. In previous years, it seemed like it was an all or nothing pass play or a high risk and reward screen. This year we are giving those players a chance to make a difference based on the play calling.

Agree to disagree then. Same offense, same playcalling, same philosophy with a few tweaks here and there based on personnel. If I'm not mistaken, I believe the bubble screen is a check at the line of scrimmage for the QB to take whenever he deems necessary. I think teams are just taking that play away from us more this year because it has hurt them in the past. I would like to ask Coach Mussman if he has "changed the playcalling this year". I think you make adjustments every year to certain things that you like or dislike. However, I don't think an overhaul has been done on the general playcalling on offense. Running the ball has been a staple for many years. I remember 2 years ago when Chris Beatty ate up the UMD defense running the ball. I believe he had like 36 carries. Adam Roland and Jed Perkerewicz are two other examples. Game planning against certain teams strengths and weaknesses will dictate the playcalling week to week and year to year.

I also think we are taking more shots downfield this year than we ever have in the past. Chappel's abilties have opened that up for Dressler and Trenbeath. You said "we take less shots down field" and "we are not as conservative as in years past". Sounds contradicting to me.

[LennonIsTheMan]

Ultimately, Dale Lennon is the only one whose opinion really matters with regard to how the co-coordinator situation is working, and I do trust that he'll make the correct decision, whatever that decision may be.

I agree with this statement completely. Well said.

In Dale, We Trust...

[broken arrow]

I agree with this statement completely. Well said.

In Dale, We Trust...

Anyone watching the USD game last week would truly understand where the problem lies. Your defense is only as good as the down linemen. They got totally dominated in this game. When you can block the nosegard one on one with the center, it is going to be a long day for our linebackers. The forty times this year for the linemen was won by a offensive lineman. This doesn't bode well for the defense.

[sIoUxPeRsTiTiOuS]

But at least we do return our two best offensive linemen in Braegelmann and Troen, plus Bondy has had to play quite a bit due to Bauer's injury, and I think Erik Moe has played some at guard, also. The line probably won't be as strong as it is this year, but it should still be pretty good.

I think the biggest loss on the o-line will be Hoffelt. Very underrated at the tackle position. Some of the young hogs will have to step up immediately. Having Braegelmann and Troen back will be huge in terms of leadership at the o-line position. Time will tell how the o-line recruiting classes have been the last few years.

[UND92,96]

I think the biggest loss on the o-line will be Hoffelt. Very underrated at the tackle position. Some of the young hogs will have to step up immediately. Having Braegelmann and Troen back will be huge in terms of leadership at the o-line position. Time will tell how the o-line recruiting classes have been the last few years.

On one of the past coaches' shows this year, Lennon sounded very optimistic about some of the young offensive linemen. I'm also still waiting for the emergence of players like Koelln and Hiltner, who I believe were quite highly-regarded coming out of high school. Hiltner is gigantic, and made all the Minnesota all-state teams, including A.P. first team, and the guy who runs the Minnesota preps board was very high on Koelln.

[broken arrow]

On one of the past coaches' shows this year, Lennon sounded very optimistic about some of the young offensive linemen. I'm also still waiting for the emergence of players like Koelln and Hiltner, who I believe were quite highly-regarded coming out of high school.

Schroyer is one of the kids to watch. He is undersized but extremely explosive. Set a new O lineman record in the vertical jump this fall.