The lawsuit and DI

[DI IN FARGO]

Do you understand the difference between being willfully offensive, hostile and abusive in the workplace to coworkers and demanding that someone stop using a symbol or word because a small group of people finds it offensive? The argument isn't about whether free speech is protected everywhere in all situations. Obviously, it isn't.

If I'm offended because you fly the American flag on your front lawn every day, I don't have the right to force you to take it down. If you're offended because I burn the American flag on my front lawn every day, you don't have the right to stop me from doing that.

Get it?

I find it interesting that you just dismiss the people who don't agree with you as a "small group"

Whatdo you base this assumption on? Or is it just a way of making you feel your arguement against the NCAA is more legitimate?

Just curious.

[Diggler]

I find it interesting that you just dismiss the people who don't agree with you as a "small group"

Whatdo you base this assumption on? Or is it just a way of making you feel your arguement against the NCAA is more legitimate?

Just curious.

Before PCM comes here and gives you a big long explanation, I'll give you a one sentence summary. Pretty much every indication from scientific polls to number of people protesting at events.

[siouxforeverbaby]

I find it interesting that you just dismiss the people who don't agree with you as a "small group"

Whatdo you base this assumption on? Or is it just a way of making you feel your arguement against the NCAA is more legitimate?

Just curious.

because those against using the nickname are the minority that has been proven. as Diggler said the polls and the number of those at the protests have proved this.

[Goon]

I find it interesting that you just dismiss the people who don't agree with you as a "small group"

Whatdo you base this assumption on? Or is it just a way of making you feel your arguement against the NCAA is more legitimate?

Just curious.

It's pretty small, group of people. Dirty has broken it down already. Your not going to find a huge ground swell of people that want the name changed. Nor should it be because a SMALL vocal minority is offended by it. Like I have said before, I am offended by Hillary Clinton but they are not going to ban her from politics nor kick her out of the election.

DI IN Fargo and other Bison fans, whats going to happen next when the PC Zealots want to take the name Bison away because it's considered by some to be a sacred symbol, it's silly but it could happen. I would love to see how the rubes in Fargo would feel about that. It could happen being we live in such a hypersenative society anymore.

[PCM]

I find it interesting that you just dismiss the people who don't agree with you as a "small group"

Whatdo you base this assumption on? Or is it just a way of making you feel your arguement against the NCAA is more legitimate?

Just curious.

It's not an assumption. I base my statement on four things:

1. National, independent, scientific polls. The few that have been done show that 80 to 90 percent of American Indians nationwide aren't offended by sports teams using Native American nicknames. Only about 10 percent are offended by the nickname "Redskins."

2. A statewide, independent, scientific poll. The Fargo Forum poll showed that roughly two-thirds of American Indians in North Dakota either weren't offended by UND's use of the Fighting Sioux nickname or didn't care about the issue.

3. Personal experience. I've lived in Grand Forks for 15 years. I can count the number of protests against the nickname during that time on one hand and have fingers left over. None of those protests has ever drawn more than 100 people. That's with 400 American Indian students at UND and a substantial number of Native American faculty on campus.

4. Enrollment statistics. When UND's student enrollment was going up, the number of American Indian students enrolling went up, too. If most American Indians truly believed that UND was a racially hostile and abusive school, I'd expect NDSU, USD and SDSU to have a far greater American Indian enrollment. But in spite of its allegedly terrible reputation among Native Americans, UND tops them all.

[DI IN FARGO]

It's not an assumption. I base my statement on four things:

1. National, independent, scientific polls. The few that have been done show that 80 to 90 percent of American Indians nationwide aren't offended by sports teams using Native American nicknames. Only about 10 percent are offended by the nickname "Redskins."

2. A statewide, independent, scientific poll. The Fargo Forum poll showed that roughly two-thirds of American Indians in North Dakota either weren't offended by UND's use of the Fighting Sioux nickname or didn't care about the issue.

3. Personal experience. I've lived in Grand Forks for 15 years. I can count the number of protests against the nickname during that time on one hand and have fingers left over. None of those protests has ever drawn more than 100 people. That's with 400 American Indian students at UND and a substantial number of Native American faculty on campus.

4. Enrollment statistics. When UND's student enrollment was going up, the number of American Indian students enrolling went up, too. If most American Indians truly believed that UND was a racially hostile and abusive school, I'd expect NDSU, USD and SDSU to have a far greater American Indian enrollment. But in spite of its allegedly terrible reputation among Native Americans, UND tops them all.

Thank you for a a response that was well thought out, written and didn't have personal or snide attacks simply based on where I live. Goon you may want to take a lesson from your counterpart PCM.

[siouxforeverbaby]

Thank you for a a response that was well thought out, written and didn't have personal or snide attacks simply based on where I live. Goon you may want to take a lesson from your counterpart PCM.

if you are referring to Goon's previous post, where did he have a snide or personal attack based on where you live? He simply asked what you would think if somebody tried to take away the Bison nickname because they thought of it as a symbolic symbol. I don't want to make you mad because I enjoy reading your posts and you bring up good points. I was just pointing that out.

[Goon]

Goon you may want to take a lesson from your counterpart PCM.

There was nothing snide in my comments you might need to lighten up a bit. Rube is a term that is used on KFAN, it wasn't used in a negative conotation.

[Diggler]

It's not an assumption. I base my statement on four things:

1. National, independent, scientific polls. The few that have been done show that 80 to 90 percent of American Indians nationwide aren't offended by sports teams using Native American nicknames. Only about 10 percent are offended by the nickname "Redskins."

2. A statewide, independent, scientific poll. The Fargo Forum poll showed that roughly two-thirds of American Indians in North Dakota either weren't offended by UND's use of the Fighting Sioux nickname or didn't care about the issue.

3. Personal experience. I've lived in Grand Forks for 15 years. I can count the number of protests against the nickname during that time on one hand and have fingers left over. None of those protests has ever drawn more than 100 people. That's with 400 American Indian students at UND and a substantial number of Native American faculty on campus.

4. Enrollment statistics. When UND's student enrollment was going up, the number of American Indian students enrolling went up, too. If most American Indians truly believed that UND was a racially hostile and abusive school, I'd expect NDSU, USD and SDSU to have a far greater American Indian enrollment. But in spite of its allegedly terrible reputation among Native Americans, UND tops them all.

Told you I could sum it up in one sentence. I'm concise.

[DI IN FARGO]

There was nothing snide in my comments you might need to lighten up a bit. Rube is a term that is used on KFAN, it wasn't used in a negative conotation.

That term is generally used to describe someone with whom you feel is either an idiot or of lesser intelligence. I think if you ask the younger generation where the term originated what the meaning of Rube is you will find they wouldn't want to be described as "A Rube". It certainly doesn't infer a positive which if you read your reply it certainly wasn't meant as a compliment and hence was not necesary to even say in your response. Either way if people don't see that as an insult or meant in a derogatory manner then I can understand why you guys see things the way you do. Since Rube is just another term then I guess to say you guys are all rubes isn't an insult. Carry on all you Rubes.

[The Sicatoka]

If all it takes to force something to change is a small group of folks who are offended, I'm almost positive that I can find a group of American Indians who find use of the sacred (think: religious) symbols of the gifts of the Great Spirit as a sports team mascots offensive. And thus that usage would have to change, right?

[PCM]

That term is generally used to describe someone with whom you feel is either an idiot or of lesser intelligence. I think if you ask the younger generation where the term originated what the meaning of Rube is you will find they wouldn't want to be described as "A Rube".

I grew up hearing my father using "rube" as one of his favorite insults. That's probably why I've never been able to accept it as a term of endearment.

[Goon]

Since Rube is just another term then I guess to say you guys are all rubes isn't an insult. Carry on all you Rubes.

That is pretty much it. If I was going to insult you I call you something other than a RUBE.

[Wreckincrew]

If all it takes to force something to change is a small group of folks who are offended, I'm almost positive that I can find a group of American Indians who find use of the sacred (think: religious) symbols of the gifts of the Great Spirit as a sports team mascots offensive. And thus that usage would have to change, right?

I agree. NDSU is being hostile and abusive towards people who view the Bison as a sacred symbol.

Frankly, I am disgusted with NDSU's use of a symbol of the Great Spirit to sell T-shirts and foam fingers.

What

[DI IN FARGO]

I agree. NDSU is being hostile and abusive towards people who view the Bison as a sacred symbol.

Frankly, I am disgusted with NDSU's use of a symbol of the Great Spirit to sell T-shirts and foam fingers.

What

[Sioux-cia]

..I can understand why you guys see things the way you do.. Since Rube is just another term then I guess to say you guys are all rubes isn't an insult. Carry on all you Rubes.

The continued use of 'you guys' by posters grates on my nerves!!! I believe the term 'you guys' is widely used by 'rubes'. (My definition of 'rube' is someone who is lacking in education/social skills. FYI, the word you is also plural. There is no need and is grammatically incorrect to say/post 'you guys'.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

If you read the entire column....

I did.

While you may think that everyone is entitled to free speech, no matter how vulgar or offensive....

A major reason that a lot of people "think" this is because free speech is a Constituional right.

many places and municipalities already have added or are in the process of adding statues to the books, to block things that are just simply WRONG.

They are adding CONSTITUITONAL statutes; not to block free speech, but rather to limit where/when it can be expressed. This is no different than the early 20th Century limitation on so-called "fire in a crowded theater" expressions. You could always yell "fire"; the limitation was on where and when.

Illinois was an early adopter of the funeral protest limitation after we were visited by the"God hates fags" group. There's now a definite area around churches, funeral homes, cemetarys and the like where protests are not allowed. However, outside those limits (say in the downtown Chicago Civic Center plaza) that group can still yell all they like. They can still say "we're protesting the funeral of PFC John Doe, buried today in Chicago; he died because God hates the USA" as much as they want.

FWIW, in the period of time between their first protest and when the Illiniois law could be passed, one other thing happened. Some veterans groups/motorcycle groups got together and joined the funerals of servicemen coming home from Iraq. Lots of motorcycle engines drowned out the group from the church. One particuarly effective way of expressing your constituionally-guaranteed right of free expression on a windy day was to have a lot of people holding good-sized American flags. Those flags whipping in the wind also drowned out a the church protestors.

I can have a block party: I can't have it at 3:00 am. I can organize a St. Patrick's Day parade: but not on an expressway at 8:00 am.

I wrote:

Westboro Baptist Church to protest at the funeral of the Va Tech victims:

The article stated:

And an anti-gay group infamous for protesting at the funerals of U.S. soldiers has announced plans to picket the funerals of the Virginia victims.

Therefore...

I simply corrected Chief Illiniwek Supporter...

No, you didn't.

Civil disobiedence happens. They police break it up. That doesn't mean the original protest didn't occur. This group could have planned to break the law for all I know.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

It's not an assumption. I base my statement on four things:

1. National, independent, scientific polls....

3. Personal experience....

Something in-between these two observations happened at the University of Illinois. We spent a lot of money taking statements from any interested party about Chief Illiniwek (and by extension, the nickname). Obviously the "poll" wasn't scientific, but something between 85% and 95% of the people who bothered to say something supported Illiniwek.

Therefore, I agree with saying that the people who don't like nicknames using ethnic groups are a "small minority".

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

The continued use of 'you guys' by posters grates on my nerves!!!

Yeah, so if youse guys can't speak proper American, that means you ain't supposed to be posting here!

And also, whatever youse sez when you post with "youse guys" is irrelavant!

[Sioux-cia]

Yeah, so if youse guys can't speak proper American, that means you ain't supposed to be posting here!

And also, whatever youse sez when you post with "youse guys" is irrelavant!

Rube!!!

[jimdahl]

Nothing new emerges in UND Foundation-controlled litigation fund

Nothing new to see here...

The UND Foundation released documents April 10 stating attorneys with the Utah law firm Fabian and Clenendin had billed about $315,000 to the fund for their work as special assistant attorneys general in UND's lawsuit against the NCAA over the school's continued use of the Fighting Sioux nickname and logo.

Only about half of that money had been paid, according to the documents.

As of Monday, O'Keefe said, the foundation has not received any new bills from the Utah attorneys, nor have they made any more payments. And the fund still is empty.

A bill for about $7,000 also is outstanding to the office of North Dakota Attorney General Wayne Stenehjem, who is handling the case on UND's behalf.

[Sioux_Yeah_Yeah]

So when does this case go to court again? I am so confused with this whole process... what's happened, what is still to happen...

[Sioux-cia]

This article is dated May 10, 2007. Did I miss something? Again....

http://www.kxnet.com/t/und/122143.asp

UND president says school seeks outofcourt settlement...

[82SiouxGuy]

This article is dated May 10, 2007. Did I miss something? Again....

http://www.kxnet.com/t/und/122143.asp

That's all there was, a short note that he mentioned it at the University Council meeting. I think that either the Herald or WDAZ had it also. The judge told both sides that they should try to settle out of court so I am sure that UND has made at least some effort. But I don't see either side compromising enough to reach an agreement any time soon.

[Sioux-cia]

That's all there was, a short note that he mentioned it at the University Council meeting. I think that either the Herald or WDAZ had it also. The judge told both sides that they should try to settle out of court so I am sure that UND has made at least some effort. But I don't see either side compromising enough to reach an agreement any time soon.

Thanks. Reading the article, I thought maybe there was 'sit down' negotiating going on.