Potential for a D1 NCC

[teamsioux]

I don't know what JBB could possible have on his mind today, February 20th. I don't believe I have heard many Bison fans mention February 20th before!! Is their something special going in Bisonland today that we should all know about??

[jimdahl]

I don't know what JBB could possible have on his mind today, February 20th.

So, to bring the thread back around to the topic:

How will Big Sky's reaction affect UND? I've personally always thought it was about a 90%+ chance of Big Sky saying, "thanks, but the time isn't right, now," so I'll focus on that potential response. That could be a bit of a stumbling block to SDSU because they HAVE to find a conference affiliation to move. If they don't find one by the end of the summer, they may not resign from the NCC this season and would no longer be on the same timetable as NDSU. In that situation, NDSU may explore Gateway/MidContinent/independent (I wonder if SDSU is allowed to join a conference that's not all-sport?) Those schools being in a weaker conference position actually makes it more likely that UND could easily choose to join NDSU and/or SDSU at any time, but is not likely to provide UND a compelling case to move. Particularly if NDSU ended up independent and SDSU couldn't move, I can't imagine UND would find that attractive.

On the other hand, I think that NDSU and/or SDSU being accepted to Big Sky would be long-term positive for UND moving up. Though UND likely wouldn't be able to follow NDSU as easily in the short term, NDSU's position would be a much more compelling long-term draw. Further, Big Sky would be stacked with 1-2 more schools interested in adding Dakota teams than it is now.

As a fan wanting UND to move up, I guess I'm cheering for the (unlikely?) acceptance of NDSU/SDSU into Big Sky. On the other hand, things will change so much in the next 5-10 years (2004, Montana DIA?, etc...) that any such analysis is inherently short-sighted.

[jimdahl]

As expected, no decision was made but the leaning was unfavorable about accepting NDSU/SDSU.

[star2city]

What is the most interesting about the Big Sky situation is what is not reported:

In this morning

[JBB]

I think public opinion has changed a great deal in favor of the move. But, I cant help remembering Champman's words. "We have a provisional year. If things work out we move up, if not we stay where we are. What is there to lose?"

NDSU and SDSU should continue with the move as independents. The options are open and change is coming. The best thing to do is continue to develop the DI athletic programs as independents. A conference solution is certainly going to present itself in time so we should use the probationary period to enhance our programs to be competitive in DI and develop the type or relationships needed to be welcomed into a conference. The reason they have probationary periods is to allow for the transition.

[lawkota]

I see NDSU and SDSU parting ways here and frankly, I think that's good news for NDSU. SDSU's lack of a firm commitment to D-I has been an anchor to the Bison efforts.

Chapman's comments may get him labeled as a Pollyanna, but to me it shows that the man has a firm idea of where NDSU belongs in the world and he's willing to hold out for it. How long will depend on the Bison boosters. Could this still backfire bigtime on NDSU? Absolutely. But I for one will take no joy in seeing them fail.

[star2city]

But, I cant help remembering Champman's words. "We have a provisional year. If things work out we move up, if not we stay where we are. What is there to lose?"

According to your own people, the 'stellar' football recruiting class at NDSU had 'full' scholarships waved at them in a year or two. Not only that, they were promised that NDSU will be Div I-AA in football. Credibility would be lost, and a whole bunch of football recruits massively P.O.ed would be gained.

[star2city]

The reason they have probationary periods is to allow for the transition. 

JBB,

Are you a retired member of the French Diplomatic Corps, as your and Dominique de Villepin's logic are strikingly similar?

How about this as an answer: the NCAA has probationary periods to ensure Div I remains a monopolistic country club. Only existing members may reap the huge monetary benefits of the Men's basketball television contract. Prospective members need deep, deep pockets, or a lot of friends in the right places, for entry.

[star2city]

Chapman's comments may get him labeled as a Pollyanna, but to me it shows that the man has a firm idea of where NDSU belongs in the world and he's willing to hold out for it.

I have no problem with Chapman or anyone having a vision or a dream. I do however, have a problem when the difficulty and known obstacles of obtaining these dreams is never fully communicated to any of the constituents, be they alumni or taxpayers.

Could this still backfire bigtime on NDSU? Absolutely. But I for one will take no joy in seeing them fail.

Even remaining as an independent, I believe NDSU will make the I-AA playoffs within 2-3 years after their five year probation. But their other programs, especially basketball, will struggle even to reach Augustana's current level. If the move is all about football, its still a success.

[Bison_Kent]

There will never be a D1 NCC unless there are teams that are not currently in the NCC included. If NDSU does not get into the Big Sky, they have four years to find a conference. What is the difference if you are in a D-I-AA conference or if you are an independent? If a conference is not found right away, NDSU can play other conference teams from the Gateway, Ohio Valley and the Big Sky in home & home games. This will allow alumni and fans and administration from those schools show what NDSU has to offer. When they come to NDSU, they will see how impressive the school is and how well NDSU would fit into their conference.

Getting a new conference would be the last resort. The probation period for a new conference is a lot longer then if a current conference is found.

[star2city]

What is the difference if you are in a D-I-AA conference or if you are an independent? If a conference is not found right away, NDSU can play other conference teams from the Gateway, Ohio Valley and the Big Sky in home & home games.

For football, being an independent is 'easier' than other sports because relatively few games need to be scheduled. But the independent route is not helpful to generate and sustain fan interest, as rivalries don't develop.

For other sports, check with any Division I athletic director about the difficulty of being an independent, and see what their response is.

Getting a new conference would be the last resort. The probation period for a new conference is a lot longer then if a current conference is found.

Actually, for men's basketball, the probation time required for an automatic bid is the same (13 years) whether joining an established conference or beginning a new one, if the new conference is established immediately after the exploratory year.

[Bison_Kent]

What I was saying was that we (NDSU) will develope new rivalries and for two or three years it really won't matter if there is a new conference or if it is an independent schedule. They will all be new teams to the fans. The fanfare might be that team made it to the playoffs last year or that team has a local player on it. It is going to take time no matter if there is a conference or not to develop these rivalries.

As for your other response, you are correct with the basketball playoffs but football is different. If you have a current conference affliation then the time frame is 5 years from when you first declare for the reclassification; counting the one year of still being in Division II. If there is no current conference affliation, the waiting period is 8 years for independent teams or new conferences.

Basketball would not matter for NDSU as much as football. If there are some top teams like Minnesota or Wisconsin or Nebraska or Creighton that come to NDSU to play, the crowds will be there just to see the team play because they are a top team. This 13 year wait was just implimented. In my opinion,if you get associated with a conference with an automatic bid, it won't be 13 years to wait. That wait period is idiotic.

[star2city]

Basketball would not matter for NDSU as much as football.  If there are some top teams like Minnesota or Wisconsin or Nebraska or Creighton that come to NDSU to play, the crowds will be there just to see the team play because they are a top team. 

Bison_Kent:

You seem to have a good perspective of the issues and rules involved in the Div I transition. I agree totally that the 13 year wait period is idiotic. It also makes the transition to Div I more difficult then ever.

Are you concerned how Illinois I-AA schools view NDSU's recruiting success in the Chicago area? Schools like Ill St., E. Ill, W. Ill, S. Ill, and even N Iowa and Indiana St normally recruit heavily in the Chicago area and they may not look kindly on a new recruitment rival with good facilities. Scheduling games with NDSU would just make it easier for recruits to go to NDSU, as their friends and families wouldn't have to travel to Fargo to see them play. The views of Illinois I-AA schools could effect both scheduling and conference alignment with the Gateway, Ohio Valley, and the Missouri Valley. Should this be a concern?

If there are some top teams like Minnesota or Wisconsin or Nebraska or Creighton that come to NDSU to play, the crowds will be there just to see the team play because they are a top team.

Schools from top conferences will normally schedule away games only with other top conferences. This year's schedule showed that Minnesota played two non-conference road games: at Nebraska and at Oregon. Wisconsin played three non-conference road games: at Temple, and at Marquette and at Wisc-Green Bay. Both the latter games were almost neutral court games because so many Badger fans were there. Even Creighton played only three non-conference road games: at Nebraska, at Notre Dame, and at Xavier. If NDSU is able to schedule any name basketball team in Fargo, that would be a near miracle. It's not fair, but that's the way it is.

[Bison_Kent]

Are you concerned how Illinois I-AA schools view NDSU's recruiting success in the Chicago area?  Schools like Ill St., E. Ill, W. Ill, S. Ill, and even N Iowa and Indiana St normally recruit heavily in the Chicago area and they may not look kindly on a new recruitment rival with good facilities.  Scheduling games with NDSU would just make it easier for recruits to go to NDSU, as their friends and families wouldn't have to travel to Fargo to  see them play.  The views of Illinois I-AA schools could effect both scheduling and conference alignment with the Gateway, Ohio Valley, and the Missouri Valley.  Should this be a concern?

I don't think the Illinois, Iowa or Indiana schools would be too concerned. If they schedule a game and beat NDSU that should help their recruiting efforts. Of course, it might go the other direction if NDSU wins but that will put their recruiting efforts higher in the Chicago area. I think they would be wise to schedule. Otherwise, without a game, more recruits will come to NDSU; especially if NDSU wins and some of the players make it to the pro ranks; such as Lamar Gordon and the offensive linemen that have made it recently.

I agree with you on the basketball issue. Most likely the teams that would come to Fargo would be the lower end D-I teams. NDSU would go to the Wisconsin's and Minnesota's. After thinking about it, it might be wise for the non-football sports to get into some kind of conference such as the Mid-Continent or the Horizon. I have also posted that maybe NDSU should loose SDSU as a partner. Both the Horizon and Mid-Continent have 9 schools. They might be interested in adding one team but not two.

[star2city]

Bison_Kent:

There are a couple of schools rumored to be interested in moving to Div I in a year or two:

Central Oklahoma, which has a undergraduate enrollment approaching OU and OSU, and is hiring a new athletic director presumably to make the move,

Central Missouri, which was believed to be considering the move,

Nevada State, which is a major new university being constructed outside Las Vegas,

Wayne State (Mich), which has a huge enrollment and is Div I in hockey, may move all its programs up.

With these schools as well as Northern Colorado, Utah Valley State, which will begin Div I next year, as well as Div I independents IUPU-Fort Wayne, Tx-PanAm, and TxAMCC, there would seem to be the potential for enough members for a new non-football conference.

Do you think NDSU/SDSU would be interested?

[Bison_Kent]

Could we also add UND to that list? I think it would be possible but the first choice would be to get into an existing conference. I think Division I-AA would like a second true western conference so the Nevada State, Central Oklahoma, Southern Utah, Northern Colorado, NDSU, and SDSU, Utah Valley, and possibly one other western team be a great conference. Eight teams is the minimum needed to be considered for an automatic bid. I wouldn't add Wayne St. or Central Missouri. I think the place to expand I-AA is west. The Big Sky is the only true western conference now.

I have not heard of the Nevada State University. Do you have any information on this?

I think if a new conference is created it would be one for all sports not just football and another for the other sports.

[JBB]

I have always thought that a new conference might be the solution. But thats going to take time too. The thing for NDSU and SDSU is to continue to move ahead. A conference affiliation is a distinct possibility. That means we would be scheduled into a conference but would not be part of its champmionship competition. It is a very good option. It satisfies SDSUs obligation to have a conference before they move, solves a lot of scheduling headaches and gives us a chance to build the relationships we need to find full conference affiliation.

[BisonMav]

siouxrock

[The Sicatoka]

From the beginning of this saga, a few of the UND fans (me, jimdahl, others) said this would make much more sense if a group (conference-sized preferably) moved together.

- The conference issue goes off the table.

- The money issue is still there, but is more able to be forecasted and managed with a known conference schedule.

[Siouxrock]

y talk abotu it when it wont happen

[star2city]

the four former NCC teams would be a great base for a new conference. Adding western teams such as Southern Utah would help keep UNC in the fold. The eight year waiting period for Football? and 13 years for Basketball would be tough, but worth it.

The following I-AA football conference is just begging to happen:

NDSU

SDSU

UNColorado

SouthernUtah

Cal Poly-SLO

St. Mary's (Calif)

Cal-Davis

The likelihood of this football-only conference forming, in my opinion, is > 75%.

For non-football sports, the difficulty in forming a conference will be monumental in comparison. It is almost inevitable that some sort of conference would be attempted from the following four schools, as there will be no other options for them:

NDSU / SDSU

Northern Colorado / Utah Valley State

Only two other schools would be needed, (preferably four), and those pairs would need to be travel partners. Possible candidates would be:

Wayne State (Mich)/ IP-Fort Wayne (or Grand Valley State)

Texas A&M U-Corpus Christi / UTexas-Pan American

Central Oklahoma / Central Missouri

IP-Fort Wayne, TAMUCC, and UTPA would all hesitate as they are already full Div I members. IPFW has a reasonable chance of joining an established conference soon, but the Texas schools are getting desperate. None of the other schools have publicly announced Div I plans, but the availability of a conference would greatly reduce their risk in moving forward. Central Oklahoma would actually be shooting for Southland Conference membership, as that conference is actively seeking more football-playing members.

[Bison_Kent]

I see that Siouxrock is just as irritating on this site as he is on the bisonville site.

I think UND will eventually move up to I-AA and will be in the near future, 2-3 years. It might depend on NDSU & SDSU. If a new conference is the route NDSU & SDSU go, it will happen for sure in that time period. If an existing conference pick NDSU or SDSU, it might be tougher for UND.

NDSU waited a year to allow such a move to happen but it seems only SDSU has taken the offer. Time will tell. People think the Big Sky opportunity is not dead. I personally think it is but there still is the Gateway conference which only has 8 teams right now. But a non-football conference would also be needed.

I want the UND rivalry to continue even if it is a D2 vs. I-AA. I hope UND also moves up.

[star2city]

I have not heard of the Nevada State University. Do you have any information on this?

Nevada State was created by the Nevada Legislature to reduce enrollment pressures at Nevada-Reno and UNLV. Nevada's college population is supposed to increase by 70,000 within a decade. From nothing, Nevada State is expected to grow by at least 1000 students annually over the next decade.

The recent past president of Utah Valley State, which was formerly a junior college and now has 22,000 students and is in the process of moving to Div I, has become the president of Nevada State. It is anticipated he will also move Nevada State to the Div I level, but this is a number of years down the road.

[WYOBISONMAN]

In the end, given the cold shoulder from the BSC, I am still hoping for a new D1AA conference that has the stronger NCC institutions as the core. This would obviously include UND. Again, I am fairly sure that within the next couple of years UND will make the jump. That would give 4 schools (counting UNC) to start a conference. I think we could pick up a couple more looking Southern Utah and maybe even Davis if they don't find a home. Also there would be a chance that some other NCC schools would want to move up. That was my thought when I started this thread, and it really has not changed. I was hoping for the Big Sky, but I knew it was a long shot.

[Siouxrock]

i think if NDSU gets a conference, UND will move up. they are letting NDSU be the pigs here.(u no that scientists do testing on pigs)