MidCon Conference Decision on Tuesday

[SiouxMeNow]

I was the one that refered to the MidCon as the "Fat Chick"........but hey.......if ya gotta get laid by the Fat Chick......it's better than NO chick.......

And I still say the MidCon is not as desirable as the Big Sky, but you have to go with whom ever give you the invite......and in this case it is the MidCon and it will be a great home for the Bison......for now......The GWFC and no autobid does hurt however.

The big plus with the MidCon is that with Valpo leaving, the autobid to the Big Dance is more up for grabs than ever. NDSU should be able to put a program together that will challenge for that slot immediately......and that is truely a great thing!

well...you beat Wisconsin and we all know how far they went in the "big dance" last year

*PS - why did Valpo leave the mid-con???

[Bison Dan]

well...you beat Wisconsin and we all know how far they went in the "big dance" last year

*PS - why did Valpo leave the mid-con???

That's easy - running deficits , no vision, and poor leadership. Sound like any school you know.

[MplsBison]

Over on AGS it was mentioned by Ralph that if Western IL came over to the Great West (and we got more members) that the GWFC could be considered for autobid status in 2010!

[DI IN FARGO]

Over on AGS it was mentioned by Ralph that if Western IL came over to the Great West (and we got more members) that the GWFC could be considered for autobid status in 2010!

Pipe Dream

[MplsBison]

See how some NDSU fans are?

They actually want any possibilty that would include UND getting into the Great West to get shut down, for nothing more than trying to shut UND out. Even if it would help NDSU.

It's about as far from a pipe dream as you can get.

[rabidrabbit]

Pipe Dream

Here's the discussion about potential auto-bid requirements for the GWFC.

http://www.anygivensaturday.com/forum/show...0924&page=3

I'll note that having 6 active member (completely thru transition) + 2 years of those 6 members is the key.

Therefore, UND doesn't help get the conference there, until 2014. NEED an EXISTING ACTIVE D-I school to move to the GWFC. BTW, doesn't even need to currently be playing football. Western IL is one, U of San Diego, Drake, Eastern IL are all examples of schools that fit the need.

[bincitysioux]

This particular writer doesn't have alot of optimism for the future of the Mid-Con:

Mid-Continent Conference woes:

By BERRY TRAMEL

The Oklahoman

02-JUL-06

The Tulsa World listed potential additions to the Mid-Con: Dallas Baptist, IUPU-Fort Wayne, North Dakota State, South Dakota State, Texas-Pan American, Utah Valley State and Longwood (Va.).

Ugh. The Mid-Con is headed for disaster. The best scenario? A mass exodus. That's right, the disbanding of the league.

As is, the Mid-Con is poorly conceived. Travel budgets are ridiculous; national perception is non-existent.

ORU and UMKC both crave entry into the Missouri Valley but would settle for the Southland Conference. Centenary would like in the Southland. Southern Utah wants the Big Sky.............................................

........................Now is the time for ORU to bolt.

Just more evidence, IMHO, that in three to four years when UND is a DI "counter", the Mid-Con will likely be looking to add more members again.

[star2city]

I'll note that having 6 active member (completely thru transition) + 2 years of those 6 members is the key.

Therefore, UND doesn't help get the conference there, until 2014. NEED an EXISTING ACTIVE D-I school to move to the GWFC. BTW, doesn't even need to currently be playing football. Western IL is one, U of San Diego, Drake, Eastern IL are all examples of schools that fit the need.

Western Illinois would have to be insane to leave the Gateway, which is comprised mostly of Mo Valley teams. WIU is a football school and the Gateway gives it natural rivalries with Ill St and S Ill, which it doesn't have in basketball. For NDSU or SDSU fans to even think either Western or Eastern Illinois would consider the Great West is beyond laughable.

[aff]

This particular writer doesn't have alot of optimism for the future of the Mid-Con:

Mid-Continent Conference woes:

By BERRY TRAMEL

The Oklahoman

02-JUL-06

Just more evidence, IMHO, that in three to four years when UND is a DI "counter", the Mid-Con will likely be looking to add more members again.

How many schools can they lose before they autobid is gone again? I think you might have forgot about that core school requirement you were preaching about a month ago.

And when's that next southland/ mo valley expansion coming up? The mo. valley is very stable right now. All of those schools are really in a conference that is as high as they can hope for. And UMKC in the southland? I doubt it.

[star2city]

From Oklahoma City Oklahoman: Mid-Continent Conference woes

Oral Roberts, coming off its best athletic year since the 1970s, is caught in the crossfires of a disintegrating league. The Mid-Continent Conference is under siege. The Mid-Con has lost two members in recent months: its flagship school, Valparaiso, and Chicago State.

And it wasn't much of a conference to begin with. Little status and a geographical nightmare, stretching from Southern Utah to Centenary (Shreveport, La.) to Oakland (Detroit suburb).

...

As is, the Mid-Con is poorly conceived. Travel budgets are ridiculous; national perception is non-existent.

ORU and UMKC both crave entry into the Missouri Valley but would settle for the Southland Conference. Centenary would like in the Southland. Southern Utah wants the Big Sky.

Oral Roberts has more going for it than ever before in the conference shuffles. Oral Roberts has been solid in basketball and has established itself as a legitimate baseball power, having beaten Oklahoma State and Arkansas to reach a Super Regional earlier this month.

Now is the time for ORU to bolt.

Any conference can be resuscitated over time, but the new NCAA rules on membership continuity make a makeover of the MidCon a fifteen year challenge, which would be an exercise in futility if more than one core member leaves.

[aff]

From Oklahoma City Oklahoman: Mid-Continent Conference woes

Any conference can be resuscitated over time, but the new NCAA rules on membership continuity make a makeover of the MidCon a fifteen year challenge, which would be an exercise in futility if more than one core member leaves.

YES! So, if more than two core members leave, the amount needed for USD and UND to join, theres no point in joining because the autobid is gone! So what will UND do for a conference until 2016 or whatever when the midcon can expand? Theres no reason to go to 12, since there was no rush to expand when the conference was at a smaller number than that. If anybody is added, it will be UTPA out of desperation for the autobid, and a way to keep oral roberts in. I don't think many people understand that the chances of admission for any other NCC schools is pretty low for awhile.

[star2city]

YES! So, if more than two core members leave, the amount needed for USD and UND to join, theres no point in joining because the autobid is gone! So what will UND do for a conference until 2016 or whatever when the midcon can expand? Theres no reason to go to 12, since there was no rush to expand when the conference was at a smaller number than that. If anybody is added, it will be UTPA out of desperation for the autobid, and a way to keep oral roberts in. I don't think many people understand that the chances of admission for any other NCC schools is pretty low for awhile.

Actually agree with you, aff. If one core member goes, UTPA has to be invited. UTPA is looked at as the option of last resort. With the Southland not taking them, the MidCon is just keeping them as a reserve option.

So yes, UND is not likely headed for the MidCon soon. So that begs the rhetorical (to me, anyway) question: where is UND going? There is no way that Kupchella, as conservative as he is, would have authorized a move to DI without a conference and without financial backing. IMO, we will know what this option is before the MidCon invites NDSU and SDSU this fall.

[bincitysioux]

star2city, you understand this stuff better than I do:

31.3.4.2 Additional Requirements, Sports Other Than Men's Basketball. To be considered eligible for automatic qualification in a particular sport, a member conference (including a single-sport conference) must include six core institutions that satisfy continuity of membership. For the purposes of this legislation,core refers to an institution that has been an active member of Division I the eight preceding years. Further, the continuity-of-membership requirement shall be met only if a minimum of six core institutions have conducted conference competition together in Division I the preceding two years in the applicable sport. There shall be no exceptions to the two-year waiting period. Further, when any new member added to a conference that is satisfying the continuity of membership requirements, that new member shall not represent the conference as the automatic qualifier until it has been a Division I member for at least two preceding academic years. Any new member added to a member conference that satisfies the continuity of membership requirements shall be immediately eligible to represent the conference as the automatic qualifier."

Am I interpretting this correctly?

If NDSU & SDSU are indeed admitted to the Mid-Con starting in the 2007 season, then they would be considered core institutions starting in 2012? They would have been active members of DI for 8 years, and members of the Mid-Con for well over two years.

IIRC, the Mid-Con has six core schools, (I believe Centenary is not yet but will be in a year or two). IPFW is a core school, and if they join in 2007 they will satisfy the continuity-of-membership criteria by 2009. The Mid-Con will have 8 core DI institutions by 2009, and 10 three years later when NDSU & SDSU become core members.

[star2city]

Am I interpretting this correctly?

If NDSU & SDSU are indeed admitted to the Mid-Con starting in the 2007 season, then they would be considered core institutions starting in 2012? They would have been active members of DI for 8 years, and members of the Mid-Con for well over two years.

IIRC, the Mid-Con has six core schools, (I believe Centenary is not yet but will be in a year or two). IPFW is a core school, and if they join in 2007 they will satisfy the continuity-of-membership criteria by 2009. The Mid-Con will have 8 core DI institutions by 2009, and 10 three years later when NDSU & SDSU become core members.

The autobid requirements for men's basketball and other sports are different. The NCAA regulation quoted is for all sports but men's basketball, which are more stringent (requires seven core members + 6 core members together for five years). My interpretation:

There are two different requirements: a minimum number of DI "core" members and continuity of conference membership by the DI "core" members.

It takes five years to gain DI membership for any sport (unless one uses the two-sport exemption). It takes eight years beyond that to gain "core" DI status, which is maintained no matter what conference the school is in. So for NDSU and SDSU, they will be eligible in all sports in 2008-9 (even in basketball if they are in an auto-bid conference). But they won't become DI "core" members until 2016-17. The five years (for active DI status) + eight additional years (for DI "core" status) is why it would take 13 years for the NCC to move to DI and gain autobids.

Centenary has been a DI member for more than a few decades (Robert Parrish of the Celtics went there), so Centenary is a DI core member. After 2007, Centenary will be the 7th MidCon member to qualify for the continuity-of-membership criteria, so, at that time, the MidCOn would need to lose two members to lose its autobids. With IPFW joining the conference as an 8th core member in 2007-8, in 2009-10 the MidCon would have 8 core members satisfying continuity of membership requirements for all sports but men's basketball. In 2012, IPFW would also satisfy continuity of membership requirements for men's basketball.

(At least this is my interpretation . )

By accepting non-core members, the MidCon is really giving a boost to NDSU and SDSU. It would be interesting to know what sort of exit fees may be imposed on NDSU and SDSU relative to IPFW if they should leave before 2016, as NDSU and SDSU do not help the MidCon whatsoever maintain its autobid until that year. Because of DI core status, a school like UC-Davis would be much less valuable to the WAC, relative to Sac St, until 2015. Because of the DI core membership issue, I personally thought UTPA would get MidCon membership, even though NDSU and SDSU are much stronger academic and athletic institutions. The NCAA has imposed scarlet-letter type status on DI transitioning schools, which makes positioning oneself for conference membership before the DI move all the more critical.

[89rabbit]

SDSU Athletic Director Dr. Fred Oien and Mid-Con Commissioner Tom Douple were both interviewed on "The Sports show with Brad & Scotty", on our local ESPN Radio affiliate. You can listen using the links below:

http://www.brookingsradio.com/sports.htm

http://www.brookingsradio.com/FREDOIEN6-28-06.mp3

http://www.brookingsradio.com/douple6-29-06lo.mp3

Special thanks to rabbitman from bringing these to my attention.

[filbert]

I wrote an article on my blog, here which discussed the core membership issue.

I take the most conservative approach that the eight-year D-I membership criterion for becoming a core member starts at the end of the five-year D-I transition period (hence the legendary 13 year wait for the entire NCC, should it decide to go D-I).

Anyway, assuming the Mid-Con takes IPFW, SDSU, and NDSU starting 2007-08, here's what I now calculate as being the core teams for the conference:

2006-07: 7 members--IUPUI, Oakland, Oral Roberts, Southern Utah, UMKC, Valparaiso, Western Illinois

2007-08: 6 members--IUPUI, Oakland, Oral Roberts, SUU, UMKC, Western Illinois (Valpo departs, conference falls below 7-core-member criterion, two-year NCAA auto-bid grace period begins; IPFW's five-year count towards conference continuity begins)

2008-09 to 2009-12: 7 members--Centenary, IUPUI, Oakland, Oral Roberts, SUU, UMKC, WIU (In 2008, Centenary becomes a core member and two-year NCAA grace period gets re-set; SDSU and NDSU become full D-I, starting the eight-year count towards being core-eligible)

2012-13 to 2015-16: 8 members--Centenary, IPFW (begins sixth year of conference membership in 2012), IUPUI, Oakland, Oral Roberts, SUU, UMKC, WIU

2016-17: 10 members--Centenary, IPFW, IUPUI, NDSU (9th year in D-I), Oakland, Oral Roberts, SDSU (9th year in D-I), SUU, UMKC, WIU

So, if my calculations are correct, the earliest the Mid-Con can afford to lose one more core member is the 2010-11 school year--two years prior to IPFW's becoming a core member.

It's possible that the NCAA might bend the 8-year rule to include four of the five transition years (i.e. all but the exploratory year), if the alternative would be to pull the Mid-Con's auto-bid. The NCAA bylaws specifically prohibit waiving of the five-year conference competiton rule but notably does not explicitly prohibit waving the 8-year D-I membership rule. Given how the NCAA rules are currently written, it is possible that if the conference has made moves to maintain their viability, the NCAA might (emphasis might) waive the eight year rule to allow it to keep its autobid, but the first year that becomes a possibility due to NDSU and SDSU is 2013-14 (or possibly 2012-13, depending on how the NCAA views that year of 2007-08 when the SU's would compete in the conference but wouldn't be championship-eligible).

Any way you look at it, the Mid-Con is walking through a membership minefield for at least the next four years or so.

(So, in other words, I pretty much agree completely with star2city . . . )

[Sioux-cia]

Is the invite a shoe in? What could prevent NDSU getting the invite?

[filbert]

Is the invite a shoe in? What could prevent NDSU getting the invite?

I guess the obvious answer is "a really disastrous site visit." I think all three of IPFW, SDSU, NDSU are in unless the site visits go really poorly.

[Sioux-cia]

I guess the obvious answer is "a really disastrous site visit." I think all three of IPFW, SDSU, NDSU are in unless the site visits go really poorly.

What are they looking for? Stadiums, capacity, ..

[filbert]

What are they looking for? Stadiums, capacity, ..

The Mid-Con commissioner said that they'd be doing basically the same kinds of reviews (compliance, financials, etc.) that the NCAA does when coming in for periodic studies of the member institutions. Since NDSU and SDSU are being annually reviewed up the wazoo as a part of the reclassification procedure, it's a bit difficult to envision what the Mid-Con's site visit teams could come up with that would stall the process. They might for instance tell SDSU "geez, you really need to do something about your track & field facility" (which is totally true), and I'm sure SDSU's answer will be "funny you should say that, we've got a new t&f facility on our facilities timeline for 2010 (or whatever)."

Still, it ain't over till it's over, so until everybody is standing around a podium at a news conference, smiling, shaking hands, and signing contracts, the road is still uphill.

[Hammersmith]

You didn't get it quite right, filbert. As star2city said earlier, core member status is independent of conference. Once you are an active member for 8 years, you are a core member forever. Thus, IPFW immediately satisfies the core member requirement even if they don't satisfy the continuity of membership requirement. Here is a corrected version of the timeline. The first number given is the number of core members that have played together for at least 5 years, and the second number is the total number of core members. Remember that men's basketball requires 6/7 for autobid. Asterisks are for continuity counters, bold type is for changes to filbert's timeline, italics are for non-core members.

Anyway, assuming the Mid-Con takes IPFW, SDSU, and NDSU starting 2007-08, here's what I now calculate as being the core teams for the conference:

2006-07: 7/8 members--IUPUI*, Oakland*, Oral Roberts*, Southern Utah*, UMKC*, Valparaiso*, Western Illinois*, Centenary

2007-08: 6/8 members--IUPUI*, Oakland*, Oral Roberts*, Southern Utah*, UMKC*, Western Illinois*, Centenary, IPFW, NDSU, SDSU (Valpo departs, conference falls below 7-core-member criterion, two-year NCAA auto-bid grace period begins; IPFW's five-year count towards conference continuity begins)

2008-09 to 2009-12: 7/8 members--Centenary*, IUPUI*, Oakland*, Oral Roberts*, SUU*, UMKC*, WIU*, IPFW, NDSU, SDSU (In 2008, Centenary becomes a core member continuity counter and two-year NCAA grace period gets re-set; SDSU and NDSU become active D-I, starting the eight-year count towards being core members)

2012-13 to 2015-16: 8/8 members--Centenary*, IPFW* (begins sixth year of conference membership in 2012), IUPUI*, Oakland*, Oral Roberts*, SUU*, UMKC*, WIU*, NDSU, SDSU

2016-17: 8/10 members--Centenary*, IPFW*, IUPUI*, NDSU (9th year in D-I), Oakland*, Oral Roberts*, SDSU (9th year in D-I), SUU*, UMKC*, WIU*

So, if my calculations are correct, the earliest the Mid-Con can afford to lose one two more core members is the 2010-11 2014-15 school year--two years prior to IPFW NDSU and SDSU becoming core members.

So the Mid-Con is a bit more stable than your original timeline suggested, but I wouldn't call it completely stable by any means. The only time the conference is right on the line is in 2007-8, when there are only 6 continuity counters. The 2-year grace period would cover that, if necessary. Any one member can leave at any time, but a second core defection before 2014 would kill the autobid. The only part of the revised timeline that I am unsure of is whether NDSU and SDSU will satisfy the continuity requirement in 2016 when they become core members, or 5 years later in 2019. I chose the conservative interpretation in my version.

[Sioux-cia]

UND has had D1 hockey since forever. Why doesn't that count for something?

[89rabbit]

UND has had D1 hockey since forever. Why doesn't that count for something?

No smack intended here, because in the NCAA's eyes you are a D-II school competing in a single sport at the D-I level.

[filbert]

You didn't get it quite right, filbert. As star2city said earlier, core member status is independent of conference. Once you are an active member for 8 years, you are a core member forever. Thus, IPFW immediately satisfies the core member requirement even if they don't satisfy the continuity of membership requirement. Here is a corrected version of the timeline. The first number given is the number of core members that have played together for at least 5 years, and the second number is the total number of core members. Remember that men's basketball requires 6/7 for autobid. Asterisks are for continuity counters, bold type is for changes to filbert's timeline, italics are for non-core members.

So the Mid-Con is a bit more stable than your original timeline suggested, but I wouldn't call it completely stable by any means. The only time the conference is right on the line is in 2007-8, when there are only 6 continuity counters. The 2-year grace period would cover that, if necessary. Any one member can leave at any time, but a second core defection before 2014 would kill the autobid. The only part of the revised timeline that I am unsure of is whether NDSU and SDSU will satisfy the continuity requirement in 2016 when they become core members, or 5 years later in 2019. I chose the conservative interpretation in my version.

OK, I'll buy that. I wonder if the NCAA could have possibly been more obscure in their bylaw writing?

[Hammersmith]

OK, I'll buy that. I wonder if the NCAA could have possibly been more obscure in their bylaw writing?

I don't think they could. I spent many hours last weekend trying to figure out the GWFC autobid situation and still got almost all of it wrong. I ended up talking to ralph from I-AA.org to get everything straightened out since he had spoken directly with the NCAA. (2010 if we can get an active member by 2008; 2014 if we have to wait for UND) Everytime I dig into those bylaws, I come out needing a cigarette and a drink - and I don't smoke and rarely imbibe.