Restart Wrestling Program at UND?

[star2city]

When NDSU moves to Division I, there will be no Division II wrestling programs remaining in North Dakota. This, in my view, would be an injustice, as top high school wrestlers would have few meaningful choices in-state except for the very few exceptional athletes who can wrestle at Div I. With new athletic offices set to built near the Old Engelstad, and the Old Engelstad itself to be refurbished, this would seem to be the idea time to relook at reinstating wrestling as a program. If Title IX requirements are eased (see thread in hockey), the legal situation changes entirely from the 1990

[NDSU grad]

I don't see NDSU dropping wrestling. In all reality, nobody wrestles in a conference because of the very small number of wrestling programs. I think there are 5 schools in the Big 12 that sponsor wrestling, for instance. Also, I don't think the probationary period in wrestling will matter either because there are alot of good high school wrestlers that don't get any scholarship money for a few years. In response to whether UND should sponsor wrestling again, I think it would be a great opportunity for them if Title IX restrictions are relaxed. I would guess there might be a some infusion of money from the hockey program that could be diverted to wrestling. Just speculation, though.

[tony]

Star2city, it's a shame that you post anything about NDSU because on other topics you can be rational - although I think that you will be disappointed by the number of wrestlers that would be getting football or track scholarships.

On one hand, you are right; UND should add wrestling.

On the other, everything you wrote about NDSU's wrestling program is hogwash. I doubt that you'd be willing to demonstrate the strength of your convictions about NDSU dropping its wrestling program by taking up a legal wager of some sort, but for my part, I'd be willing to bet that NDSU will not drop wrestling in the next five years. If you take this bet and lose, you will swear not to write or speak about NDSU, except in an unreservedly positive manner, for an entire year. You can come up with a similar penalty for me.

If you are unwilling to take this bet because you know deep down that what you wrote is BS, then why did you write it in the first place?

[The Sicatoka]

Far be it from me to get in between 'tony' and 'star2city', but I feel obliged to ask what 'star2city' said to rile up 'tony.'

The only words directly stating "NDSU" were:

When NDSU moves to Division I, there will be no Division II wrestling programs remaining in North Dakota.

Won't that be the case?

Furthermore, the loss of NDSU and SDSU from the NCC would drop wrestling sponsorship down to three NCC schools ...

[tony]

In my view, S2C's stated two things about NDSU. First, he is saying that NDSU is going to drop wrestling. The stuff about conferences and travel are supporting arguments for this idea, not separate contentions - otherwise what relation do they have with the central idea that UND should add wrestling? Second, he is saying that NDSU is vacating a need... HUH!? Who the hell dropped wrestling in the first place?

His only other errors were that he doesn't seem to know that St. Cloud State has wrestling and that he thinks that wrestlers are going to be getting track and football scholarships. Unlike his stuff about NDSU, at least he wasn't trying to work in a jab - he was just mistaken.

This "I'm just asking questions" and "I'm just repeating what I heard" crap is getting pretty old, particularily when you yourself tend to use the technique to insinuate things about NDSU.

All I'm asking is that if he really thinks that NDSU is doomed to drop wrestling that he would show that he believes what he is insinuating.

[The Sicatoka]

OK, you addressed me. I'll play.

There is talk ....

There is talk about dropping programs. There is talk about the Big Sky. There talk about higher student fees. There is all kinds of talk. It's cheap. Plus, this is a discussion forum. You come here to talk. If you can't handle it, don't come. If you can refute it, fire away, but don't resort to schoolyard-like challenges.

We'll all get to see what all the "talk" really turns into as far as reality down the road. History keeps a great scorecard.

Regarding scholarships: If an athlete gets, for example, a full-ride baseball scholarship and then walks onto the basketball team (and makes it) the full ride counts against the maximum for BOTH baseball and basketball. Why? So you don't have schools with 6'8", 350 pound "downhill skiers" who "just happen" to walk onto the football team and end up as the starting left tackle. (Yes, some schools do offer skiing scholarships.) I'm not sure where that fits in here but it does somehow.

I'm done. (And I'm surprised I haven't gotten slammed by 'forecheck' for that other comment yet. )

[jimdahl]

Looks like it could be a moot point, anyway. The Commission on Opportunity in Athletics has rejected the proposed changes to Title IX.

* 7-7 deadlock on the proposal to change male/female requirements from proportional to institutional representation to 50/50 with a leeway of 2-3% (Commissioner Lisa Graham Keegan was not present for that vote)

* 11-4 against eliminating the proportionality requirement

* Commissioners stressed that the Education Department should start enforcing sanctions against schools that don't comply with Title IX (there has never been a punitive enforcement action in the past)

My understanding is that this body has no actual power, but just advises the Education Secretary, Rod Paige. However, this is a big setback for the movement.

[tony]

Sicatoka, the only thing you got right was that talk is cheap. I'm trying to find out just how cheap Star2City's talk is. I'm not going to debate him because I don't even think he believes his line of BS.

BTW, could you fill in the blank in the following sentence: "I think that there is a ___% chance that NDSU will drop wrestling in the next five years."

I'd say that there is a 1% chance but not for any of the reasons that Star2City gave.

[The Sicatoka]

I didn't say where any of that talk was, or in what context, so I got it all right.

A number? That's not my dog in the fight and I don't have my random number generator nearby.

PS - I'd say Title IX would do in the wrestling program before travel, but both of those relate back to dollars and how and where they are spent.

[nodakvindy]

OK, I'll play.

I think there is a 33% chance that NDSU will drop wrestling in the next five years.

With the additional 27 scholarships going to football, there will also need to be 27 new scholarships for women. This likely means two new women's sports, which will likely be money losers for NDSU. They may get by adding a single sport and adding additional scholarships in other sports. I am not sure if that would be feasible. I would guess that NDSU offers the max in scholarships in all sports they currently field. Some sports may have a higher number of allowed scholarships at Division I, but this difference is almost certainly not enough to absorb all 27 scholarships and therefore an additional women's sport must be added. It also appears that in order to join the Big Sky Conference, NDSU would have to add men's and women's tennis. Failure to add men's tennis was part of what made Cal-State Northridge leave the Big Sky.

Of course, the other option in reaching equality is dropping men's sports. Looking at the Big Sky Conference sponsorships, baseball and wrestling are the main options. I know that NDSU was a partner in the building of Newman Outdoor Field, a fine facility. I think it would be difficult to drop baseball, although in a northern climate, DI NDSU baseball has virtually no chance of success. The College World Series is almost an entirely southern event.

So I would say it is almost assured that NDSU will drop a men's sport, I think it is about a 2/3 chance it will be baseball, and a 1/3 chance it will be wrestling.

[JBB]

The construction of the new horse racing track in Fargo opens the door for NDSU to join the growing national trend for women's equestrian sports.

[star2city]

In my view, S2C's stated two things about NDSU. First, he is saying that NDSU is going to drop wrestling. ... Second, he is saying that NDSU is vacating a need... HUH!?

Where was it stated explicity that NDSU will drop wrestling? What was stated is that NDSU will be vacating Div II for Div I. The effect of this change on North Dakota high school wrestlers is unmistakable: fewer college opportunities for excellent but not extraordinary high school wrestlers. It would seem, that just in the spirit of civic responsibility, some institution should step up and provide those opportunities.

If you would take the time to read some posts on thematforums.com, there are passionate posts written about the impact of Div I on wrestling at NDSU and SDSU and the potential for the loss of wrestling at these schools. SDSU wrestling alumni seem especially concerned. They lament the loss of wrestling at any school and would rejoice if any school restarted it. If this is a minority voice you are not interested in even hearing, so be it.

His only other errors were that he doesn't seem to know that St. Cloud State has wrestling and he thinks that wrestlers are going to be getting track and football scholarships

Actually, there is another one: North Dakota High Schools also sponsor boys soccer. Certainly, the presence of a wrestling program may be a deciding factor for a select group of football lineman or field event athletes who see wrestling as a possible fallback option.

This "I'm just asking questions" and "I'm just repeating what I heard" crap is getting pretty old, particularily when you yourself tend to use the technique to insinuate things about NDSU.

How about reading anything you want into a post, just because I've been critical of NDSU's Div I decision in the past? Tony, have you ever considered that just bringing up this topic would probably not exactly win a popularity contest with the UND administration, especially in the context of Chalenor vs UND?

As the moderator of the Bisonvillecom, for consistency would you kindly be as vigilent in policing clearly offensive posts about UND as you seem to be interested in policing any reference to NDSU on this forum?

BTW, could you fill in the blank in the following sentence: "I think that there is a ___% chance that NDSU will drop wrestling in the next five years."

I think that there is a 40% chance that SDSU will drop wrestling in the next five years (if they go Div I).

I think that there is a 10% chance that NDSU will drop wrestling in the next five years.

Based on:

I think that there is a 30% chance that NDSU will actually gain affiliation with an established conference in the next five years.

I think that there is a 30% chance that NDSU will drop wrestling if it gains affiliation with an established conference in the next five years.

I think that there is a 1% chance that NDSU will drop wrestling if it stays independent or joins a new conference in the next five years.

Result: (0.3 x 0.3) + (0.7 x 0.01) = 0.10 = 10% chance

Just my two cents.

[BisonMav]

Todays Fargo Forum:

"NDSU has eight men

[tony]

If you couldn't tell, star2city, part of what gets me riled up is when people mince around issues rather than saying what they actually think - especially when they use this technique so they can say anything negative they want with impunity because they are "only asking a question" or "just repeating something they heard."

Did you explicitly say, "I think that NDSU is going to drop wrestling?" No.

You wrote that NDSU is going to have a tough time finding a conference for wrestling immediately before a sentence in which you repeat rumors that NDSU is going to drop wrestling.

Writing that NDSU will probably not find a home for conference wrestling doesn

[UND92,96]

BTW, there's a search engine on bisonville board. Why don't you look to see all the rumors that have been spread about UND?

tony-

How about this little gem which can be found on your website?:

"There has been some muttering (can a person whine and mutter at the same time?) up in Grand Forks that UND wasn't going to play NDSU next year because they are flouncing mad over this, that, and the other thing. Like almost everything wafting down from UND's direction, this rumor has the smell of bull crap. NDSU is still in the NCC for one more year and UND can't pick and choose which NCC teams they're going to play."

Please enlighten us as to where or from whom you supposedly heard about this rumor.

[tony]

Hahahaha! Good one!

Yeah, actually I had received a couple emails from people panicked because they had heard that NDSU wasn't going to play UND next year and I responded in a very forceful manner to squash the rumor and mock UND at the same time. If you show any doubt when confronting a rumor, you aren't effective countering it. I consider this another example of a rumor circulated purely out of malice for NDSU.

However, just by the style of prose you should be able to tell that I'm going over the top with it - as people often do when attempting to be humorous. As has been pointed out many times before, I'm not good at it - even though I thought "flouncing mad" was a nice turn of phrase.

Anyhow, I thought that I had read a message on this very board suggesting that UND should/might refuse to play NDSU because of the controversy over NDSU's PA announcers not calling UND's team the "Fighting Sioux", however, since I can't remember the exact wording and this board gets a great deal of activity, it's hard to track down the post in question. Although there have been plenty of hints from Roger Thomas that the rivalry would end because of NDSU moving up, I wouldn't characterize his hints as being inpsired by him being flouncing mad about something - he is just completely unable, like star2city and sicatoka, to express a thought except by alluding to it.

[JBB]

My question is this: did Thomas have his green hockey wig on when he made the comment?

Your right Tony, there have been posts that have called for an immediate end to the competition regardless of conference rules. We will play next year no matter what Hockey Roger "you kids can have fun anyway" Thomas says or any of the other "fans" for that matter.

It's 2004 when UND will have to face their future. NDSU will always have the door open. My guess is a home/home will be acceptable for the NDSU BISON. If they quit it's going to be an admission of inferiority and a public relations disaster for the fighting sue.

[jimdahl]

Your right Tony, there have been posts that have called for an immediate end to the competition regardless of conference rules.  We will play next year no matter what Hockey Roger "you kids can have fun anyway" Thomas says or any of the other "fans" for that matter.

Again, JBB, can you cite this quote from Roger Thomas? I don't recall Thomas saying we weren't playing NDSU next year in any sport. If you're just rumor-mongering and Sioux-bashing as usual, we're not interested.

By the way, your childish digs misspelling UND and its team name are also not welcome here.

[JBB]

Thomas, at least to my knowledge, did not say it would be discontinued next year, and I dont think I said that, but he has said that the future of the rivarly would be open to evaluation. Others however have come out and stated it bluntly. Especially after the actions of the NDSU Student Senate with regards to using the name. The point I was making was the game would go on next year no matter what Thomas says unless he is going to accept a forfiet. After all, it is an NCC game.

What do you mean childish digs? Roger Thomas did appear in a green wig at the Ralph last season to show the kids how they could have a good time without standing up and blocking the view of the as he put it "our most important fans". I thought it was a very good move and dont want to see it forgotten. Identifying him with his own actions can hardly be considered a dig, unless others feel his behavior was not appropriate.

I still believe the future of the rivalry is in your hands. NDSU will always keep the door open and I think they would be open to a home/home competition. I don't see any way the rivalry could be discontinued without a truly disastrous public relations problem. If UND were to discontinue the competition they certainly couldnt accept any other DIAA games.

[jimdahl]

I said:

By the way, your childish digs misspelling UND and its team name are also not welcome here.

JBB said:

What do you mean childish digs?

I think my meaning was very clear, but I'll spell it out AGAIN: I want you to discontinue your intentional misspellings of UND and its team name on these forums.

[PCM]

I don't see any way the rivalry could be discontinued without a truly disastrous public relations problem.

I think you're right that it would be a PR disaster -- for NDSU -- as it was that university which decided to leave the NCC. Nobody, except perhaps delusional Bison fans, is going to blame UND for not wanting to play NDSU when it goes DIAA.

[BisonMav]

I think the PR thing is overblown. Over time due to the scholarship differences, I can see that NDSU and UND could stop playing each other. Doesn't matter to me on bit who cancels first.

[JBB]

It will matter, and it's going to be a huge deal. If UND quits, and it seems like they eventually might, they wont be able to play any other DiAA football teams in the country. That will be the test.

After next year the games will be non conference and scheduling problems will not be an excuse. If UND is going to play any DIAA football games they are going to have to include the BISON. If they are going to play exclusively in DII, and that's certainly likely, then they can bow out, but I think it's clear across the state of North Dakota that NDSU is ready, willing, and able now and long into the future.

What color of wig will Roger Thomas wear when he announces the end of the series?

Iowa and Iowa State went through something similar and they have continued to play. GO STATE!!!!

As far as the name thing goes. I will respect your wishes, but I will comply with the resolution recently passed by the NDSU Student Senate. On the other hand I would hope the board would stay clear of statements like the yellow stream etc etc etc.

[forecheck]

I'm done. (And I'm surprised I haven't gotten slammed by 'forecheck' for that other comment yet. )