2004 D2 scholarship reductions?

[tony]

Man, I love bugging UND fans - sorry if I'm annoying you... oh, who am I kidding? I gotta disagree - NDSU is no way, shape, or form moving up to DI to "dilute" it. You can say that it doesn't matter what NDSU actually does and that it is only the perception of other DI schools that matters, but you'd be wrong. NDSU isn't moving up to DI without any intention of fully funding football and basketball. We're moving up with the full intention of adding football national championship banners to NDSU's formidable collection. Nor is NDSU going to be crying about how much scholarships cost. This puts NDSU in a totally different category than the schools that have come, are coming, and will be coming into DII.

DI-AA is what DII used to be, that much we can agree on. That NDSU will be in a second division in football is also true - even if DI-A and DI-AA combine, the BCS teams will have their bowl games and everybody else will play in the playoffs. And that would be outstanding for NDSU as far as I'm concerned.

Which brings me to Sicatoka's other speculations about the NCAA. How laughable is it to want NDSU to act like scholarship reductions can be avoided even though it's a 99.9% certainty and that far less likely decisions about revamping DI are a good possibility? Now that's irony. You'd think that if your school was making a decision about its longterm future that you'd want them to act on what will happen rather than on what almost certainly will not. Making it even more funny is that I'm guessing he brought up the list of possible enhancements to DI-AA participation (their words, not mine) because he thinks that should mean that schools like NDSU should avoid DI when it makes DI more attractive, not less.

On a more petty note, the NCC was NOT a powerful DII conference, it was a weak one and that's why it stayed in DII. For example, only Northern Iowa, NDSU and SDSU had had any national success. NDSU pretty much dragged the rest of the conference, kicking, screaming, and whining all the way to where it is now. Or maybe I'm just rattling your cage again.

[bisonguy]

NDSU pretty much dragged the rest of the conference, kicking, screaming, and whining all the way to where it is now. Or maybe I'm just rattling your cage again.

tony,

That was the case until scholarship reductions made the division a shell of it's former glory.

BisonKent,

In 1998, less than 40 percent of DII schools offered over 30 (not even 36) scholarships. I doubt that number has increased any, and I believe I saw a report somewhere that stated it had dropped to about 30 percent in 2002.

[UND92,96]

tony,

That was the case until scholarship reductions made the division a shell of it's former glory.

Of course, it doesn't say much for NDSU's football program if they can't win anything more prestigious than the coveted "best team in Fargo" award over the past 8-10 years in this shell-of-its-former-self division.

[bisonguy]

All it says is that the division is watered down. NDSU was a victim of this tragedy, that is akin to affirmative action. [sarcasm] Hey, let's throw a NSIC team into the playoffs every year, because it'll be fair, and the right thing to do! [/sarcasm] Of course, this is somewhat a jab at the regional format of the playoffs that still doesn't make sense.

[tony]

At least there was a rationale for affirmative action. With DII, it's like a guy buying a car then wanting the bank to lower the price because it is too expensive and then telling everybody else in town with a nice car that they should relace their engines with Chevette power plants.

I wasn't necessarily thinking about football only, NDSU set the standard as an athletic department as a whole. Yeah, NDSU's success has resulted in a lot of whining and jealousy (not that UND fans would ever be that petty) but it has also resulted in some good progress by the other schools in the NCC so that now the conference is one of the best in DII - and having NDSU, SDSU, UNC, and Morningside leave might actually make it seem better to UND fans since less competition at the conference level means more postseason opportunities at the national level.

It's a measure of both NDSU's tradition and DII's poor condition that a semi-final appearance in 2000 (something that is a true rarity for other NCC teams), is considered a sign of weakness. If you can look at NDSU's last two recruiting classes and the new coaching staff and still not see an avalanche of whoop ass coming UND's way, then... oh, who am I kidding, the future should always remain a complete surprise to UND's administration, media, and fans. "What? NDSU is actually going DI? I thought it was just a lie to get UND to follow suit. And what's this? DII cut scholarships again? Wow! I sure didn't see that coming."

[Siouxrock]

IF u look at northern Iowa, they are in budget trouble and hey are makin cuts

[Bison_Kent]

Northern Iowa?? What does that have to do with this topic. NDSU right now has more finacial support then Northern Iowa does right now. After being in Division I fully, NDSU will have even more support. Northern Iowa is the third university in Iowa. Iowa and Iowa State have the top billing in that state. It would be like saying Minot State is not finanially stable as NDSU & UND. All are state funded schools but the top two get more students and more state funding. And what does Northern Iowa mean to D2 scholorship reductions? Plus, what is the source of the finicial demise? A lot of schools are getting lower funding right now due to the poor economical situation our country is in.

D2 is going down hill. That is a fact. It is not the same division it was in the 1970s and 1980s. The first scholorship reduction was a sign of its decline. It is further becoming a lower class division then its name. If you look at the DII championship games in football from 1973 on, over half of the champions and runners-up have left to go to I-AA or higher. It has shown that the top schools can not be held down by these scholorship reductions. They will keep the scholorships by going up a division. And, in most cases, have the ability to give more scholorships. Look at NDSU. NDSU has always had the ability to give the maximum scholorships. DII pushed the number down so NDSU had to go along with it to stay in DII. The next reduction has pushed NDSU over the edge. Really, NDSU should have left DII the last time the scholorships were reduced in my opinion.

Also, of these teams that have made the move up, I have not heard of any that are in terrible finiacial terms with maybe the exception of teams that should be in I-AA that are in I-A football like Idaho and the rest of the ill fated Sun Belt conference.

[The Sicatoka]

A bunch of schools join a division when they only have athletic budgets that are 20% of some of that division's powerhouses.

The powerhouses don't like what they are seeing happening to their division. How long are they going to be bled, by folks spending 1/5 of what they are, on athletics?

Now, am I talking about UM-Crookston joining DII (compared to NDSU) or

Ohio State ($80 million on athletics) looking at the influx of comparatively small schools to DI?

The big DIs are taking notice. That's what those NCAA articles show.

[tony]

Huh? How would Ohio State being bled by NDSU going DI? That doesn't make any sense. It's not like NDSU is pulling an NSIC and moving up, complaining about the cost, and then voting to tell Ohio State et al to curtail their program to suit us.

Maybe you're talking about basketball? You do know that it's a DI football re-org that is being worked on, right?

You're basing long-term decisions on a combination of improbabilities and wishful thinking while ignoring unpleasant certainties.

[The Sicatoka]

My point is money. It is what is really driving all of this conversation.

NDSU is not happy with underfunded programs watering down DII. Fair enough.

But the "Ohio States" (I'll pick them as an example) can't be happy about seeing the profit sharing check (from BB television primarily) keep getting smaller as low-budget programs keep popping up and taking a cut of the pie.

NDSU made a move. What prevents the "Ohio States" from making a move to protect their fiscal positions?

Now, let me make an argument why UND should go DI: Teams playing in hockey's Frozen Four get a cut of the profits .... if you are a DI in all sports. How much money did UND lose out on in 1997, 2000, and 2001?

[bisonguy]

The BCS is already in place to protect the "interests" of the big DIA schools. Ohio State has over 30 varsity sports, btw. Apples and oranges.

[The Sicatoka]

No, not really "apples and oranges." Think about this beyond the gridiron. Outside of football, Ohio State and NDSU will be competing "at the same level."

How'd this problem develop in DII?

An influx of schools with smaller budgets get there and, once there, and because they have numbers, start to change the rules.

What's happening in DI?

An influx of schools with smaller budgets.

Don't think the "Ohio States" aren't noticing.

[tony]

Your point might be about money but it's not driving my conversation - I'm trying to clear up some misconceptions that seem rampant among UND fans (and some NDSU fans too). Giving you a bad time is a bonus.

There is NO revenue drain in football by DI-AA teams - the BCS controls that money.

You are missing many critical points:

1. You couldn't even fill up the sixty-four places in the BB tourney if you were going to limit it to schools like Ohio State.

2. There is absolutely no movement to make the NCAA's Big Dance a big-school-only affair - that would ruin what makes the tourney so interesting.

3. The NCAA is one school, one vote so the BCS schools can do nothing inside the NCAA unless they convince the 150 or so other schools that it's in their best interest. Strong-arming is not a possibility when there is no leverage.

4. If the BCS schools did decide that they were going to leave the NCAA completely, this would only serve to make DI a more rational choice for NDSU.

5. All the proposals you are quoting are from the Football Rules Oversight Committee - those are the guys doing the "big" re-org of the NCAA that people keep pointing too - why anybody would think that they're going to completely reorganize all divisions in all sports is beyond me.

6. I repeat this for emphasis - there can be no Big Dance without the Cinderellas.

7. The most likely course of action taken by DI will be to toughen the qualifications for new DI membership and to make DI-AA more attractive so teams don't keep joining DI-A. All they have to do to keep DII schools from moving up is say, "No more new schools for x years and here's a list of the more stringent guidelines they'll have to face."

8. Classifications are not the same as Divisions. There are no classifications in DII. In DI, there is A, AA, and AAA. If they do away with the classifications, then the 150 other schools are NEVER going to allow rules to be put into place that will force them down to DII.

[The Sicatoka]

The rest, I have very few problems with so I won't comment, but,

About point 3:

No, the BCS schools can't move the world, but that's not the issue. (Remember to think about this outside the scope of football.)

The "Ohio States" are the "NCC" of DI. They want the bigger numbers. It's what the "small budgets" decide is what moves things. With money getting tighter, and a growing number of small DIs, who knows. Could the "DII problem" replicate at the DI level? What would the "Ohio States" do then? No one knows.

I say go DI for the Frozen Four money.

[Bison_Kent]

Sicatoka,

I agree with your accessment of the situation but I wouldn't include NDSU, SDSU or UND in the classification of the small fish into Division I. I think these should go to those 5,000 student and less schools (majority in the southeastern part of the US) that flooded Division I about 5-10 years ago. Sure there are several schools that have succeeded such as the Troy States and the Indiana U, Purdue U at Indianpolis for example (both making the Big Dance this year) but there are several others that have not been successful. These schools are just in Division I for the money. They had no intention of having a very successful program. NDSU's reason for moving up to have tougher competition and give the university more national notarity.

The Division II situtation is much the same. There are the NAIA and Division III schools that see the same money in Division II.

So I agree on your arguement but not to include any of the top NCC schools as the bottom feeders.

[bisonguy]

Looks like the "big boys" do share the wealth-LINK

Through a conference revenue sharing plan, the BCS group will distribute over $40 million to non-participating BCS institutions during its eight-year history. Those monies go to Division I-A and I-AA conferences in support of the game of college football. Additionally, the BCS distributes $200,000 per year to the National Football Foundation and College Hall of Fame for calculating and administering the BCS Standings.

This coming season, BCS leagues will receive between $11.78 - 14.67 million depending on the conference affiliation of the at-large participants. Should the at-large participants come from outside the original BCS conferences -- ACC, Big East, Big Ten, Big 12, Pac-10 or SEC -- those participants will receive $13.78 million. If one or both at-large selections come from within the original BCS group, the conference shall receive $13.54 million for the first participant and $4.5 million for the second participant from that same league. The remaining dollars (the difference between $13.54 million and $4.5 million) will be split among the BCS conferences.

Looks like the BCS schools keep most of the wealth, but they do share some of it.

[tony]

Sicatoka, even if you are right about #3, which would you rather be in: a diluted DI or a diluted DII?

Never fear, the situation in DI is not the same as in DII because DI is being proactive about keeping bottom feeders out of DI. Iin fact, that's one of the reasons that Chapman gave for making the DI decision when he did - he was worried that DI was really going to slam the door in 2004 and the only place where NDSU could control its fate would be on the DI side.

[jimdahl]

I'm so confused, two Bison fans actually HELPING my & Sica's argument.

So now that Tony's come around to agreeing that D-I is worried about bottom-feeders, I'm re-predicting that the solution will be enforced membership requirements to classify teams into the top two football divisions. I think real enforcement for D-IA attendance requirements is just around the corner and that some schools will be forcibly reclassified as D-IAA soon.

The long-term problem is still there, as I described a page ago -- everyone is waterfalling up. Just as the top D-III schools have been climbing into D-II, all the former D-II powers have been fleeing them to D-IAA for the last 25 years. Without putting in some classification rules, the waterfall will continue and all those D-II schools will try to climb to D-IAA in 20 years. Therefore, I think attendance and/or budget requirements for D-IAA membership are also coming, just not as soon.

I definitely don't see a moratorium on reclassification as the solution. It's a band-aid, and would only be temporary while a better solution (like attendance or athletics budget requirements) was being installed. A permanent moratorium would make the obviously incorrect assumption that every school is correctly classified now and that schools never change.

[Bison_Kent]

Jim,

I agree. Going up a division shouldn't be as easy as just going up. I have a solution for moving up. Here is a solution I propose:

1. The school looking to go up has to average the attendance of the average of the division that the school (in all sports in participates) is looking to go up to over the past five year period and in each of those five years. If the average is not attained in any of that five year period, you can't move up.

2. The athletic budget needs to be have a similar average as the attendance. Each year you have to meet the average of what the new division you are moving to have.

3. The facilites need to meet the average capacity of the past five years with no exception. There is no membership until the facilities are upgraded to meet the average facility.

I say do away with the 5 year probationary period for I-AA football and the 13 year wait in Division I basketball. I say let the school do the upgrades to show that they are Division I or II ready and then let them in. This would have kept several of the Divisioin I bottom feeders from getting in. Let them have two years of probation after all the above criteria are meet and the same criteria is still in play.

This would be a seven year program for all sports. If a team in say Division III can meet these criteria right away, two years later the can be in Division II. It would give the school a goal to meet in order of just letting them in if they don't meet it.

[star2city]

How about this for a dressing down of NDSU

[tony]

Huh? I have no idea what your argument is. Actually I was saying that DI is going to clamp down on new DII and NAIA teams coming to DI - and it *will* happen as part of the football re-org. It shouldn't be so tough as to affect UND though - unless Di institutes even more draconian measures to punish teams who move up. This has nothing to do with forcing teams down from DI-A to DI-AA though. The only reason for UND fans being so fixated on that is that they are trying to convince themselves that NDSU won't get into the Big Sky because Idaho is going to get forced down. Personally, I don't think that it's very likely but if it doesn it makes DI-AA more attractive not less.

[bisonguy]

Actually, half a decade, except basketball.

Jim and Sicatoka,

The big schools only care about that $14,000,000 dollar payday for their conference. I doubt the small consolation payout concerns them much.

[jimdahl]

The only reason for UND fans being so fixated on that is that they are trying to convince themselves that NDSU won't get into the Big Sky because Idaho is going to get forced down.

This is a problem Tony, you come to a UND message board and assume everything we type is about NDSU. We were talking generally about problems with teams jumping divisions and likely changes in NCAA legislation that could affect that. It's relevant to this thread about changes in D2 and its relevant to this forum about moving to D-IAA. I know absolutely nothing about Idaho, so I'm quite certain Idaho has nothing to do with my interest in the problem and possible changes in the NCAA division structure.

You've stated here many times that you love antagonizing UND fans so I think you're looking for the same ill will from us towards NDSU and its fans. Our posts don't actually all have hidden anti-NDSU agendas. You thinking they do could be leading you to reflexively naysay everything Sica or I write, though we're actually both on record as saying we support a move to D-IAA! This thread has almost nothing to do with NDSU, so I can see how it would be confusing to someone looking for an anti-NDSU agenda.

Huh? I have no idea what your argument is.

This has nothing to do with forcing teams down from DI-A to DI-AA though.

My argument is that there's a problem of teams climbing divisions at every level of the NCAA and that the top teams at each level are going to try to solve the problem. Forcing teams down based on attendance is my prediction of a likely solution to the problem at the D-IA level. Bison_Kent and Bisonguy seem to be able to discuss the issue with us (even through disagreements) and we all understand what each other is talking about.

BTW-- no clever response to Star2City's post? That one was actually about NDSU.

[bisonguy]

Doesn't DIA require a minimum number of scholarships to be given out? I thought I saw something about 60 or so being the minimum. Maybe DIAA and the remaining DI sports could require something of this sort.

[jimdahl]

Yeah, here's the latest word (effective 8/04) from the division membership chapter of the D-I manual.

20.9.6.4 Additional Financial Aid Requirements. [i-A]The institution shall satisfy the following

additional financial aid requirements: (Adopted: 4/25/02 effective 8/1/04)

(a) Provide an average of at least 90 percent of the permissible maximum number of overall football

grant-in-aids per year over a rolling two-year period; and

( b ) Annually offer a minimum of 200 athletics grant-in-aids or expend at least four million dollars on

grant-in-aids to student-athletes in athletics programs.

As far as I know, D-IAA has no similar requirement (yet). There are current rules about minimum athletics budgets (so low as to have no teeth) and attendance (not strictly enforced yet). Just using scholarship limits is an interesting idea of how to measure who's really committed at the D-IAA level. I keep focusing on minimum attendance rules only because the NCAA has given strong indications that they're going to clamp down them for D-IA.

D-IAA is really tricky because a basketball-oriented school that deserves to be D-I might not meet a D-IAA football requirement, but has nowhere else to go. In effect, any D-IAA restrictions are also restrictions for D-I membership (unless the school wants to drop football entirely). That's why I keep speculating that limits for D-IAA are not imminent.