Another discussion on the Sioux Nickname

[Sioux-cia]

Do you have any proof that can be posted on here regarding the stance that the Native American Vets are taking on this logo issue? Because unless you can post something valid and with a little credibility attached to it, this quote has no validity whatsoever. Just like when other people on here post facts of information and you attack them about the validity of their information, until I see a survey or something significant that states the stance Native American Vets are taking on the logo, your quote has no more validity than anything anyone else posts on here.

Happy Holidays Everyone

GK's proof of his statement is the same he uses when he states all 'real Indians' oppose the name and logo. He speaks for all 'real Indians' because he himself is a 'real Indian'. Supposedly, he is a 'real Veteran' who could not be 'suckered into' staying in the military, so he can speak for all Native American Vets.

Notice how he effectively ignores the program that the University of North Dakota has initiated in order to provide Native American Vets with the health care they so richly deserve?

Happy Holidays to you and yours and GOD BLESS THE FIGHTING SIOUX!!

[KnowtheFacts]

Kracker,

I have done my history. UND (in the 1930's) asked and received permission to use the name. Don't get all of your info from the Dakota Student archives. That is only one source. I have seen the microfiche documents from the Dakota student. My Dad was going to school here at that time. He did not look at Native Americans as less than human and neither did a lot of other people. He was a friend to your people years ago and supported them with jobs and financial help. There have been many people who have looked at your culture as no different than any one else and tried to help. Believe me it isn't always easy to help!

I am not arguing at that time in history Native Americans were treated as equal citizens. The Fighting Sioux name did not solve the racial prejudice at the time. I believe it was a step in the right direction back then. I have reviewed documents that indicate UND received permission to use the name. In a recent column in the Herald, Doreen Yellowbird who is an opponent of the name, did admit UND asked and received permission to use the name. I saw old pictures of the celebration that took place at Ft. Yates around that time. OK, the past is past.

I accept that today the representatives from the Sioux nation have stated they don't want us to use the name. I don't think it is as simple as that. I think it will cost too much money to change the name and I think we will lose an opportunity to use the name as a bridge between cultures and a building block to help kids on the reservation. My opinion is as simple as that but making it happen wouldn't be so simple. Do your leaders not understand how much good will they would get by trying to find a compromise on this issue?

Now if you disagree, I don't think you are a coward, or hiding or ignorant or a dumb norwegian. I suspect you have a position of leadership within the UND Native American community and it may be worth your while if you are going to work to get the name changed to quit calling people names who disagree with you. At one time you had mentioned the posssibility of a compromise. Are you still willing to consider one? If not have a Merry Christmas and I hope your finals went well. I will try to look you up some day at the cultural center. Will they know who Graham Kracker is?

dear sir,

Please share your citations/references or copies of these documents. I am quite interested in what actually happened and not just hearsay surrounding this issue. According to even the UND appeal to the NCAA their documentaion of elder permission was not until sometime in or after the 60's. I am also curious about your statement "(in the 1930's)". If you really had documentation you would know that the name was changed in 1930. period. I am a skeptic by nature so forgive me if my comments seem harsh. Where did you see these celebratory pictures from Ft. Yates? is there some sort of something in the images that demonstrate that the celebration is related to the Sioux nickname? Please share your hard documentation as it sounds like it could solve a lot of questions for all of us.

[iramurphy]

dear sir,

Please share your citations/references or copies of these documents. I am quite interested in what actually happened and not just hearsay surrounding this issue. According to even the UND appeal to the NCAA their documentaion of elder permission was not until sometime in or after the 60's. I am also curious about your statement "(in the 1930's)". If you really had documentation you would know that the name was changed in 1930. period. I am a skeptic by nature so forgive me if my comments seem harsh. Where did you see these celebratory pictures from Ft. Yates? is there some sort of something in the images that demonstrate that the celebration is related to the Sioux nickname? Please share your hard documentation as it sounds like it could solve a lot of questions for all of us.

I will do my best to try and find the photo and reference. I believe the Alumni office may have photos. I know the name was changed in the 1930's. I can't tell you when UND was given permission but I had been led to believe it was before the 1960's but I do not have anything that I could share with you without researching the Alumni records, The Bismarck Tribune records, the GF Herald records and the

Dakota Student records. Because I don't live in these communites it will take some time but if you wish I will do my best to try and gain some credible evidence to answer this clearly for all of us. I have read Doreen Yellowbirds column and about two months ago she did write a column and said UND was in fact granted permission by elders to use the name. Take that for what it is worth. I don't find your comments harsh, they are a very rerasonable request to back up statements with facts rather than my vague memories of a photo and what I have been told by wha ti thought were credible sources. As I said I will do my best to find the references in question.

Fpr what it is worth I will ask you the same question I have3 asked my pal Kracker. What if we could use this issue to improve education or activities for Native American kids? Ideas suggested have included using UND staff or programming and resources to bring workshops to the reservations for school staff. Having Athletic camps, math camps, music camps etc. for Native American kids. I was at the hockey game tonight and even a dumb Irishman like myself is smart enough to see there could be a lot of positive results for Native Americans using this very issue as a tool and rallying point rather than polarizing ourselves and our kids. Depends on how we wish to deal with it. Would we be any worse off? Why not consider it?

[KnowtheFacts]

I will do my best to try and find the photo and reference. I believe the Alumni office may have photos. I know the name was changed in the 1930's. I can't tell you when UND was given permission but I had been led to believe it was before the 1960's but I do not have anything that I could share with you without researching the Alumni records, The Bismarck Tribune records, the GF Herald records and the

Dakota Student records. Because I don't live in these communites it will take some time but if you wish I will do my best to try and gain some credible evidence to answer this clearly for all of us. I have read Doreen Yellowbirds column and about two months ago she did write a column and said UND was in fact granted permission by elders to use the name. Take that for what it is worth. I don't find your comments harsh, they are a very rerasonable request to back up statements with facts rather than my vague memories of a photo and what I have been told by wha ti thought were credible sources. As I said I will do my best to find the references in question.

Fpr what it is worth I will ask you the same question I have3 asked my pal Kracker. What if we could use this issue to improve education or activities for Native American kids? Ideas suggested have included using UND staff or programming and resources to bring workshops to the reservations for school staff. Having Athletic camps, math camps, music camps etc. for Native American kids. I was at the hockey game tonight and even a dumb Irishman like myself is smart enough to see there could be a lot of positive results for Native Americans using this very issue as a tool and rallying point rather than polarizing ourselves and our kids. Depends on how we wish to deal with it. Would we be any worse off? Why not consider it?

Thanks for helping search the records. I often hear it spoken, but have never been given any solid evidence that it happened.

I understand that this is the best way for you all to keep the "Fighting Sioux" name. I really think these are great ideas. Why not use our vast university resources as you suggested above to do something better for Native American Families and Kids? Thats great, I have no objection. But why does that improvement in the lives of others have to come with a price. That price being the sell out of culture for some real help. You guys all think is is so easy to separate hockey from real Indian culture. Yeah on the surface, sure. However it runs deeper than that for Indian people. With tribes being so close by, dont you think it would be easy to hire a fluent Lakota speaker to actually teach the Lakota Language classes? Why is the best candidate a guy from Sweden who cant even pronounce the words correctly?

I know we were all horrified to hear about the Swastika and racist comments displayed on the GF synagogue, but why are the reactions so different when we hear about racist comments hurled at Native American students, egged tipis, and graffiti at the Native American Center? Well, we must be making that stuff up. Just a few ignorant people. Well UND isnt the Fighting Jews, where we can claim better respect an knowlege for those people. UND is the "Fighting Sioux." This town should be less racist toward Native Americans. G-Forkers are so proud of "their" indian heritage, fascinated by it. But have no understanding of it. Worse -no desire to understand it. Only to assimilate what they want and move on. Dreamcatchers on their rear-view mirrors and a indian-looking face on their jersey. Maybe some cultures are okay with their culture being raped and slandered. The Native People are not. They are still fighting to preserve their culture and way of life. In fact, if they don't adhere to certain criteria (IE preserving their language, traditions...), then the US Government will cease to recognize the tribal government and all that is left will be taken too. ... What other culture or race of people has to prove who they are to claim it? Native Tribes can't afford to give away their culture to greedy self-serving entities such as UND.

It is easy for someone with a degree and a nice paying job who can afford to buy whatever the heck they want on e-bay to say "get up off your ass, quit feeling sorry for yourself and do something with your life". The system in place for helping people get off their ass, sucks. In addition, it is no secret that both medicaid and IHS are seriouslly underfunded, as well as most Indian Tribes. If you live where there is no work and the only work is underfunded and laying people off.... How do you go to work when you cant afford to put your kids in daycare? How do you get moving when there are balls and chains around your feet? In this damn capitalistic and greedy country, the only way to get real help is to sell out - something I hope these tribes never do. There is money supposedly in trust that the US government tried to buy off the Black Hills in SD. The Sioux never accepted the money, but the greedy US moved in and took it anyway. It is the principle of the matter. Giving a university permission to display their culture through a medium that has nothing to do with Indian culture at all is not the solution.

That being said, what will you do? Are you going to go start a program in Ft. Yates, call it the Fighting Sioux kids club, and then when kids come because it is the only decent thing to do after school, claim that these people really do love the "Fighting Sioux"? How about we offer free hockey tickets to Spirit Lake tribal members, maybe something they wouldn't spend their hard earned money on otherwise, or kids whose parents could never afford a club membership just to see a college hockey game. Then they can see for themselves how non-hostile the athletic environment really is. (At the same time the crowds can point them out and say - Hey look, not all Indians are against the name).

It sounds like a good idea, but it should have already happened if it was going to. I think your opportunity for rallying and well-doing has come and gone. Right now acts like you suggested are pretty much going to just look like bribes.

We have lots of programs already actually. For example INMED. I have heard lots of inaccurate comments about this program, but I dont believe I had responded to any. It is a government funded program, based on similar programs at other colleges. It was started by a Native American and is run by Native Americans. The grant money funds the salaries and space in the Medical School. The deal is that UND has 50 slots for med students (maybe a few more now) However, they agreed to take on additional students above and beyond those designated spots for Tribally Enrolled students. These students are subjected to the same admission policies as everyone else. The only differences are that 1. they must be tribally enrolled and 2. they dont have to be from North Dakota, Minnesota, or WICHE states. Having gone through the admission process, I know that most State-run Medical Schools only accept Residents. UND has a few slots for Minnesota residents by agreement and also WICHE which is a program to help students from states with none or 1 medical school increase their opportunities for acceptance. (sorry, this is a tangent i guess, but I dont want to erase it). Besides Medical Students, INMED serves all the native students of UND who are interested in or pursuing a medically related career.

So UND brags about INMED. Sure it's a great program. BTW they are opposed to the nickname. However UND cant leave it at: INMED is an awesome program we have here due to native american participation and initiative. No, they must try to link it somehow to the Fighting Sioux nickname. INMED can stand on its own, UND doesnt need to say or imply that INMED is here because of a nickname. That's like saying there is a Wilderness Studies Program at the University of Montana just because their nickname is the Grizzlies. Maybe it is because there is lots of wilderness around. Maybe UND has lots of Indian-related programs around because this state has a high proportion of Native Americans. One reservation being a mere 2 hours away.

There is more to this university than the nickname. If UND cant stand without the "Fighting Sioux" nickname then God HELP the "Fighting Sioux"

sorry i am so scatterbrained. I hope you get the idea of what i am saying though. I really dont think there an easy solution that pleases everyone such as you are suggesting.

I dont think we have to polarize ourselves anymore. I think the easiest solution is to recognize the voices of the Tribal Governments (can't miss the opportunity to say - Almost ALL of the Sioux tribes are officially against the use of the "fighting Sioux" nickname - I think only Flandreau and Spirit Lake have not taken a stand) and agree that the name should be changed before any more harm is done.

[ZapPoke]

What I don't get about this is the fact that other "tribes" are allowing the use of their names (Utes and Seminoles to name two). Why do they not have the same perspective as Mako? I am of Scandinavian descent. Should I be upset when "Vikings" is used in a derogatory way? Yes, this isn't a race thing, it's a respect thing. No one should be using derogatory terms at an ahtletic event. It is not an issue of team name it's an issue of respect for your opponent.

The UND mascot promotes an environment that is hostile and abusive. Imagine you are a Native American who brings a son or daughter to

[mako]

What I don't get about this is the fact that other "tribes" are allowing the use of their names (Utes and Seminoles to name two). Why do they not have the same perspective as Mako? I am of Scandinavian descent. Should I be upset when "Vikings" is used in a derogatory way? Yes, this isn't a race thing, it's a respect thing. No one should be using derogatory terms at an ahtletic event. It is not an issue of team name it's an issue of respect for your opponent.

The Seminole and Ute Nations have given permission for their universities to use their likeness for mascots, as well as the Chippewa for CMU. I don

[Air Force One]

I

[PCM]

I understand that this is the best way for you all to keep the "Fighting Sioux" name.

Not really. I don't think who said what when for what reason makes a single bit of difference to the NCAA.

You guys all think is is so easy to separate hockey from real Indian culture. Yeah on the surface, sure. However it runs deeper than that for Indian people. With tribes being so close by, dont you think it would be easy to hire a fluent Lakota speaker to actually teach the Lakota Language classes? Why is the best candidate a guy from Sweden who cant even pronounce the words correctly?

I thought he was Swiss. But what does that situation have to do with the Sioux nickname and hockey? Did Dave Hakstol demand that this person be hired?

I know we were all horrified to hear about the Swastika and racist comments displayed on the GF synagogue, but why are the reactions so different when we hear about racist comments hurled at Native American students, egged tipis, and graffiti at the Native American Center? Well, we must be making that stuff up. Just a few ignorant people.

Once again, you use the actions of a few idiots to tar the entire community of Grand Forks. Nice.

Well UND isnt the Fighting Jews, where we can claim better respect an knowlege for those people. UND is the "Fighting Sioux." This town should be less racist toward Native Americans.

There should be no racism anywhere against anyone. Period. But that ideal world doesn't exist. As GrahamKracker has so eloquently made clear on this board, it doesn't even exist between tribes.

G-Forkers are so proud of "their" indian heritage, fascinated by it.

Actually, most of the white people in the community I've met who are "fascinated" by Indian heritage and culture are those who favor dropping the Sioux nickname. The vast majority of people understand the difference between naming a team after the long-gone Sioux warriors of the plains and the Sioux people who still exist. It's really not a difficult distinction for the average person to make. But there are a few literal-minded people who, for some reason, can't see logic or reason. They insist that everyone must conform to their warped version of reality because their feelings and emotions trump the rights of others.

But have no understanding of it. Worse -no desire to understand it. Only to assimilate what they want and move on. Dreamcatchers on their rear-view mirrors and a indian-looking face on their jersey. Maybe some cultures are okay with their culture being raped and slandered. The Native People are not. They are still fighting to preserve their culture and way of life. In fact, if they don't adhere to certain criteria (IE preserving their language, traditions...), then the US Government will cease to recognize the tribal government and all that is left will be taken too. ... What other culture or race of people has to prove who they are to claim it? Native Tribes can't afford to give away their culture to greedy self-serving entities such as UND.

Please provide some documented proof that the US government is threatening to take away any Sioux tribe's status because of UND's use of the Sioux nickname. Until you can do that, your argument has absolutely nothing to do with this issue.

[Siouxman]

It is easy for someone with a degree and a nice paying job who can afford to buy whatever the heck they want on e-bay to say "get up off your ass, quit feeling sorry for yourself and do something with your life". The system in place for helping people get off their ass, sucks. In addition, it is no secret that both medicaid and IHS are seriouslly underfunded, as well as most Indian Tribes. If you live where there is no work and the only work is underfunded and laying people off.... How do you go to work when you cant afford to put your kids in daycare? How do you get moving when there are balls and chains around your feet?

I happen to work for a company that does quite a bit of work with the tribes in ND and MN. We have several employees who work indepth with tribal owned companies and tribal individuals. There is one facet of the current Native American culture on the reservations that just astounds us. We see and talk with the individuals that we deal with, and we have hired several Native Americans to work for the company, and we consistently get the same story. That story is that if a tribal member tries to improve themselves and their situation, they get pulled back down by other tribal members. We have seen it to such a degree, that it is the topic of discussion at some of our meetings on working with the tribes. It negatively affects the individuals and the tribal companies who are there to provide jobs and improve the life of tribal members.

I and my company would certainly appreciate any insight or information you could provide on this phenomenon. We spend millions of dollars annually on economic development programs, which are available to all entities that we work with, including the tribal communities and companies. This attitude has held us back numerous times in trying to get things accomplished and moving forward. The end result is that a lot of resources are wasted in trying to overcome issues and situations that simply should not exist. It is not any official policy or action by the tribes, but involves the attitudes and behavior of individual tribal members. Very frustrating to us, and clearly a roadblock to improving things on the reservation.

Any help or insight out there? Mako, KTF, GK, please??

Edited January 1, 2006 by Siouxman

[redwing77]

I happen to work for a company that does quite a bit of work with the tribes in ND and MN. We have several employees who work indepth with tribal owned companies and tribal individuals. There is one facet of the current Native American culture on the reservations that just astounds us. We see and talk with the individuals that we deal with, and we have hired several Native Americans to work for the company, and we consistently get the same story. That story is that if a tribal member tries to improve themselves and their situation, they get pulled back down by other tribal members. We have seen it to such a degree, that it is the topic of discussion at some of our meetings on working with the tribes. It negatively affects the individuals and the tribal companies who are there to provide jobs and improve the life of tribal members.

I and my company would certainly appreciate any insight or information you could provide on this phenomenon. We spend millions of dollars annually on economic development programs, which are available to all entities that we work with, including the tribal communities and companies. This attitude has held us back numerous times in trying to get things accomplished and moving forward. The end result is that a lot of resources are wasted in trying to overcome issues and situations that simply should not exist. It is not any official policy or action by the tribes, but involves the attitudes and behavior of individual tribal members. Very frustrating to us, and clearly a roadblock to improving things on the reservation.

Any help or insight out there? Mako, KTF, GK, please??

This is what I was talking about months ago. From an outsiders' perspective (yeah, mako, GK, and KTF will jump all over this), it seems like the reservations are basically steeped in a socialistic mentality. Meaning, what's good for some should be good for all. Individual windfalls are strongly discouraged because the individual should be thinking about the whole and not about him/herself. The problem, as I see it, with this system, is no individual can really make an impact on the whole in such a manner that is expected. Certainly no individual can change the lifestyle or monetary income (in the least bit substantially anyways) of the masses.

What it then comes down it os culture shock and the subsequent clash therein. American culture really is individualistic in nature. "All more me and little for all" if you will. Whereas the reservation's culture seems to be "All for all and little for me." Socialistic societies work very well on paper, but not in reality. Forms of socialism exist all over the world still and many countries are in trouble economically and socially in part because of it. The one thing that is certain is that socialistic and capitalistic societies are not compatible. Therein lies the problem we see here. Socialists see capitalists as selfish. And when capitalists come into contact with people who are in some way unable to compete with them (whether it is society that holds them down or other physical, mental, or educational deficiencies) they get accused of being arrogant, biased, or (if the people who can't compete with them are of a different race) racist.

It ends up in this case being that the majority cannot do anything for the minority without the minnority crying racism. Sure, if UND said, we're going to donate $100 from every student enrolled every semester to the tribes, they'd surely agree to take the money. However, while they take the money from UND, they'd find a way (even if the nickname was the UND Slithering Eels) to call UND racist.

Keeping the nickname, changing the nickname. This is a lose/lose situation. The NAs lose regardless because even if the nickname is changed their plight on the reservations nor the racism they decry will go away. If the name is kept, they decry racism for keeping the name (as deciding to keep the name is far more racist than actually holding it, it appears) and continue the "woe is us" mentality anyways.

For us it is lose/lose because if the change the name, no one will be happy and we have to jump through all the hoops. Not to mention that the people who are pro change will inevitably try to use their victory in the matter as a form of power gain to leverage what they'd want the name to be without taking steps to help the University make the change. The costs incurred will surely be passed on to the students in the various ways. If we keep the name we have to hear about the incessant whining from now until we actually do change the name. With the citations of mistreatment going from 20+ years ago, to 30+ years ago, etc and still be considered "current." I hate whiners.

My solution is simple: Offer to change the name if the Sioux nation offers to pay for the change.

[Sioux-cia]

I'm disgusted by KTFs post. The American Indian can't get jobs, educations, health care, etc. because the U.S. Government won't give them sufficient funding. BIG FAT BOO HOO!! This is the first post that has made me this angry. I'm only a generation away from fourteen Mexican Americans who lost the farm and went on the migrant trail to feed themselves and their children. That same generation also recognized they did not want the migrant life for their children and after a few, short, hardworking, back breaking years got out of the migrant work force. They moved hundreds of miles from their homes to 'letting go, moving on and moving up'. There was NO GOVERNMENT PROGRAM to help them; just their own sweat, hard work, perseverance, LACK OF SELF PITY and the lack of expectation that the government should take care of them. Our culture is intact, dispite what KTF and GK have so insultingly posted about me in the past. The only difference is we are not using maintaining our culture as an excuse to succeed without being on the dole.

I'm not expecting any accolades for my family's success because every group that migrated to the U.S. faced the same hardships. AND don't give me any crap about this is the Indians country that they migrated to because the Indians also came from elsewhere to this country. As GK would so eloquently put it, it you don't like it here go back to your mother country. See how much government assistance you'll get there.

So mako, KTF and GK get off the whine and get to work. UNDs name and logo aren't keeping anyone from being successful.

[HockeyMom]

I'm disgusted by KTFs post. The American Indian can't get jobs, educations, health care, etc. because the U.S. Government won't give them sufficient funding. BIG FAT BOO HOO!! This is the first post that has made me this angry. I'm only a generation away from fourteen Mexican Americans who lost the farm and went on the migrant trail to feed themselves and their children. That same generation also recognized they did not want the migrant life for their children and after a few, short, hardworking, back breaking years got out of the migrant work force. They moved hundreds of miles from their homes to 'letting go, moving on and moving up'. There was NO GOVERNMENT PROGRAM to help them; just their own sweat, hard work, perseverance, LACK OF SELF PITY and the lack of expectation that the government should take care of them. Our culture is intact, dispite what KTF and GK have so insultingly posted about me in the past. The only difference is we are not using maintaining our culture as an excuse to succeed without being on the dole.

I'm not expecting any accolades for my family's success because every group that migrated to the U.S. faced the same hardships. AND don't give me any crap about this is the Indians country that they migrated to because the Indians also came from elsewhere to this country. As GK would so eloquently put it, it you don't like it here go back to your mother country. See how much government assistance you'll get there.

So mako, KTF and GK get off the whine and get to work. UNDs name and logo aren't keeping anyone from being successful.

*golf claps*

Well said, Sioux-cia.

[PCM]

In this damn capitalistic and greedy country, the only way to get real help is to sell out - something I hope these tribes never do.

I guess redwing77 was right. The big problem in this country, according to KTF, is capitalism. Fix that and all problems will be solved.

[redwing77]

I guess redwing77 was right. The big problem in this country, according to KTF, is capitalism. Fix that and all problems will be solved.

Hey, sooner or later I'd have to be right!

Yes, eliminating capitalism is obviously the fix. When doing what's right for you and you alone is "selling out" then it is obvious that capitalism needs to end.

Edited January 2, 2006 by redwing77

[KnowtheFacts]

Sioucia you disgust me. You are friggin delusional. You have the same mentality displayed by the California Governer and also my grandfather. Woop de friggin do. You did well for yourself so why cant everyone else do the same. Pull up your bootstraps and get to work. And by the way, you're on your own. I did it myself and so can you. There are other facors you are not considering such as poor health, care of other family members, young children to be cared for, disability, to name a few. Damn right some people are lazy, and some people manipulate the system. But that is not everyone, maybe as rare as your GF racists. I really think people are doing the best they can with what they have. There *are* actually Indians that work for a living and dont get government aid. I also think bitching at them to work harder is not the solution. I also dont think pumping money at tribes is the solution. I never said that in my post.

One other difference is that the United States never signed a treaty with your family saying that they would provide food and healthcare to them and their descendants. This is the case with American Indians. They have every right to expect that from the Government. I think the Government did a piss poor job of their side of the agreement. I also think that we need to help the tribes get off of the Government help and learn to be self-sufficient. Some tribes have done really well, but some remote tribes have had a harder time.

I was never making racist comments at you. I was using sarcasm and trying to prove a point. My Grandmother came from Mexico herself, so why would I bash my own race? Obviously the meaning of that conversation was lost to you. Well actually, it wasnt. You were offended. And similar types of comments about Native Americans are said and people dont expect *them* to be offended.

Since were talking about family... When my grandmother came from mexico she worked hard too.. But instead of being selfish and only focusing on herself and her own, she continued to give to others and help people in need. She lived poor and died poor. Im very proud of the way she lived her life. There is nothing wrong with being poor. There *is* something wrong with being well-to-do and bitching about the poor folks that cant help themselves.

Im sick of your selfish attitude. Stay out of my conversations.

This conversation has everything to do with the Fighting Sioux Logo. The United States has taken and taken from these people. They took their land, they took their children, they took some more land, they took their food, they took their leaders, they took the people likely to succeed and moved them away from the reservations that so badly needed them, they took everything. Now you and other selfish wannabes want to take their identity, their very name from them. Get a book and learn something about the people you say you emulate, maybe you can learn a thing or two.

See ya later, I'm off of break now and gotta get back to School. You know so I can get a job and you can quit whining.

[Sioux-cia]

Sioucia you disgust me. You are friggin delusional. You have the same mentality displayed by the California Governer and also my grandfather. Woop de friggin do. You did well for yourself so why cant everyone else do the same. Pull up your bootstraps and get to work. And by the way, you're on your own. I did it myself and so can you. There are other facors you are not considering such as poor health, care of other family members, young children to be cared for, disability, to name a few. Damn right some people are lazy, and some people manipulate the system. But that is not everyone, maybe as rare as your GF racists. I really think people are doing the best they can with what they have. There *are* actually Indians that work for a living and dont get government aid. I also think bitching at them to work harder is not the solution. I also dont think pumping money at tribes is the solution. I never said that in my post.

One other difference is that the United States never signed a treaty with your family saying that they would provide food and healthcare to them and their descendants. This is the case with American Indians. They have every right to expect that from the Government. I think the Government did a piss poor job of their side of the agreement. I also think that we need to help the tribes get off of the Government help and learn to be self-sufficient. Some tribes have done really well, but some remote tribes have had a harder time.

I was never making racist comments at you. I was using sarcasm and trying to prove a point. My Grandmother came from Mexico herself, so why would I bash my own race? Obviously the meaning of that conversation was lost to you. Well actually, it wasnt. You were offended. And similar types of comments about Native Americans are said and people dont expect *them* to be offended.

Since were talking about family... When my grandmother came from mexico she worked hard too.. But instead of being selfish and only focusing on herself and her own, she continued to give to others and help people in need. She lived poor and died poor. Im very proud of the way she lived her life. There is nothing wrong with being poor. There *is* something wrong with being well-to-do and bitching about the poor folks that cant help themselves.

Im sick of your selfish attitude. Stay out of my conversations.

This conversation has everything to do with the Fighting Sioux Logo. The United States has taken and taken from these people. They took their land, they took their children, they took some more land, they took their food, they took their leaders, they took the people likely to succeed and moved them away from the reservations that so badly needed them, they took everything. Now you and other selfish wannabes want to take their identity, their very name from them. Get a book and learn something about the people you say you emulate, maybe you can learn a thing or two.

See ya later, I'm off of break now and gotta get back to School. You know so I can get a job and you can quit whining.

It's unfortunate that you know less about your own ancestors as you do the American Indian's. If you did you would know that the US Government made treaties with the Mexican people that they broke as well. That's how my ancestors lost the farm. Glad to hear you respect your Grandmother and her hard work but lack that same respect for your Grandfather. I take it he was white. Of course he is. Why else the disrespect.

You are a victim of tunnel vision if you believe that the only culture that has illness, poverty, family members to care for, disabled, children, etc. is the American Indian. Take a look at the migrant workers of today. Not doing any better than they did 50/60 years ago. But why would you, they are mainly Hispanics and African American. And they don't have a visible cause/bandwagon for you to jump on to help them in their plight.

Good for your grandmother!! She did what most Latina's did and continue to do. I refer you to the author, Dr. Adelaida del Castillo. She wrote about the Mexican women in the work force here in the U.S. and in Mexico. Wonderful women who faced hardship, after hardship and guess what, succeeded and continue to succeed. They did it without blaming a name and logo for their lot in life. I doubt you'll read it. Your too immersed in UNDs use of the Sioux name and logo to recognize that there are other minorities who face the same injustices as the American Indian who manage to acheive successes in life inspite of the crap that is thrown in their paths. The difference is they aren't blaming a name and logo for their lot in life. Until you moved to Grand Forks and married a Lakota Sioux what did you do for La Raza or any other minority group for that matter? Squat. It must be hard to get involved in minority issues when you look more like Heidi Heitkamp than Dr. Yolanda Chavez Leyva.

If you have so much respect for part of your culture why not get on GKs case for the crap he was writing about Mexican Americans. Oh, I get it, he was just using sarcasm, he actually respects the Mexican culture; just like you. I'm sure your grandmother would have understood.

Let's get something straight. I AM NOT EMULATING THE SIOUX INDIAN. If I'm going to emulate anyone it will be, and hopefully is, my own ancestors. I wear a Sioux jersey as a fan of the Sioux athletes and their accomplishments. I don't wear the Sioux name and logo because I 'wanna be' a Sioux Indian.

You want me to stay out of your conversations? Stop posting here. Vaya con Dios Chica.

For the record I never said KTF disgusted me. Her post was disgusting. In it she demeans the American Indian by saying that without government aid they can't better their lives.

It is easy for someone with a degree and a nice paying job who can afford to buy whatever the heck they want on e-bay to say "get up off your ass, quit feeling sorry for yourself and do something with your life". The system in place for helping people get off their ass, sucks. In addition, it is no secret that both medicaid and IHS are seriouslly underfunded, as well as most Indian Tribes. If you live where there is no work and the only work is underfunded and laying people off.... How do you go to work when you cant afford to put your kids in daycare? How do you get moving when there are balls and chains around your feet?

What do you do? You do what every other American citizen who wants health care, day care, food, education, etc. does. You work at any job available, you finish high school and go the trade school or college, you move to where the jobs are-taking your culture, beliefs and religion with you. Where is it written that an American Indian can only be an American Indian on a poverty stricken reservation?

Edited January 2, 2006 by Sioux-cia

[HockeyMom]

Stay out of my conversations.

Your conversations? I feel the need to remind you that this is a public forum, I don't think anyone has an expectation to a right of privacy when they post here.

[mako]

[Air Force One]

http://www.UND.edu/org/bridges/index2.html

This is a new one to me.

All this did was take me to the homepage, no documented example of racism there. I did find some interesting reading including a report I was thinking about looking up. I really injoyed the author's interjections into the official report of "What the report didn't state was...", those were cute. Funny how the NC$$ could not find a hostile or abusive environment in 2002 but they could in a blanket decree 2 1/2 years later.

http://www.UND.edu/org/bridges/images/poster1.jpg

This is a good one.

[KnowtheFacts]

It's unfortunate that you know less about your own ancestors as you do the American Indian's. If you did you would know that the US Government made treaties with the Mexican people that they broke as well. That's how my ancestors lost the farm. Glad to hear you respect your Grandmother and her hard work but lack that same respect for your Grandfather. I take it he was white. Of course he is. Why else the disrespect.

You are a victim of tunnel vision if you believe that the only culture that has illness, poverty, family members to care for, disabled, children, etc. is the American Indian. Take a look at the migrant workers of today. Not doing any better than they did 50/60 years ago. But why would you, they are mainly Hispanics and African American. And they don't have a visible cause/bandwagon for you to jump on to help them in their plight.

Good for your grandmother!! She did what most Latina's did and continue to do. I refer you to the author, Dr. Adelaida del Castillo. She wrote about the Mexican women in the work force here in the U.S. and in Mexico. Wonderful women who faced hardship, after hardship and guess what, succeeded and continue to succeed. They did it without blaming a name and logo for their lot in life. I doubt you'll read it. Your too immersed in UNDs use of the Sioux name and logo to recognize that there are other minorities who face the same injustices as the American Indian who manage to acheive successes in life inspite of the crap that is thrown in their paths. The difference is they aren't blaming a name and logo for their lot in life. Until you moved to Grand Forks and married a Lakota Sioux what did you do for La Raza or any other minority group for that matter? Squat. It must be hard to get involved in minority issues when you look more like Heidi Heitkamp than Dr. Yolanda Chavez Leyva.

If you have so much respect for part of your culture why not get on GKs case for the crap he was writing about Mexican Americans. Oh, I get it, he was just using sarcasm, he actually respects the Mexican culture; just like you. I'm sure your grandmother would have understood.

Let's get something straight. I AM NOT EMULATING THE SIOUX INDIAN. If I'm going to emulate anyone it will be, and hopefully is, my own ancestors. I wear a Sioux jersey as a fan of the Sioux athletes and their accomplishments. I don't wear the Sioux name and logo because I 'wanna be' a Sioux Indian.

You want me to stay out of your conversations? Stop posting here. Vaya con Dios Chica.

For the record I never said KTF disgusted me. Her post was disgusting. In it she demeans the American Indian by saying that without government aid they can't better their lives.

What do you do? You do what every other American citizen who wants health care, day care, food, education, etc. does. You work at any job available, you finish high school and go the trade school or college, you move to where the jobs are-taking your culture, beliefs and religion with you. Where is it written that an American Indian can only be an American Indian on a poverty stricken reservation?

My grandfather was not white he is also Mexican. He was so ashamed of the way his mother lived her life he turned around and "succeeded" the american way. He also refused to teach his children their culture or their language so they could be more American and no accent. So, although I do respect him because he is my Grandfather, I don't respect his way of thinking.

Other thoughts.... If all the American Indians on the reservation move to the jobs elsewhere, then guess who is left on the rez. Yep, the people that can't afford to move away, or do what you just said. Move all the educated and work-qualified people away, brilliant. That concept you presented only makes the conditions on the reservation worse than they already are.

I never said that "without government aid, they cant better their lives". In fact I said the opposite. I said we need to get off the Gov. help and find a way to be self sufficient. That does not eliminate the fact that the aid is not welfare, but a treaty promise for the taking of Indian Land.

What the hell does it matter what I look like? There are millions of Mexican-Americans in the US that dont "look" like Dr. Yolanda Chavez Leyva. There are also lots of Natives that dont "look' Native and Blacks that dont "look" Black. So what. You make lots of assumptions about what I have done and am doing for other people. You only get so much information from your little private eye company you use to spy on me and my family. Just because we talk about Native American issues and the logo here (that is the topic of this board) doesnt mean that I can only focus on this one issue.

You are still confused about the logo thing as far as what I am saying. I dont think the logo has ruined anyone's life directly - well maybe the people who have been assaulted and called names - but I dont think that ruined their entire life. I think the logo/nickname is a direct result of racist attitudes - hidden or not- in this community. As I stated in my previous post, I think the logo and the people who promote it, do not consider that this name is the name of a race of people. A race of people who strongly object to their name and culture being used as a theme for an athletic team.

Frankly as a Mexican American - I think that it is a shame that Mexican culture in the eyes of most white americans has been reduced to eating Mexican food and celebrating Cinco de Mayo a holiday most people dont even know why it is a holiday. However, we are fortunate not to have a public institution named the Fighting Hispanics who would use the culture and its stereotypes to make a cutesy theme for their athletic team. If you like the Fighting Gonzalez, then you also have to live with people wearing Sombreros and Panchos to games, and pretending to be something they are not. Will *that* further the cause of Mexican Migrant workers? probably not.

[Sioux-cia]

It's unfortunate that you know less about your own ancestors as you do the American Indian's. If you did you would know that the US Government made treaties with the Mexican people that they broke as well. That's how my ancestors lost the farm.

You are a victim of tunnel vision if you believe that the only culture that has illness, poverty, family members to care for, disabled, children, etc. is the American Indian. Take a look at the migrant workers of today. Not doing any better than they did 50/60 years ago.

Good for your grandmother!! She did what most Latina's did and continue to do. I refer you to the author, Dr. Adelaida del Castillo. She wrote about the Mexican women in the work force here in the U.S. and in Mexico. Wonderful women who faced hardship, after hardship and guess what, succeeded and continue to succeed. They did it without blaming a name and logo for their lot in life.

If you have so much respect for part of your culture why not get on GKs case for the crap he was writing about Mexican Americans. Oh, I get it, he was just using sarcasm, he actually respects the Mexican culture; just like you. I'm sure your grandmother would have understood.

For the record I never said KTF disgusted me. Her post was disgusting. In it she demeans the American Indian by saying that without government aid they can't better their lives.

What do you do? You do what every other American citizen who wants health care, day care, food, education, etc. does. You work at any job available, you finish high school and go the trade school or college, you move to where the jobs are-taking your culture, beliefs and religion with you. Where is it written that an American Indian can only be an American Indian on a poverty stricken reservation?

I'm not here to get into a pissing contest with you KTF, I've already won. It's unfortunate that when you are faced with facts as opposed to your suppositions, misinformation and wild, unfounded accusations you revert to name calling and insults. (Redwing77, your right again, you poopy head.)

As a Mexican American I don't have a problem with any other ethnic/cultural/racial group who want to experience anything in my culture. When its important, I spend time educating. My and my families own practices, beliefs, language, religion, etc. are intact. What someone else does with them doesn't affect that, doesn't belittle them. As long as they live in me and mine, they live.

Private eye? Hee, hee, thanks for the compliment. Doesn't take a private eye to find information when GOOGLE.com is your friend and the information has been posted for anyone to see. Greek Goddess, huh, that is hilarious!!!

Edited January 3, 2006 by Sioux-cia

[mako]

All this did was take me to the homepage, no documented example of racism there. I did find some interesting reading including a report I was thinking about looking up. I really injoyed the author's interjections into the official report of "What the report didn't state was...", those were cute. Funny how the NC$$ could not find a hostile or abusive environment in 2002 but they could in a blanket decree 2 1/2 years later.

[Air Force One]

http://www.usccr.gov/press/archives/2001/041601st.htm

The U.S. Commission on Civil Rights calls for an end to the use of Native American images and team names by non-Native schools.

I didn

[mako]

Just kidding about selective reasoning-no such thing-a play off of selective hearing-like when your kids only listen to what they want too. I know you

[PCM]

Would you leave a gun around the house unsecured with children around? Of course not. You can imagine a series of events with the worse possible outcome. It