University of West Georgia drops Braves name

[GCWaters]

From the Atlanta Journal Constitution website:

http://www.ajc.com/sports/content/sports/1...NWUbTTUWUXUTUZT[uUUWUbU]UZU]U^UcTYWYWZV&urcm=y

Site is free, but you might have to register....

[PCM]

From the Atlanta Journal Constitution website...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I thought this quote from the university president was quite interesting:

"Let me put it this way: When a woman feels that she is in a sexually hostile environment, we don't ask what the males hearing the jokes or the comments or whatever feel," West Georgia President Dr. Beheruz N. Sethna said. "We ask how she feels. ... Just as we consider the woman's feelings to be most significant, we need to ask how the Native Americans feel."

So if someone says your university is engaging in racist behavior, you just admit to it even if their's no proof to back up the accusation? If a woman accuses a man of rape, do we simply assume that the man is guilty, that his side of the story doesn't count and that whatever evidence he can present to prove his innocence doesn't matter?

That's a heck of a way to run a university, Dr. Sethna.

[GrahamKracker]

I thought this quote from the university president was quite interesting:

So if someone says your university is engaging in racist behavior, you just admit to it even if their's no proof to back up the accusation? If a woman accuses a man of rape, do we simply assume that the man is guilty, that his side of the story doesn't count and that whatever evidence he can present to prove his innocence doesn't matter?

That's a heck of a way to run a university, Dr. Sethna.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If it happened to your wife/sister/mom I bet you wouldn't feel the same way, would you? But of course your not a woman (not physically anyways), nor are you Sioux......so I guess you wouldn't.....no, you COULDN'T understand.

Back in the early 90's there was this incident in the Navy, called "Tailhook". All but a handful of women came forward, telling the world what happened to them. The women who didn't come forward didn't want to "cause waves", and didn't want to potentially damage their careers. They wanted to just "be one of the guys". But they won their case. And we will to.

[choyt3]

<snip>But of course your not a woman (not physically anyways), <snip>

Are you 12?

[PCM]

  If it happened to your wife/sister/mom I bet you wouldn't feel the same way, would you? 

Actually, my wife was sexually harrassed at a place where she once worked. So you strike out there. Because we worked at the same place way back then, I saw with my own eyes and heard with my own ears what was going on. She didn't have to prove anything to me.

Back when I was a young man just out of college, I once had a younger relative of mine threaten to accuse me of attempting to rape her if I didn't let her drive my new car. I've been on that end of the spectrum, too.

  Back in the early 90's there was this incident in the Navy, called "Tailhook". 

I'm quite familiar with the incident. In fact, the only time in my life I've ever been to Las Vegas was the weekend it happened. I was also a subscriber to the U.S. Naval Institute's Proceedings magazine at the time and read its detailed coverage of the incident and its aftermath. Quite obviously, the women involved deserved to win their case.

But once again, you're applying one of your extremely literal interpretations to what I'm saying. I'm not claiming that sexual harrasment never happens or that there's nothing wrong with it. I'm saying that there has to be some standard of proof. Just because somebody decides to cry racism or sexism doesn't mean that you automatically allow the label to be hung on you.

[BostonSiouxFan]

If it happened to your wife/sister/mom I bet you wouldn't feel the same way, would you? But of course your not a woman (not physically anyways), nor are you Sioux......so I guess you wouldn't.....no, you COULDN'T understand.

Back in the early 90's there was this incident in the Navy, called "Tailhook". All but a handful of women came forward, telling the world what happened to them. The women who didn't come forward didn't want to "cause waves", and didn't want to potentially damage their careers. They wanted to just "be one of the guys". But they won their case. And we will to.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[/quote

GK,

Learn to spell and use correct grammar. I believe you meant "you're" not a woman. Or were you referencing the not a woman that PCM possesses? Also, and we will "too" my friend, not to. I assume you meant you also will win your (notice the correct usage of this word here) case.

Hopefully you don't mind a little constructive (not hostile or offensive) criticism, but I can't stand reading your massacre of the English language from post to lunatic post.

[redwing77]

Are you 12?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No. GK is bitter. And he's losing the battle in the face of a recent victory.

That's why he installs name calling and insults into every one of his posts. I bet he feels like, if he insults us enough, we'll throw up our hands and say "Ok ok! Just change the name so that that big meanie will stop insulting us!"

First off, that is not the way things get done around here. You earn respect, and you earn recognition for changes. You don't throw a hissy fit and throw insults around until you get your way. That's what a 2 year old does not a grown adult trying to seek change.

Second, we are in a proof based society. Everyone though OJ, Kobe, Michael Jackson, and Blake committed crimes but they couldn't prove it. Crying "rape" doesn't cut it unless you can prove it. No proof, not guilty. It's how our system works. Want more? When those letters came out about W's military service, did we take that for fact? Some of us did. When it came out that they were fictitious, what then? What about that NY Times reporter that lied to the populace a while back? Can't remember his name, but should I remember a liar's name?

GK and Knowthefacts -- Give us proof that the Sioux nickname is hostile and abusive using facts and figures documented and confirmed legitamite to within the last 15 years (1990 or newer) that proves your point and I'll consider it. So far, you haven't done anything to do that.

[GrahamKracker]

If it happened to your wife/sister/mom I bet you wouldn't feel the same way, would you?  But of course your not a woman (not physically anyways), nor are you Sioux......so I guess you wouldn't.....no, you COULDN'T understand.

  Back in the early 90's there was this incident in the Navy, called "Tailhook".  All but a handful of women came forward, telling the world what happened to them.  The women who didn't come forward didn't want to "cause waves", and didn't want to potentially damage their careers.  They wanted to just "be one of the guys".  But they won their case.  And we will to.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[/quote

GK,

Learn to spell and use correct grammar. I believe you meant "you're" not a woman. Or were you referencing the not a woman that PCM possesses? Also, and we will "too" my friend, not to. I assume you meant you also will win your (notice the correct usage of this word here) case.

Hopefully you don't mind a little constructive (not hostile or offensive) criticism, but I can't stand reading your massacre of the English language from post to lunatic post.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I love how the people in this forum attack everything about me EXCEPT the bottom line that my people, THE SIOUX, don't want you to use our name.....keep it up, though.

[GrahamKracker]

No. GK is bitter. And he's losing the battle in the face of a recent victory.

That's why he installs name calling and insults into every one of his posts. I bet he feels like, if he insults us enough, we'll throw up our hands and say "Ok ok! Just change the name so that that big meanie will stop insulting us!"

First off, that is not the way things get done around here. You earn respect, and you earn recognition for changes. You don't throw a hissy fit and throw insults around until you get your way. That's what a 2 year old does not a grown adult trying to seek change.

Second, we are in a proof based society. Everyone though OJ, Kobe, Michael Jackson, and Blake committed crimes but they couldn't prove it. Crying "rape" doesn't cut it unless you can prove it. No proof, not guilty. It's how our system works. Want more? When those letters came out about W's military service, did we take that for fact? Some of us did. When it came out that they were fictitious, what then? What about that NY Times reporter that lied to the populace a while back? Can't remember his name, but should I remember a liar's name?

GK and Knowthefacts -- Give us proof that the Sioux nickname is hostile and abusive using facts and figures documented and confirmed legitamite to within the last 15 years (1990 or newer) that proves your point and I'll consider it. So far, you haven't done anything to do that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Everytime I do, its "not really" racism, its just some stupid kids having fun, right? Lets see....there was this time our tipi was egged ( I was there, and it was premeditated,unless everyone carries eggs in their pockets....there are the many times I was told to go back to the reservation and work at the casino.....my friends threatened and called prairie niggers......the summer I called the cops 5 times because my Native High school students were spit on, cussed at, threatened, had things thrown at them, why? Because of their long hair? Because they don't look like you?

Whatever. I have seen and felt the racism here on campus. Its not everywhere and not everyone does it, but its there. Will it get worse before it gets better? Probably. But does that mean I'm going to let up? Hell no.

So go ahead and think I hate the world. But I know that what I'm doing is because I love my people. I see them hurt, so I will stand up for them. Someday this will all be over and my people will be able to be treated with respect, treated equally, and not used as logos/mascots, but until then I will keep up the fight.

[Diggler]

Were those situations caused because of the nickname though? Changing the nickname will not prevent any of those situations from happening. Whether the nickname is Sioux or Spagetti-O's, the teepe will still be set up every year. Every once in a while, some stupid kids are going to do something idiotic. This isn't limited to the teepee though. Any time anything is set up on campus, it stands a chance of being defaced by a couple of drunken bufoons. The nickname isn't what causes these things, ignorance is. This is why instead of bickering, the two sides should work together to find a common ground and to educate people.

[MafiaMan]

Lets see....there was this time our tipi was egged ( I was there, and it was premeditated,unless everyone carries eggs in their pockets....there are the many times I was told to go back to the reservation and work at the casino.....my friends threatened and called prairie niggers......the summer I called the cops 5 times because my Native High school students were spit on, cussed at, threatened, had things thrown at them, why?

[Sioux,CO]

Everytime I do, its "not really" racism, its just some stupid kids having fun, right? Lets see....there was this time our tipi was egged ( I was there, and it was premeditated,unless everyone carries eggs in their pockets....there are the many times I was told to go back to the reservation and work at the casino.....my friends threatened and called prairie niggers......the summer I called the cops 5 times because my Native High school students were spit on, cussed at, threatened, had things thrown at them, why? Because of their long hair? Because they don't look like you?

Whatever. I have seen and felt the racism here on campus. Its not everywhere and not everyone does it, but its there. Will it get worse before it gets better? Probably. But does that mean I'm going to let up? Hell no.

So go ahead and think I hate the world. But I know that what I'm doing is because I love my people. I see them hurt, so I will stand up for them. Someday this will all be over and my people will be able to be treated with respect, treated equally, and not used as logos/mascots, but until then I will keep up the fight.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What you fail to understand Kracker is that if the name is changed there will still be problems on campus. If the name is changed I'm pretty sure there will be MORE anti-Native actions on campus, due to the fact that some students will blame your Sioux people for the name change.

Also, quit feeling sorry for yourself because we don't want to hear it. You are the most single minded person that attacks everyone and then wants the people you've attacked to feel sorry for you. Get a life.

[MafiaMan]

What you fail to understand Kracker is that if the name is changed there will still be problems on campus. If the name is changed I'm pretty sure there will be MORE anti-Native actions on campus, due to the fact that some students will blame your Sioux people for the name change.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The first sentence I agree with. The second sentence shouldn't be allowed to happen, regardless of the nickname decision.

It's hardly worthy of the keep-the-name cause to play playground bully. "Give me your lunch Billy and no one gets hurt." "Don't change the nickname or else we'll go after Indians." That's just plain wrong.

Violence against American Indians on campus AFTER a nickname change would only prove the other side's point.

[redwing77]

The first sentence I agree with. The second sentence shouldn't be allowed to happen, regardless of the nickname decision. Violence against American Indians on campus AFTER a nickname change would only prove the other side's point.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

EXACTLY.

[PCM]

Everytime I do, its "not really" racism, its just some stupid kids having fun, right?  Lets see....there was this time our tipi was egged ( I was there, and it was premeditated,unless everyone carries eggs in their pockets....there are the many times I was told to go back to the reservation and work at the casino.....my friends threatened and called prairie niggers......the summer I called the cops 5 times because my Native High school students were spit on, cussed at, threatened, had things thrown at them, why?  Because of their long hair?  Because they don't look like you?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There are two sides to every story. I'm not saying the all things you say happened didn't happen because I don't know. I know the egging incident happened because I read about it in the Herald. But without knowing who did it or why, it's impossible to know if racism was the motive.

I would hope that each incident was reported and properly investigated. I would hope that if there was validity to the charges, the authorities would have made an effort to find out who was responsible and charge them with whatever crimes applied.

What I do know is that you have demonstrated time and time again a tendency to interpret words and incidents in a literal fashion just so you can cry racism. Like it or not, it diminishes your credibility.

[MafiaMan]

[GrahamKracker]

[GrahamKracker]

[Goon]

You can read about these incidences in the Herald,  but I was there.  I was there when we were egged, and if the cops weren't driving by (who didn't catch them, by the way), we WOULD have kept up the chase and we would have dealt with it a different way.  I was there when the Frat boys walked by the tipi, war whooping and saying "go back to the res, you fucking indians"....

  Most of the reports filed have NOT been investigated because this university does not want to show the hate here on campus, that's why all of the incidences I have stated are not considered "hate crimes".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Great then you would have gotten charged with assult. Two wrongs don't make a right.

[PCM]

Most of the reports filed have NOT been investigated because this university does not want to show the hate here on campus, that's why all of the incidences I have stated are not considered "hate crimes".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So you're saying that the local media knows about the reports and is simply ignoring them?

[GrahamKracker]

[MafiaMan]

I was there when the Frat boys walked by the tipi, war whooping and saying "go back to the res, you fucking indians"....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You know what's funny, GK, is how you resent having to defend your culture everytime something bad happens, yet you have no problem throwing out the actions of a few and lumping their whole "culture" (if you will) as being entirely responsible. I was a fraternity member at UND from 1990-1992 and am apalled at the actions of a certain few. However, your absolute hatred and loating for all things that are Greek on campus and anyone wearing fraternity letters is disturbing. This doesn't diminish what happened to you in any way, shape or form. However, would you hate all people from Manitoba if the perpetrators of this incident were wearing Winnipeg Blue Bombers sweatshirts? Of course not!

If I observed a drunk Indian in a bar on a Saturday night, I do NOT make the leap to the conclusion that all Indians must be alcoholics. If I see one white southern man burning a cross, I do not assume that all southern men are rednecks. If I see a man dressed in a suit making sexually suggestive comments to his attractive administrative assitant, I do not conclude that all business men in suits are evil. Similarly, I'd ask that the actions of a few idiots wearing Greek letters should not represent Greek life across the entire campus.

[MafiaMan]

  Most of the reports filed have NOT been investigated because this university does not want to show the hate here on campus, that's why all of the incidences I have stated are not considered "hate crimes".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh here we go with the conspiracy theory. I bet George W. Bush himself is behind this!

[mikejm]

I love how the people in this forum attack everything about me EXCEPT the bottom line that my people, THE SIOUX, don't want you to use our name.....keep it up, though.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But the majority of your own people, Kracker, don't agree with you on this issue.

[#1 Sioux Fan]

GK-

I can only read so many of your posts before I have to quit and realize that you are one man - not the whole Sioux Tribe. Every accusation that Greek members on campus, students at UND, and even brown skinned people from the south are all at odds with you and the Sioux people are unfounded and foolish! Taking one incident and smearing across like a label upon all in a organization is wrong. I am amazed at the anger you put into these posts yet deny when confronted. I realize you do NOT feel respected by UND using the Sioux logo and name - Fine, point taken. This is your opinion. Do you really think that every Sioux Tribe member feels the same as you?? If so, than UND should lose the name. If not, are other members not entitled to feel honored because of what others think like yourself think? I really don't care how and when, if ever, you respond to this post, I do have better things to do. But, I am appauled on how you enjoy bringing the worst in people up over and over again. I hope you are proud and honored with your actions on this community forum.