Spirit Lake withdraws support for logo

[KnowtheFacts]

It's a lot like black folks and the n-word.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think you may be confused. Ive never met a Sioux person who was offended by being called a Sioux. I think the offense comes when a WHITE person calls *themself* Sioux and wears an Indian Head caricature on their shirt or BUTT or wherever else Grand Forkers manage to plaster that logo.

I think you might agree that a white person calling themself a "N-word" is not appropriate.

[dagies]

A SIOUX Indian wouldn't, anyways. You have to remember, back in the day the Chippewa and Sioux weren't the best of friends, now THEY are designing logos of US? That's an embarrassment in itself. Where is he at among all of these discussions. Oh wait, he took the money and ran (what little money they gave him, anyways)

Are you accepting the assistance of non-Sioux American Indians in this nickname fight?

[CoteauRinkRat]

Once again, change the moniker to the North Dakota Highway Patrol and the University is in the clear.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks again for the insight.

[KnowtheFacts]

[IowaBison]

The University is "in the clear" now.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I would have agreed with you (weakly) until Tuesday, the Spirit Lake Nation resolution is going to hurt.

[dagies]

Are you accepting the assistance of non-Sioux American Indians in this nickname fight?

In fact, I'd like to take this a little farther. Please tell us what is inappropriate about the logo. What mistakes did the Chippewa artist make in his work? What part of the logo casts Sioux indians in a bad light?

[PCM]

I would have agreed with you (weakly) until Tuesday, the Spirit Lake Nation resolution is going to hurt.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Does it repeal the First Amendment?

[CoteauRinkRat]

I would have agreed with you (weakly) until Tuesday, the Spirit Lake Nation resolution is going to hurt.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The (weakly) should have went after the resolution.

[KnowtheFacts]

Just like all the questions asked about what UND can do to honor the Lakota/Dakota/Nakota will never be answered.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ive tried several times to explain why that cant be answered, but lets slow down a little.

How about Kupchella or better yet the Board of education hold a special meeting with all of the tribal leaders (Sioux and other nations from this region).

How about it be a public and recorded meeting so we all know exactly what happened??

How about we don't let the officials at REA dictate how we run our school?

How about Kupchella meets with the People that UND has hired to work with the Native American Students here on campus and asks for their help and resource on this matter? (Native American Programs, American Indian Student Services....)

How about Kupchella get his facts straight before going public with wishy-washy info.. like the name being changed in the '20s' when it was actually changed in 1930.

How about we let an Indian man on this campus can walk down the street without racial slurs being yelled to him by people wearing Sioux jerseys?? (I heard that this happened just a few days ago)

Is that a start?

What else can we do to honor the people we wear on our shirts.??

How about talking to the native students you see on campus instead of staring or making other assumptions before you know them? Is that a good answer?

How about humility? That may be hard for you "SIOUX PRIDE" folks...

just a thought.....

[Diggler]

How about a little less hostility? I asked an honest question and got a rather snide and condescending response.

I agree with your first few points about Kupchella and UND in general hold meetings with the tribes. According to PCM, Kupchella has a weekly meeting with the Native American programs. Is this not true? I also agree with Native Americans being able to walk down the street without having things yelled at them. Along the same lines, people should be able to come to this board and discuss this issue without being called all sorts of things by GK.

[PCM]

How about Kupchella or better yet the Board of education hold a special meeting with all of the tribal leaders (Sioux and other nations from this region). 

Not a bad idea if some issues besides UND changing its nickname can be discussed.

How about it be a public and recorded meeting so we all know exactly what happened?? 

The meeting at which the State Board of Higher Education voted to have UND retain the Fighting Sioux name was on the radio. I listened to it. Is that not public enough for you?

How about we don't let the officials at REA dictate how we run our school?

They never did.

How about Kupchella meets with the People that UND has hired to work with the Native American Students here on campus and asks for their help and resource on this matter? (Native American Programs, American Indian Student Services....) 

How about discussing other issues that relate to American Indian eduction in addition to this matter?

How about Kupchella get his facts straight before going public with wishy-washy info.. like the name being changed in the '20s' when it was actually changed in 1930. 

How about you focus on something that actually makes a difference rather than whether or not someone got an irrelevant detail correct?

How about we let an Indian man on this campus can walk down the street without racial slurs being yelled to him by people wearing Sioux jerseys?? (I heard that this happened just a few days ago)

How about you not assuming that every white person who attends UND or lives in Grand Forks approves of such behavior, assuming that it did happen?

How about talking to the native students you see on campus instead of staring or making other assumptions before you know them?  Is that a good answer?

How about getting rid of that gigantic chip on your shoulder? It would make two-way communication much easier.

[kfah1]

Ive tried several times to explain why that cant be answered, but lets slow down a little.

How about Kupchella or better yet the Board of education hold a special meeting with all of the tribal leaders (Sioux and other nations from this region).

How about it be a public and recorded meeting so we all know exactly what happened??

How about we don't let the officials at REA dictate how we run our school?

How about Kupchella meets with the People that UND has hired to work with the Native American Students here on campus and asks for their help and resource on this matter? (Native American Programs, American Indian Student Services....)

How about Kupchella get his facts straight before going public with wishy-washy info.. like the name being changed in the '20s' when it was actually changed in 1930.

How about we let an Indian man on this campus can walk down the street without racial slurs being yelled to him by people wearing Sioux jerseys?? (I heard that this happened just a few days ago)

Is that a start?

What else can we do to honor the people we wear on our shirts.??

How about talking to the native students you see on campus instead of staring or making other assumptions before you know them? Is that a good answer?

How about humility? That may be hard for you "SIOUX PRIDE" folks...

just a thought.....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I do appreciate your answer to Diggler's question. Seems to be a little bit more of a response than an attack.

I can't speak to the specifics like PCM just did since I don't live out there but I don't think that changing the FIGHTING SIOUX name will change those items you've listed one bit.

And I definelty agree with PCM's response about the chip on your (and GK's) shoulder. Your true arguement/point gets lost in it. (Reference a post I made yesterday). Listening is a two-way street.

[KnowtheFacts]

How about a little less hostility? I asked an honest question and got a rather snide and condescending response.

I agree with your first few points about Kupchella and UND in general hold meetings with the tribes.  According to PCM, Kupchella has a weekly meeting with the Native American programs. Is this not true? I also agree with Native Americans being able to walk down the street without having things yelled at them.  Along the same lines, people should be able to come to this board and discuss this issue without being called all sorts of things by GK.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How was that hostile? Im not threatening to take it outside. Im not calling you names. Im giving you suggestions like you asked. You didn't like the *real* solution so I am trying to give you some other options like you wanted.

Im not sure how often Kupchella gets together with Native American Programs. I know there is a lunch thing where people attending get free lunch. As a student myself, I know that if there is a free lunch, im there, no matter what the presentation. (okay, I guess I wouldnt go if I had to sign a paper saying I supported the Fighting Sioux name or sell my soul or something like that... I do have standards...). Also I do not believe that it is in a meeting format. I cant say much else because Ive never been invited.

I never said I approved of GK's behavior on this board. However I also dont think the term "rabbit-choker" was aimed at anyone on this board. I also think that people on this board are rude both ways. Ive slipped up a few times myself, but I am trying to be civil. ANYHOW, we all know that the internet has looser standards than real life. And a man should be able to walk down the !!street!! without that kind of harrassment no matter WHAT he looks like.

[crosby_87]

[Diggler]

There was hostility in the way you responded. Your response appears accusatory rather than suggestive. At least that is the way it comes across, even if that is not the way you intended it.

It is true that a man should be able to walk down the street without being harrassed. No one is debating that. This board may also have a loser standard than "real life", but that doesn't excuse GK actions. No one should debate that. I don't think you are, but you are sort of excusing it as not being as bad because it isn't directed at a specific person. He on one hand, rightfully, criticizes people who harrass Native Americans for being Native Americans. But then he also makes many remarks on this board that such as rabbit choker or hang around the fort indians. I should have reworded my point, as it wasn't directed at anyone specifically on this board. That doesn't matter though. If I were to come on this board and make similiar comments about Jesse Taken Alive, I would be taken to task by you and GK and rightfully so. Annonimity of the internet doesn't excuse purposely idiotic and inflamatory remarks. That just wastes everyones time and adds nothing to the discussion.

[KnowtheFacts]

I wasnt here at the time of the SBHE's decision but I know that there were things that happened in the background (because of leaked documents and such...) that were NOT public information. Anyway, I wasnt referring to that event. I was referring to the event that I recommended.

Dont you think that if Kupchella cant get the easy facts straight then he isnt going to get the hard ones right either? I know if I dont know the easy stuff on my tests then the hard stuff I might as well just guess the answer... And that detail is very relevant. I doubt that any elder would give approval at that time since they were hardly regarded as citizens at that time.... Unless...Maybe it was like all the other treaties the US made with the Native Americans....You know where they told them it said one thing so they would sign, but really it said the opposite.

REA dictates what the Athletic Department does and doesnt do in regards to hockey from all I have heard. Thats why Students are so pissed off about hockey tickets every year.... PLUS REA announced they weren't covering the logos no matter what - before UND/Kupchella ever made a statement to that effect.

They can talk about other things too, but we are talking about the logo in here. Here is the American Indian Student Services Report to the NCAA. Sorry I dont have the exact spot, but it states a few times that AISS was not consulted before a response was drafted. Then when they were consulted, their recommendations were not addressed in the final report.

This isnt about a chip on my shoulder. Im not accusing all of you of being the person who yelled the racial slur. I am trying to say that it does happen. And I know that it will happen whether the name is changed or not. Honestly I think that when the name is changed it will get worse, because people value the sanctity of their logo more than a human being. But FEAR is not a good reason to let the logo stay, neither is threatening to take away NA programming, and neither is harrassment.

I DO think that racism is not just obvious things. While the obvious acts such as racial slurs and SIOUX-per dogs are easy to point out, the majority of racism is a very subtle thing. Like the unspoken act of crossing the street when you see a group of dark-skinned individuals walking your way... Or a female holding her purse tighter as a black man walks by... an employee following a minority around the store while he or she shopping...

I just did a quick search on google and this article seems like an okay primer..Racism is Subtle. Maybe even the examples he points out are too obvious for some..... I think we are all a lot more racist than we would like to think. Just that the word "racist" is so damn ugly that we dont want to admit it. Im a racist. I have faced that fact and no I have never tied a kid to a fence and beat him, Ive never worn a white pointed hat, but I do have biases that I realize almost daily.

[KnowtheFacts]

Thank you for that. Just exactly how is the nickname "hostile" like the NCAA says? We aren't threating to take Sioux Indians outside. We aren't calling them names? So tell me exactly how it is hostile?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You tell me, He accussed ME of being hostile in my response. I guess you can be hostile in more subtle ways as well, but that certainly was not my intent. (as your intent is not to be hostile to Native Americans with th logo.)

so Thank YOU for that.

[KnowtheFacts]

Diggler, Im sorry you interpreted my response as hostile, because that certainly was not my intention. maybe you could interpret it as frustrated, but not hostile. I was simply trying to answer you question.

okay..... I *just* said that I didn't agree with GKs behavior. How is that excusing it?

[Diggler]

okay.....  I *just* said that I didn't agree with GKs behavior.  How is that excusing it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I wasn't saying you were excusing him completely. You said "However I also dont think the term "rabbit-choker" was aimed at anyone on this board". This seems to suggest that since GK wasn't making the comments against anyone who was on this board, that it wasn't as bad as someone yelling across the street at a Native American student. I would think they are both equally offensive. Whether you say something to someone's face or behind their back doesn't change the severity of what you are saying.

Maybe you agree, maybe you don't. Either way, it's ok. We don't have to continue clarifying what we meant by what we said.

[mksioux]

Turtle Mountain Tribal chair: UND has done 'a good job'

It appears that reports that Turtle Mountain would draft a resolution opposing UND's appeal were premature.

Yes, the Turtle Mountain tribe is Chippewa, but at least it's something.

[GrahamKracker]

[GrahamKracker]

Turtle Mountain Tribal chair: UND has done 'a good job'

It appears that reports that Turtle Mountain would draft a resolution opposing UND's appeal were premature.

Yes, the Turtle Mountain tribe is Chippewa, but at least it's something.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

WOW, Go figure!!! Lets see.....TM is designing the logos, TM has a majority of the Indians going to school on this campus, TM is the one trying to get the casino here, and I bet if you lined up MANY, not all, but MANY of the TM NDNs w/ average joe-shmo Caucasian people on the streets, I bet you couldn't even tell them apart. I do know that because many of the TM Natives don't look Indian, they don't face the racism the rest of us Genetic and Phenotypic looking Indian face.

We'll see what happens, but they aren't Sioux, so what does it matter anyways? Thats like the a Cherokee Tribe saying that the Seminole logo/mascot is okay....lol.

[Diggler]

You have a reason why everything you say is ok. It's ok for you to call Bennett Brien a rabbit choker, it's ok for you to call Lakota who disagree with you Hang Around the Fort Indians. I only have one question, am I also allowed to do this?

[GrahamKracker]

You have a reason why everything you say is ok.  It's ok for you to call Bennett Brien a rabbit choker, it's ok for you to call Lakota who disagree with you Hang Around the Fort Indians.  I only have one question, am I also allowed to do this?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If Bennett can take his lips off that bottle long enough to tell me that he is offended by my "rabbit choker" comments then I'll.....wait, no I won't. So what? You think because I'm Indian that I have to be at peace w/ all Indians? Not on your life. I just call it like I see it. Plain and simple.

[Diggler]

If Bennett can take his lips off that bottle long enough to tell me that he is offended by my "rabbit choker" comments then I'll.....wait, no I won't.  So what?  You think because I'm Indian that I have to be at peace w/ all Indians?  Not on your life.  I just call it like I see it.  Plain and simple.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Of course not. You don't have to be at peace with anyone you don't want to be at peace with.

Now you are suggesting Bennett is an alcoholic? This is why you have very little credibility. You came here saying you wanted to discuss this issue. As time has progressed though, you have n't really been discussing as you have been insulting all sort of people. That's your right to do, but don't pretend that you are here for any other reason though.