DI vs DII (Horizon League)

[star2city]

[url="http://www.in-forum.com/articles/index.cfm?id=106938

[IowaBison]

Three thoughts.

1. From Bunning's comments in the last week, I think that there will be a "decision" on reclassification by the end of the school year. In other words, at the conclusion of the study there will be a big press conference to say Yes or No to the DI question. Yes it's fast (especially given the University's and its fans repeated slow, deliberate process comments), but there are certain factors that make a decision sooner rather than later advantageous to the University.

2. Kupchella's cryptic and confusing comments from last November's letter to Fighting Sioux backers "ultimately it may make no otherwise logical or financial sense to ..." makes more and more sense !

3. I don't think that UND has a conference invite waiting for them, unless they are considering the Sun Belt.

[star2city]

Three thoughts.

1. From Bunning's comments in the last week, I think that there will be a "decision" on reclassification by the end of the school year. In other words, at the conclusion of the study there will be a big press conference to say Yes or No to the DI question. Yes it's fast (especially given the University's and its fans repeated slow, deliberate process comments), but there are certain factors that make a decision sooner rather than later advantageous to the University.

2. Kupchella's cryptic and confusing comments from last November's letter to Fighting Sioux backers "ultimately it may make no otherwise logical or financial sense to ..." makes more and more sense !

Iowabison:

Your comments are more cryptic than Kupchella's. A forthcoming BSC conference invite to UND changes the "logical or financial sense" of a Division I move. No longer having to deal with an independent status while undergoing the NCAA transition period is a big deal.

3. I don't think that UND has a conference invite waiting for them, unless they are considering the Sun Belt.

Perhaps your emotions are getting in the way, as UND getting a DI conference invite immediately will be especially painful to NDSU pride after all the DI crowing and bravado done by their fans.

[bincitysioux]

Anybody know what the $$ is that UND would get from the Frozen Four if we were DI in all sports?

[tony]

star2city, the problem NDSU folks have with UND's administration is that we think that UND's administration is comprised of a bunch of double-talkers. None of President Kupchella's objections to going DI had to do with not having a conference lined up. You guys seized on that because you read the Carr Report. If you look through the following source material, you won't see conferences mentioned. It's all about the expense, the cesspool that DI was supposed to be (except hockey), the unattractiveness of DI-AA competition, etc...

02/21/2002 President Kupchella: "UND Sees No Compelling Reason For DI"

02/27/2002 Grand Forks Herald: "Costs Outweigh DI Benefits"

05/28/2002 Grand Forks Herald: "Bison's DI Move Makes No Sense"

09/06/2002 Grand Forks Herald: "Division I: Say No!"

12/28/2002 Grand Forks Herald: "DI: Sucker's Game"

07/03/2004 AD Roger Thomas Star Tribune interview: "We'll see how the transition period goes for NDSU. Maybe we'll see that Division I in all sports would make sense for us, too, although I doubt it."

11/27/2004 President Kupchella: "is division Iaa really a higher level of competition?"

11/27/2004 President Kupchella: "I want you to know that I hate the idea that NDSU even appears to be making a move ahead of us in any way whatsoever"

11/27/2004 President Kupchella: "I recognize that we may have to make this move even though, ultimately it may make no otherwise logical or financial sense to do so."

When bills were introduced to the legislature trying to hamper or prevent NDSU from going DI (and, yeah, I'm sure UND wasn't consulted even though the "*except hockey" clause miraculously appeared in the bills), it wasn't lack of a conference that was cited. It was that mean old NDSU was preventing North Dakota athletes from playing DII sports. It was that it was way too expensive. It was NOT that NDSU should find a conference first.

You can yell as loud as you want and sputter until your face is beet red, but it will not change the facts. UND going DI would be a complete 180. Hopefully if they can do the about face on that, they can also take another page from Chapman's book and start saying what they mean and doing what they say.

[IowaBison]

Perhaps your emotions are getting in the way, as UND getting a DI conference invite immediately will be especially painful to NDSU pride after all the DI crowing and bravado done by their fans.

Perhaps they are. I would be happy to see UND move DI and get a conference invite because I believe (vindictive thoughts aside) that it would help NDSU considerably.

I just don't see a conference interested in UND right now, if you have anything tangible I love to know about it. Your previous posts referring to comments about Division I, conference affiliation, and UND make about as much sense as John Nash's highlighted passages from Time and People magazines.

[#1 Sioux Fan]

I find it amazing that SU is able to finance their move to DI without a conference in football. While UND is playing ball well into Nov - Dec; SU will be dreaming of candy canes and Lolly pops. UND's approach to DI is very well thought out - why would anyone go DI without a confernce to play your number II sport in (#1 sport down in SU land) Big Sky is not interested in adding UND and for that matter any team from the east - when will SU see that?? It all comes down to money - to much in travel for schools already strapped for cash.

This maybe a fanatsy, but with NCAA pushing to drop the # of scholarships available to DII football schools - could there be a loophole to allow only your football team to go DIAA and leave remaining programs at DII. This could open the door for a few other schools - SCS, UNO , SD, and maybe Duluth - opening the door for UND, SU and SDSU to form a league simular to the NCC. Let's face it - basketball, volleyball, soccer, and baseball don't stand a chance at ever seeing March madness . How SU will continue to support these programs will be quite amazing! The same could be said for UND if they made the move up.

[IowaBison]

#1 Sioux Fan.

NDSU does have a conference (which could use a few more members) for football. We definitely need a conference for basketball (NCAA $$$), we will have one in wrestling soon possibly as part of the Big XII, and the other sports could definitely use one. Not having a conference has been tough on recruiting and balancing the books, but I think SU has done quite well.

I have seen nowhere that a conference is interested in UND (unless you want to count the letter from the BSC sent out last Fall which is a heck of a stretch in my book).

The UND administration and its fans have repeatedly stated that they will only move if they have a conference affiliation in place. Hence, their most recent actions must mean that they have received a unpublicized invite (I doubt it). I think the mitigating factor is the need to keep up with NDSU; I think that public perception is the reason.

Finally, UND's delusion of the NCAA changing the classification rules because of the needs of their team and at most two or three others in DII makes no sense. If something does happen to the classification rules (and it could, possibly) it will be to meet the needs of all the folks who don't fit (financially troubled DI-A schools, the non-scholarship DI-AAs, DI-AAA), DII is an afterthought.

[bincitysioux]

One of the things that Roger Thomas said way back when was, "We'll see how the transition period goes for NDSU. Maybe we'll see that Division I in all sports would make sense for us." Part of the reason UND is looking into it again could be because UNC/NDSU/SDSU have not totally fell on their faces. UNC got a conference invite in their 3rd year. NDSU is ranked in the top 25. SDSU has put together a fantastic bball schedule. NDSU and especially SDSU have had enormous increases in attendance in football. These could all be mitigating factors in UND looking into it again.

[The Sicatoka]

If something does happen to the classification rules (and it could, possibly) it will be to meet the needs of all the folks who don't fit (financially troubled DI-A schools, the non-scholarship DI-AAs, DI-AAA), DII is an afterthought.

Sadly, there are far too many "don't fits" in the NCAA today. The current NCAA divisional system is broken (in my opinion). Why?

- If you live in an area where hockey and lacrosse are the popular sports and want to play both at DI level you have to "throw in" your golf, swim, and other teams.

- If you live in an area where soccer and basketball are the popular sports and want to play both at DI level you have to "throw in" your softball and volleyball teams.

- If you live in an area where hockey and football are the popular sports and want to play both at DI level you have to "throw in" your baseball and cross-country teams.

I've long said a "cafeteria plan" style would be better for the fiscal health of college athletics. So what if you want to play low-budget ball in some sports and big-budget ball in others. And as long as you are compliant with Federal law (Title IX) why should there be any arbitrary minimum number of sports to sponsor?

I say the road to fiscal self-sufficiency in college athletics at all levels is to let the schools pick the sports and level they want to play at (while meeting Title IX) without arbitrary and capricious "minimum sport" requirements. They'll play what makes sense to them (based on constituency and finances).

[Hansel]

Posted this earlier, but it is appropriate in this thread IMO

BALTIMORE -- Division II's effort to change how the Association views football classification encountered strong tailwinds and heavy headwinds during the same September 27 meeting.

The Division II Football Task Force meeting included several Division I-AA representatives who reacted positively to efforts to create postseason opportunities for Divisions I and II programs that offer few or no scholarships. However, Division I-AA's fully funded programs appeared less enthusiastic about a proposal that would decouple Divisions I and II football from the traditional NCAA membership classification system and enable football programs to choose competition levels based on how many grants-in-aid they provide.

In a nutshell, UND will not be a DII school playing IAA football.

[url=http://www2.ncaa.org/page_printer.php?url=http%3A//www2.ncaa.org/media_ahttp://www2.ncaa.org/page_printer.php?url=...caa.org/media_a nd_events/association_news/ncaa_news_online/2005/10_10_05/division_ii/4221n18.html&title=NCAA%20-%20I-AA%20interests%20balk%20at%20alternative%20classification%20proposal]

[The Sicatoka]

Better link: http://www2.ncaa.org/media_and_events/asso...ii/4221n18.html

"If you're one of the Division II or I-AA schools fighting for a spot in the playoffs, you might think everything is OK," said Wingate University President Jerry McGee, task force chair. "But if you're one of the 90 percent who aren't, you might think there's a problem."

With that in mind, members of the task force and the I-AA guests readily agreed that Divisions I and II should further explore what can be done to provide postseason access for low- or no-scholarship programs, either in the form of an additional playoff or through a series of regional "bowl games."

Sounds like all is not well in DI-AA-land (much less DII-land) when "90 percent" aren't playing for a playoff spot.

There are schools that have a team and schools that fund a team. A cafeteria plan would allow them to sort themselves out without the extra baggage of some arbitrary "division" level for all sports to have to deal with (primarily fiscally).

[Hansel]

Better link: http://www2.ncaa.org/media_and_events/asso...ii/4221n18.html

Sounds like all is not well in DI-AA-land (much less DII-land) when "90 percent" aren't playing for a playoff spot.

There are schools that have a team and schools that fund a team. A cafeteria plan would allow them to sort themselves out without the extra baggage of some arbitrary "division" level for all sports to have to deal with (primarily fiscally).

The NCAA should try and keep links under a 1000 characters

Wingate is a DII school, I don't know how their president speaks for IAA interests, the only IAA complaining are the so-called "mid-majors" which offer either limited (NEC,MAAC) or no (Pioneer) scholarships.

[IowaBison]

Who cares if 90 percent of the teams aren't playing for a playoff spot? This isn't elementary school gym class (or DII football playoffs).

There is a tradeoff between the number of playoff spots and the differentiation between playoff/non-playoff quality teams (a good parallel is all the no-name bowls for DI-A teams that go just over .500). I don't see the need a fourth of the teams making the post-season.

I understand that UND wants to have its cake and eat it too (everyone does). Fortunately, most folks aren't delusional enough to think it's going to happen.

[SiouxMD]

Greetings,

The following article, Character or Cash: Why All That Glitters isn't Gold, deals with changing athletic affiliation (NAIA to NCAA). Obviously, not the same scenario UND faces but some food for thought.

Author's final thought (in a nutshell)...

[tony]

One of the things that Roger Thomas said way back when was, "We'll see how the transition period goes for NDSU. Maybe we'll see that Division I in all sports would make sense for us." Part of the reason UND is looking into it again could be because UNC/NDSU/SDSU have not totally fell on their faces. UNC got a conference invite in their 3rd year. NDSU is ranked in the top 25. SDSU has put together a fantastic bball schedule. NDSU and especially SDSU have had enormous increases in attendance in football. These could all be mitigating factors in UND looking into it again.

Hehehe, Roger Thomas said a lot of things, mostly contradictory (i.e. he double-talked).

Anyway, I figure that decision to go DI is UND's to make so I won't chip in with my thoughts. Believe me, it's a big jump, and I know it'll be harder for NDSU to succeed in DI with UND out there competing for recruits and resources - just as it would be if UND went first and NDSU followed. That said, I'll be there to welcome you guys to tailgating at Bison-UND games when NDSU hosts one again. Heck, I'd love to see if star2city looks a apopleptic as he sounds... if so, maybe a beer would calm him down

Good luck with the decision. If NDSU's administration does anything to try to screw you over (for example, sitting on contracts for 10 months and then ripping it up at the last minute), they'll hear from me about it.

[bincitysioux]

Anybody know what the $$ is that UND would get from the Frozen Four if we were DI in all sports?

[SiouxMD]

Actual numbers may be hard to come by but I did find this...

ESPN.com

[UND Fan]

My thoughts on UND formally looking at a move to DI:

-- It is about time! Although I personally feel staying DII is the best for us at this time, it is important that we finally take a serious look at all ramifications of the move: costs (scholarships, recruiting, travel), conferences, alumni support ($), etc. We have been making comments for years - mostly negative against moving - but have done so without formally evaluating all the pros and cons.

-- I do not believe that we will make a decision by the end of the school year UNLESS the study reveals a very strong case for going one direction or the other. I believe that, if the study indicates the move to DI is appropriate, it will have an action plan in place "when the time is right". That may mean when DII cuts FB scholarhsips again or when a conference affiliation is available. It coulld be two years from now or five years downt he line.

-- I do not believe we have any guarantees from the BSC or anyone else. I do believe that we think there is a reasonable chance that the Big Sky will expand in the next few years.

-- I know that part of the study will include discussions with UNO, USD and maybe SCSU, MSU and UMD. I would also hope that we would not be too proud to talk to NDSU and SDSU. Getting the major players of the old NCC together to strategize can only be a benefit - to NDSU and SDSU as well as UND. On a side note, I think both UND and NDSU acted very childishly the last couple of years regarding SU's move to DI. I wouldn't blame SU for not being overly open to discussions but it would be in everyone's best interest.

-- I am quite sure that we will also spend quite a bit of time with Maine, New Hampshire and other schools of similar size - who happen to also play DI hockey. We have an awful lot in common with those universities.

-- I hope that there is an announcement soon regarding a new practice/track facility at UND. This would put us in the position to 1) continue to be a dominant force in DII athletics with a major improvement in Track or 2) position us to be in great shape facility-wise for a move to DI.

-- I know that, if we make the move, it will be very frustrating for us UND fans for a few years. While we may have some facility advantages over our friends 70 miles south, they will be far ahead of us in the transition. In other words, they will likely kick our butts in most sports for a few years. That will be difficult for us to swallow!

Again, I personally feel we would be better off staying in DII. I think we could compete well in FB in IAA quite soon but I think we would disappointed in our ability to compete in all other sports. The costs and inability to recruit talented kids to the plains of ND would be a huge challenge!

[star2city]

star2city, the problem NDSU folks have with UND's administration is that we think that UND's administration is comprised of a bunch of double-talkers. None of President Kupchella's objections to going DI had to do with not having a conference lined up. You guys seized on that because you read the Carr Report. If you look through the following source material, you won't see conferences mentioned. It's all about the expense, the cesspool that DI was supposed to be (except hockey), the unattractiveness of DI-AA competition, etc...

Getting into a DI conference reduces expenses, increases income, and makes a move much less severe in that there would actually be a conference championship to play for. Kupchella has stated: "if the restrictions on schools making the move were made less severe" DI would receive more consideration.

02/21/2002 President Kupchella: "UND Sees No Compelling Reason For DI"

02/27/2002 Grand Forks Herald: "Costs Outweigh DI Benefits"

05/28/2002 Grand Forks Herald: "Bison's DI Move Makes No Sense"

09/06/2002 Grand Forks Herald: "Division I: Say No!"

12/28/2002 Grand Forks Herald: "DI: Sucker's Game"

07/03/2004 AD Roger Thomas Star Tribune interview: "We'll see how the transition period goes for NDSU. Maybe we'll see that Division I in all sports would make sense for us, too, although I doubt it."

11/27/2004 President Kupchella: "is division Iaa really a higher level of competition?"

11/27/2004 President Kupchella: "I want you to know that I hate the idea that NDSU even appears to be making a move ahead of us in any way whatsoever"

11/27/2004 President Kupchella: "I recognize that we may have to make this move even though, ultimately it may make no otherwise logical or financial sense to do so."

When bills were introduced to the legislature trying to hamper or prevent NDSU from going DI (and, yeah, I'm sure UND wasn't consulted even though the "*except hockey" clause miraculously appeared in the bills), it wasn't lack of a conference that was cited. It was that mean old NDSU was preventing North Dakota athletes from playing DII sports. It was that it was way too expensive. It was NOT that NDSU should find a conference first.

So you are still embittered about a few petty legislators (some of whom were NDSU grads)? Let the anger go, Tony, it's not good for your heart. But again, being an independent causes expenses and revenue and the whole athletic program to suffer - not a difficult concept to comprehend there. Does everything have to be stated so explicitly? Even Jeff Kolpack has stated that something to the effect that if NDSU fails to find a conference within a few years, the Division I move will have to be considered a failure.

You can yell as loud as you want and sputter until your face is beet red,

So the concept that UND already has an informal Big Sky bid in hand irritates you that much, Tony? BTW, I would bet even money that UND (as well as NDSU and SDSU) will be in the Big Sky for the 2008-2009 season. (I like those odds.)

but it will not change the facts. UND going DI would be a complete 180. Hopefully if they can do the about face on that, they can also take another page from Chapman's book and start saying what they mean and doing what they say.

You mean like Chapman stating "competition is good" after duplicating UND programs but then closing down UND-Fargo when "competition" was no longer in his interest?

A fundamental concept that NDSU fans have never grasped is that the DI decision is not DI vs DII, but really a multiple choice of (a) DI in the Big Sky (or Horizon), (b) DII in the NCC, © DI in the MidCon, (d) DI as an independent. The answers, for UND at least, are: (a) > (b) > © > (d). Choice (a) is only now attainable.

[UND Fan]

[IowaBison]

I would bet even money that UND (as well as NDSU and SDSU) will be in the Big Sky for the 2008-2009 season. (I like those odds.)

I give the Bison at best a 3-1 shot of being in the Big Sky in the near future, UND 8-1.

But since you made the offer first I bet you a coke that UND won't be in the BSC by 08/09 (I'd love to be wrong on this one, but I don't see it happening).

[UND-1]

I give the Bison at best a 3-1 shot of being in the Big Sky in the near future, UND 8-1.

But since you made the offer first I bet you a coke that UND won't be in the BSC by 08/09 (I'd love to be wrong on this one, but I don't see it happening).

Do you think NDSU will get in the Big Sky without UND?

[IowaBison]

I think your sentiment about NDSU/UND being a BSC package deal is absolutely ludicrous.

The major (only?) hindrance to NDSU finding a conference is its location. If a travel partner is needed, the Bison have one in SDSU. I have no idea what UND brings to the table other than the currently comatose rivalry.

The BSC has repeated its criteria for expansion regularly over the last few years: geography and academic quality. It's huge unstated standard is presence in a large markets (Northridge, Portland State, UNC, Sac-State). Concerns regarding athletic competiveness, commitment to gender-equity and student-athletes have also been voiced.

I don't see for a second how UND trumps SDSU in any of these categories, though some are definitely arguable. Given the fact that SDSU is currently DI definitely gives them a leg up.

[IowaBison]

I agree that SDSU is ahead of UND right now, but the only case I can see for a Big Sky expansion at this point in time is to a 12 team conference. I don't buy the "we didn't discuss this" PR--I think it's definitly on the agenda and, if it is, I expect the expansion to be NDSU, SDSU, and UND--if UND can get their act together and make a committment to moving...

I don't see the benefit of having three teams in the Dakotas (or Upper Midwest) in the Big Sky, talk about a scheduling mess. And I definitely don't see anyone else moving up, even if UND does.