Going D1-AA

[bigmrg74]

UND isn't the only D2 powerhouse school out there that's under pressure from some of their supporters and fans to move up to being D1-AA. Quite a few others, like GVSU is being pressured to make the move. I thought I would just ask what would it really take to move up to D1-AA?? The hard numbers of making it work right if you will.

[The Sicatoka]

From NDSU's Carr Report:

The Consultants recommend that the University begin the transition process, but only after it has achieved the following:

- Establish an institutional consensus that the reclassification from NCAA Division II to Division I-AA is consistent with the University

[bigmrg74]

Ahh.... yeah, the Carr report. Do you got a link of it online somewhere?? Thanks Sicatoka

[bisonguy]

Ahh....  yeah, the Carr report.  Do you got a link of it online somewhere??  Thanks Sicatoka

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Look here for the Carr Report results- http://www.ndsu.edu/ndsu/administration/pr...ive_summary.pdf

Here's a good recap of info from when NDSU began the transition to DI- http://www.in-forum.com/specials/d1decision/

(you have to register for the in-forum site)

[bincitysioux]

Can anybody name the schools that have that are DI in all sports, DI-AA in football, and have DI hockey? Looking at the types of schools that do, and hopefully if they do it successfully, could be a big help in determining if UND has what it takes to be successful at the next level (I think they do). Personally, I'm really big into the idea of I-AA football at North Dakota, but I'm not willing to allow our hockey program to suffer in order to get it. For that reason, I love RT's idea of letting schools move up in football but not other sports. I know that it'll never happen, but if it were an option, I'd easily take DI hockey, I-AA football, and DII everything else over DI everything.

[bisonguy]

Can anybody name the schools that have that are DI in all sports, DI-AA in football, and have DI hockey?  Looking at the types of schools that do, and hopefully if they do it successfully, could be a big help in determining if UND has what it takes to be successful at the next level (I think they do).  Personally, I'm really big into the idea of I-AA football at North Dakota, but I'm not willing to allow our hockey program to suffer in order to get it.  For that reason, I love RT's idea of letting schools move up in football but not other sports.  I know that it'll never happen, but if it were an option, I'd easily take DI hockey, I-AA football, and DII everything else over DI everything.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Here's the schools that are I-AA in football and have DI hockey, with their I-AA football conference in parentheses:

Brown (Ivy), Colgate(Patriot), Dartmouth(Ivy), Harvard(Ivy), Holy Cross(Patriot), Maine (A-10), UMass(A-10), New Hampshire(A-10), Northeastern(A-10), Princeton(Ivy), Sacred Heart(Northeast), and Yale(Ivy).

[Smoggy]

I believe UND was really taking a close look at Maine due to hockey dominance and closeness in size of universities.

[bisonguy]

I believe UND was really taking a close look at Maine due to hockey dominance and closeness in size of universities.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I believe that UND was looking at New Hampshire, as well.

[Smoggy]

I believe that UND was looking at New Hampshire, as well.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think you're right, but didn't they formally meet with Maine when the hockey team was there?

[bincitysioux]

Here's the schools that are I-AA in football and have DI hockey, with their I-AA football conference in parentheses:

Brown (Ivy), Colgate(Patriot), Dartmouth(Ivy), Harvard(Ivy), Holy Cross(Patriot), Maine (A-10), UMass(A-10), New Hampshire(A-10), Northeastern(A-10), Princeton(Ivy), Sacred Heart(Northeast), and Yale(Ivy).

Just for demographic comparisons, here are some numbers averaged out for these twelve schools:

Total enrollment: 11,833

City Population: 94,693 (If you throw out Northeastern in Boston it is 51,120)

Avg Football Attendance: 8,061

Avg Hockey Attendance: 3,036

These schools seem to be pretty comparable to North Dakota as far as school sizes are concerned (only Harvard, UMASS, and Northeastern are much larger, around 24,000 enrolled). The only school located in a major metro city is Northeastern (Boston). Brown, Harvard, and Holy Cross are in cities about the size of the FM area. Fairfield (Sacred Heart) is the size of GF while the rest of the schools are located in much smaller cities.

As far as fan support for the sports goes, UND draws a better crowd to both football games and hockey games than nearly all of these schools. Only Harvard, Princeton, and Yale draw better than UND for football, and none draw more for hockey. As for facillities, the Alerus seats more for football than six of these twelve schools with DI Hockey and I-AA football.

UND Enrollment: 13,000

GF Population: 54,000

Avg FB Attendance: 9,389

Avg Hky Attendence: 10,870

[IowaBison]

Just for demographic comparisons, here are some numbers averaged out for these twelve schools:

Total enrollment: 11,833

City Population: 94,693 (If you throw out Northeastern in Boston it is 51,120)

Avg Football Attendance: 8,061

Avg Hockey Attendance: 3,036

These schools seem to be pretty comparable to North Dakota as far as school sizes are concerned (only Harvard, UMASS, and Northeastern are much larger, around 24,000 enrolled). The only school located in a major metro city is Northeastern (Boston). Brown, Harvard, and Holy Cross are in cities about the size of the FM area. Fairfield (Sacred Heart) is the size of GF while the rest of the schools are located in much smaller cities.

As far as fan support for the sports goes, UND draws a better crowd to both football games and hockey games than nearly all of these schools. Only Harvard, Princeton, and Yale draw better than UND for football, and none draw more for hockey. As for facillities, the Alerus seats more for football than six of these twelve schools with DI Hockey and I-AA football.

UND Enrollment: 13,000

GF Population: 54,000

Avg FB Attendance: 9,389

Avg Hky Attendence: 10,870

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

two things you missed

1. Money, those are some of the most well endowed schools in the country

2. Your average population numbers are deceiving. Sure Harvard is in Cambridge population whatever, it also happens to be in one of the largest metropolitan areas in the nation. Anyone in NYC who wants to can make a weekend trip to Princeton or New Haven.

[bincitysioux]

two things you missed

1.  Money, those are some of the most well endowed schools in the country

2.  Your average population numbers are deceiving.  Sure Harvard is in Cambridge population whatever, it also happens to be in one of the largest metropolitan areas in the nation.  Anyone in NYC who wants to can make a weekend trip to Princeton or New Haven.

Very true, the Ivy schools have tons of money, but I'd think that New Hampshire, UMASS, and Maine would be good comarisons to evaluate any potential UND move.

I think if you look at the attendance numbers for these schools, it shows that being in a big market isn't as important, rather the size of your school enrollment and alumni. Look at Harvard, I don't know how big the Boston metro is, around a million with all the suburbs? They have a 31,000 seat football stadium and they average 11,000 per game. UMASS is in a dinky town out in the middle of nowhere and they still draw about 7,600 for FB games. I just don't think it matters so much the size of a city. More so, the type of alumni a school has, and whether or not they'll support the school.

[The Sicatoka]

Here's the schools that are I-AA in football and have DI hockey, with their I-AA football conference in parentheses:

Brown (Ivy), Colgate(Patriot), Dartmouth(Ivy), Harvard(Ivy), Holy Cross(Patriot), Maine (A-10), UMass(A-10), New Hampshire(A-10), Northeastern(A-10), Princeton(Ivy), Sacred Heart(Northeast), and Yale(Ivy).

You missed Cornell and Canisius (or did the Golden Griffins drop football and go DI-AAA?).

In terms of region and regional population base and general demographic, Maine is the best comparison.

Cornell and Colgate would be the next two best choices. UNH is closer to Boston and gets some commuter influence but would probably be the next closest followed by Dartmouth.

[bisonguy]

You missed Cornell and Canisius (or did the Golden Griffins drop football and go DI-AAA?).

In terms of region and regional population base and general demographic, Maine is the best comparison.

Cornell and Colgate would be the next two best choices. UNH is closer to Boston and gets some commuter influence but would probably be the next closest followed by Dartmouth.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I knew I'd forget at least one. Cornell is, of course, another Ivy school with a I-AA football program.

Canisius is DI-AAA (no football)

Maine is by far the best comparison, with a similar enrollment and budget(relatively speaking- last year it was $12MM).

[The Sicatoka]

Canisius is DI-AAA (no football)

But only recently did they become a I-AAA.

They were a I-AA in the 2002-03 season.

http://www.bizjournals.com/buffalo/stories...28/daily34.html

[star2city]

From NDSU's Carr Report:

From SDSU's Carr Report:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Southland Conference has made their expansion picks known: Central Arkansas (a DII team for this year) and TexasA&M-Corpus Christi (an independent DI). The repercussions of these choices are that (a) the Mid-Continent conference is now in no rush to expand (if the Southland had taken Centenary, the Mid-Con would have been forced to add at least one team, maybe two, this summer), (b) precedent has been set for a DII school (Tarleton State), to apply for a DI conference, be turned down, and then stay DII, and (c ) schools in geographically remote areas (i.e. U Texas-Pan American in the Rio Grande Valley) are at a major disadvantage for conference affiliation (few conference options, travel issues - without a travel partner, UTPA has no other options now but wait for the Southland, again), and (d) an independent conference will now be even more difficult to form (Corpus Christi no longer available, so UT-Pan American no longer has a travel partner). Now an independent conference would be composed of just one true travel partner set, but otherwise horrendous and expensive travel:

Utah Valley State

Texas-Pan American

New Jersey Institute of Technology

Longwood (Va)

IPFW

South Dakota St

North Dakota St

Of the above, Longwood will likely get in the Big South this summer or next, IPFW within a few years to the MIdCon, NJIT to the Northeast Conference, and, with UND, SDSU and NDSU to the Big Sky late this decade.

[star2city]

Quite a few others, like GVSU is being pressured to make the move.  I thought I would just ask what would it really take to move up to D1-AA??  The hard numbers of making it work right if you will.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Monster:

What are you guys waiting for? You need to campaign your Laker troops to get Grand Valley State in this DI conference before its too late. You can be a Founding Father!

Monster Travel Conference

Grand Valley State

Utah Valley State

Texas-Pan American

New Jersey Institute of Technology

Longwood (Va)

IPFW

South Dakota St

North Dakota St

[UND92,96]

star2city:

What is the maximum number of schools you would foresee being in the Big Sky at any given time? Would USD be a candidate for a dI move and potential Big Sky membership? I suspect there would be a lot of pressure for them to move if they were the last of the big four Dakota schools to remain in the NCC and dII. For that matter, would UNO ever consider seeking to remain with its traditional NCC rivals in a Big Sky eastern division instead of remaining dII and going to the MIAA, or going dI and trying to get into the Missouri Valley/Gateway conferences?

[star2city]

star2city:

What is the maximum number of schools you would foresee being in the Big Sky at any given time? Would USD be a candidate for a dI move and potential Big Sky membership? I suspect there would be a lot of pressure for them to move if they were the last of the big four Dakota schools to remain in the NCC and dII.  For that matter, would UNO ever consider seeking to remain with its traditional NCC rivals in a Big Sky eastern division instead of remaining dII and going to the MIAA, or going dI and trying to get into the Missouri Valley/Gateway conferences?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In its former golden days (before Idaho, Boise St, and Nevada left), the Big Sky was immeasurably happy with nine. With their current nine arrangement, I don’t think anyone is all that pleased as there is too much travel and too few real rivalries. That is why 12 teams with two divisions would satisfy almost all the current schools, as Montana schools get “real” rivalries with state schools and the travel would not increase much for West Coast schools. Even though a 12 school conference hurts the odds of getting a basketball bid, with its current membership, it adds stability. With its current nine members(or even if Sac St leaves for the WAC), going to 10, 11, or more than 12 would not be acceptable.

IMO, UNO is probably the consensus choice and is already in informal discussions with the Gateway Conference. The problem is they really would need a basketball conference, and the MidCon likely has some really good alternatives, with decent media markets, as their next choice: Northern Kentucky, IPFW, UNO, and maybe even Grand Valley State. In the next major conference shakeup, UNO could be in a decent position to get into a higher level conference (the Horizon or MO Valley, if Creighton left, which may be possible after a Big East split), so it would be doubtful that the Big Sky would be of any interest to them. Moreover, the only natural rivalry in the Big Sky would be with UNC. They have much more natural ties to schools in places like Des Moines, Kansas City, and St. Louis, which are not of particular interest to UND or NDSU (but are of interest to SDSU).

U of South Dakota is not in a strong position, needing money, facilities, and having the misfortune of being in the far corner of South Dakota without any townspeople to speak of. If the Big Sky did move to 12 (adding UND, NDSU, and SDSU), and then a west coast school left, USD would probably get some consideration. But that would be at least 5-7 years out.

The major caveat in all this Big Sky talk is for Montana to stay DIAA. If they move up to the DI WAC, the whole dynamics of the Big Sky changes and the possibility of UND or NDSU in an DI autobid conference likely couldn’t happen until the middle of next decade.

[bigmrg74]

[star2city]

Monster:

You was being sarcastic right there star2city??

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Notice I didn't include UND in the conference. But if GVSU moved up into that situation, it would get rid UND of a main challenger for DII trophies and bleed all your $'s and fan enthusiasm out of your program at the same time. Your leadership is too smart to fall into that DI ego trap.

[The Sicatoka]

I'd see GVSU as being smart and patient enough to wait and see if the MAC is going to have to split into two halves, a DI-A part and a DI-AA part, for football (because of the 15000 average attendance requirements). They'd be able to stay together for other sports like BB.

What that could allow GVSU to do is slip into the MAC as a DI-AA. That'd be a best case scenario of epic proportion.

The catch is this: Other GLIAC teams probably have this same fantasy.

Of course another catch is that MAC schools (led by the president of Kent State, who at the time is the president of the NCAA board of directors) have already started the effort water down that rule (see 2005.20 in the link).

[bigmrg74]

What that could allow GVSU to do is slip into the MAC as a DI-AA. That'd be a best case scenario of epic proportion.

The catch is this: Other GLIAC teams probably have this same fantasy.

Yeah, rumor actually has it that Wayne State in Detroit, has actually been looking into going D1-AA. I think the move might actually help them in keeping some of the Metro Detroit area talent around perhaps. If GVSU moves up to D1-AA, I'm pretty sure that's going to stick in the craw of the fans and boosters of schools like Ferris and Saggy.

[bigmrg74]

[Notice I didn't include UND in the conference.   But if GVSU moved up into that situation, it would get rid UND of a main challenger for DII trophies and bleed all your $'s and fan enthusiasm out of your program at the same time.  Your leadership is too smart to fall into that DI ego trap. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, thanks for the backhanded compliment there, I think.