Reasons for Keeping the Name

[GrahamKracker]

Mitaku yepi iyuha,

Instead of me trying to inform you of why the name should be changed, I would like to know why you insist on keeping a name that doesn't fit the majority of the people in this region of the country. Please post what you consider truths as to why you think UND should keep their nickname and I will respond accordingly.

I would like to keep civil, but that is up to you. I can not speak for the entire Oceti Sakowin, nor do I claim to, but I can tell you what they have officially done in the past and where they stand, and ironically I take the same side.

Fire away, and hopefully we all can become more educated on this issue.

Ho hetche to yelo. Wana.

[bigmrg74]

Doesn't the Native American people have bigger issues to worry about than some name used by some college? What about combating the rampant alcoholism, poverty, health issues and unemployment? Surely that might be something you might want to worry about more than a name. Its kinda what the Daily show said about Congress the other day. Don't they have bigger issues to deal with than to worry about wither or not Jose Consaco injected steriods into Mark McGuire's Buttocks??

[The Sicatoka]

Reasons for keeping?

Because the majority of Native Americans say it should not change.

"Asked if high school and college teams should stop using Indian nicknames, 81% of Native American respondents said no."

Source: Peter Harris Research Group, Inc., as reported in Sports Illustrated, March 4, 2002, page 69.

Methodology: The pollsters interviewed 351 Native Americans (217 living on reservations, 134 living off). The responses were weighted according to US census figures for age, race, gender, and the distribution of Native Americans living on and off reservations.

Margin of error: Plus or minus 4 percent.

[ESPNInsider]

Just to point out I'm not sure how good those SI polls are. They never seem to poll very many people, but then come out twist it so it seems like a very convincing argument.

That being said, I agree with you so don't hate me

[MafiaMan]

GrahamKracker,

I respect your right to disagree. After all, this is America. My basic argument has been North Dakota high schools. I am curious why the Lakota people would be outraged over the use of "Sioux" when describing the University of North Dakota, yet not opposed to local high schools such as Stanton, Solen, and SRCHS-Fort Yates. I do not understand the logic that the word is racist, yet will not only be tolerated at predominantly Native schools, but CELEBRATED there.

Peace to you as well.

[The Sicatoka]

Just to point out I'm not sure how good those SI polls are.

That's no poll.

The methodology is scientifically accepted practice for surveys done by a nationally respected survey agency, Peter Harris Research Group, Inc. (They put their name and reputation on it.) That wasn't a survey in the hallway.

[ESPNInsider]

That's no poll.

The methodology is scientifically accepted practice for surveys. That wasn't a survey in the hallway.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Acceptable, yes, but not very informative. Did you see their special sections on each state? The "scientifically accepted" practice also showed Kerry won! Good thing we don't live by these!

[Sioux-cia]

Mitaku yepi iyuha,

  Instead of me trying to inform you of why the name should be changed, I would like to know why you insist on keeping a name that doesn't fit the majority of the people in this region of the country.  Please post what you consider truths as to why you think UND should keep their nickname and I will respond accordingly.

  I would like to keep civil, but that is up to you.  I can not speak for the entire Oceti Sakowin, nor do I claim to, but I can tell you what they have officially done in the past and where they stand, and ironically I take the same side.

  Fire away, and hopefully we all can become more educated on this issue.

Ho hetche to yelo.  Wana.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hmm, Graham Kracker, huh? Your parents must have a good sense of humor. I know Mitaku means "relations or relatives" and Hetchi to Welo (not yelo) means 'it is said'. Wana means now or in combination with another prefix means flower and probably other words as well. Why don't you translate the words that I 'm guessing we're to assume are Sioux. I don't want to respond to your forum without understanding every work in your complete post.

[GrahamKracker]

Doesn't the Native American people have bigger issues to worry about than some name used by some college?  What about combating the rampant alcoholism, poverty, health issues and unemployment?  Surely that might be something you might want to worry about more than a name.  Its kinda what the Daily show said about Congress the other day.  Don't they have bigger issues to deal with than to worry about wither or not Jose Consaco injected steriods into Mark McGuire's Buttocks??

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What's more important to a nation than how that nation is thought of by the rest of the world? A name is sometimes all a person has. I'm not saying that is the case now, but when this name was started, it was pretty close. 75 years ago, the Sioux Nation had everything taken from them, even our name.

A name not only defines who a people are, but it also how the world treats them. My people the Sioux have lived through much in the last 150 years, including genocide, smallpox, and downright racism. We have come a long way, and as our people are becoming more educated, we will continue to fight for equality and justice for how we are defined, and the teams here on campus DO NOT represent who we are as a people. they can try to be couragous and honorably, but the only way they can truly live up to the name is to accomplish what they claim to do, and if that happens, they won't be using the name Fighting Sioux, which would be the highest honor UND could bestow on the Sioux nation. (And by the way, if that happened, the Sioux people, believe it or not, will still exist, and the teams on campus will still be kicking a$$.)

[GrahamKracker]

Reasons for keeping?

Because the majority of Native Americans say it should not change.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't know the answer to your question, but I can give you my assumptions:

a. Having taken a research class and understanding methodology, I can tell you that how a question is asked and how a question is worded can have an impact on the answer given.

b. Where I'm from, over 29% of the people don't have phones, so I don't know how valid the study would be. Asking Indians over the phone is like using the web to do a survey, you won't get a correct sample of all of the population you are attempting to reach.

But regardless of the outcomes of the survey, the bottom line is that the Sioux Tribes themselves have asked for the university to change the name/logo. You can do all of the polling you want, but this country is founded on democracy, and the tribes use the same procedures to implement our resolutions and requests to the rest of the world. I hope that answers your question.

[siouxfan499]

GrahamKracker,

I respect your right to disagree.  After all, this is America.  My basic argument has been North Dakota high schools.  I am curious why the Lakota people would be outraged over the use of "Sioux" when describing the University of North Dakota, yet not opposed to local high schools such as Stanton, Solen, and SRCHS-Fort Yates.  I do not understand the logic that the word is racist, yet will not only be tolerated at predominantly Native schools, but CELEBRATED there.

Peace to you as well.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Stanton no longer competes in sports on their own they have co-oped with Center and they are the Wildcats. Solen has rennamed their school district and they are now Dakota Oyate. Standing Rock and Dakota Oyate both use native american monikers because THEY ARE NATIVE AMERICANS on the Standing Rock Sioux reservation. I never got the chance to compete against the players from Standing Rock in basketball, but I did get to play against Dakota Oyate and Mandaree. They took pride in their nickname and they acted like real gentlemen......they were some of the finest players that I played against in my 4 years at Rhame High School. If they can take pride in their nicknames, I'm sure the vast majority take pride in the fact that the University of North Dakota is a dominant school with a nickname that honors the Sioux tradition.

[GrahamKracker]

GrahamKracker,

I respect your right to disagree.  After all, this is America.  My basic argument has been North Dakota high schools.  I am curious why the Lakota people would be outraged over the use of "Sioux" when describing the University of North Dakota, yet not opposed to local high schools such as Stanton, Solen, and SRCHS-Fort Yates.  I do not understand the logic that the word is racist, yet will not only be tolerated at predominantly Native schools, but CELEBRATED there.

Peace to you as well.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good question. Where I'm from in SD we have the same HS's using names like warriors and braves, but I think you answered your own question. These schools are predominately Native, most of them were founded by providing an education to Native children and have a long history behind them.

The state of ND is made up of approximately 8% Native Americans, yet at this institution there is less than 4% of Native students, with even less than 2% of them being of Sioux Ancestry. Would it be difficult to find a problem with the FS name if we had 25%, 50%, 70% of Natives at this school, or if this school was founded as an "Indian" school back in the day? You bet your ass, but that isn't the way it is. This school was founded in 1883, at a time when My people the Sioux still roamed the plains w/ no fences, when the Government was trying to find ways to exterminate my people.

Why is is that Native people are put into a category of mascots that includes animals? Sure you can claim Norwegian ancestry and bring up the Vikings, but not all people of scandinavian descent made it their life to pillage villages or roam the seas. Besides, do Vikings exist today? I don't think so, but the Sioux do. Our language, our stories, our way of life is still alive and well. We may not live in tipis anymore, but we are still here.

Sorry to make that so long. I hope it helps.

[LeftyZL]

I can understand your position of why you think we should change the name, but in my 4 years of going to school here I have never seen a student disrespect the name or the logo. You ask around the conferences we belong to, and every other school envies our logo. It's a great honor to wear that logo on the player's uniforms and I'm sure they understand the significance of it as well. But as a side note, how come we don't hear about Florida State Seminoles or the Washington Redskins ever changing their name or being pressured to do so? I think if you took a poll of people around the area and the country that went to this school or are a native american, I think you would be surprised by how many people are in favor of keeping the name. Just because we'd change the name, doesn't mean people wouldn't still call us the Sioux. It's tradition, it's whats been engrained into our bodies. It's like the Central High School Knights here in town. They were the Redskins, but changed their name. You ask anybody now that knew Central and I will guarantee you that they will say they were the Central Redskins, not the Knights. It's all about tradition. Changing the name won't change the way people view our school. We are and will always be the Sioux.

[GrahamKracker]

[MafiaMan]

I hope I didn't answer my own question, Kracker. Are you saying that nicknames like "Warriors" and "Sioux" are only honorable if a majority of players on the local team are Native American? Surely you must be joking. If that's the case, let's root on the Compton High "Niggaz" because of the high percentage of inner-city African-American youth there and maybe the South Central "Latin Kings" because of all the Latino gangs in the area. If it's racist, it's racist across the board. Not hip hop and cool if you say it, but racist if I do.

[bigmrg74]

[GrahamKracker]

I can understand your position of why you think we should change the name, but in my 4 years of going to school here I have never seen a student disrespect the name or the logo.  You ask around the conferences we belong to, and every other school envies our logo.  It's a great honor to wear that logo on the player's uniforms and I'm sure they understand the significance of it as well.  But as a side note, how come we don't hear about Florida State Seminoles or the Washington Redskins ever changing their name or being pressured to do so?  I think if you took a poll of people around the area and the country that went to this school or are a native american, I think you would be surprised by how many people are in favor of keeping the name.  Just because we'd change the name, doesn't mean people wouldn't still call us the Sioux.  It's tradition, it's whats been engrained into our bodies.  It's like the Central High School Knights here in town.  They were the Redskins, but changed their name.  You ask anybody now that knew Central and I will guarantee you that they will say they were the Central Redskins, not the Knights.  It's all about tradition.  Changing the name won't change the way people view our school.  We are and will always be the Sioux.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wow, you "will always be Sioux". I know some people won't ever let go. But only a couple hundred years ago this country thought it was okay to own slaves. 100's of thousands died to change that mentality. Only half a century ago, if you were of color, you weren't allow the same benefits as those with white skin. Traditions run deep in this country, but does that make them right?

Every month there is a school that has changed it's name because it is considered dehumanizing. I know some will never understand this view because they have never been out of their comfort zone and surrounded by people not of the same background.

Do me a favor, go look in the mirror and say to yourself "I will always be Sioux" 10 times. Does that make you feel like a powerful warrior? Now imagine coming to next weeks Wacipi and saying it to the Natives that will be in attendance there. I'm sure you won't feel the same.

Regardless of how people on the streets feel, the Sioux Tribes have requested the retiring of the name. This one fact means more to me than the opinions of others including Native people who are for the name and especially how the Higher Ed Board feels.

By the way, I didn't know they were the Redskins, I always thought they were the Knights, so i guess not "everybody", maybe just those in your circle. peace.

[Northcountry]

Up front - please forgive my ameteuristic forays into history and psychology. I am not formally trained in either but they form the bases for my arguements. First - I was born and have lived my entire life in North DAKOTA - do we change that name because it also dishonors American Indians (it is being used by white people who are the vast majority of the state's population)? Do the cities of Lakota and Wahpeton also need a change of identity? My contention is that as a native North Dakotan - It is my history too, everything that is and has occurred in the land where I live is part of me and I am part of it and we remember what we treasure by ensuring that the names of these things live on (that is why we have family names that pass from generation to generation). The quickest and surest way of disappearing is to change one's name - is that what is being asked?

Are the histories of the peoples of North Dakota so separate that they cannot be shared? Can Indian history and European history not occupy the same space? Do you really want a society in which all traces of American Indian history are erased?

If the answer to these questions is yes, is it because you feel you have something that you don't want to share? "This is mine and you can't have it - any of it". I don't pretend to be Sioux and I don't pretend to be Norwegian, Irish, Jewish, or African, only a North Dakotan and it is my history too.

[GrahamKracker]

[bigmrg74]

[GrahamKracker]

Up front - please forgive my ameteuristic forays into history and psychology.  I am not formally trained in either but they form the bases for my arguements.  First - I was born and have lived my entire life in North DAKOTA - do we change that name because it also dishonors American Indians (it is being used by white people who are the vast majority of the state's population)? Do the cities of Lakota and Wahpeton also need a change of identity?  My contention is that as a native North Dakotan - It is my history too, everything that is and has occurred in the land where I live is part of me and I am part of it and we remember what we treasure by ensuring that the names of these things live on (that is why we have family names that pass from generation to generation).  The quickest and surest way of disappearing is to change one's name - is that what is being asked?

Are the histories of the peoples of North Dakota so separate that they cannot be shared?  Can Indian history and European history not occupy the same space?  Do you really want a society in which all traces of American Indian history are erased? 

If the answer to these questions is yes, is it because you feel you have something that you don't want to share?  "This is mine and you can't have it - any of it".  I don't pretend to be Sioux and I don't pretend to be Norwegian, Irish, Jewish, or African, only a North Dakotan and it is my history too.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's fine to be a North Dakotan. Most of this countries state's names are derived from Native words and that's not what we're asking. The "Sioux" people are not history. We are a part of history, but we are still here. We still practice our Lakota/Dakota/Nakota ways of life. We are not only in history books, we are here making history now.

Lets face it, naming a team the Sioux has nothing to do with the History of the Sioux Nation, not a damn thing. We are not going to disappear when the name changes (even though I know some of you would like us to disappear now). In a Hundred years when you look up Sioux in the Dictionary, there won't be a hockey team or even a reference to UND, it will talk about the Sioux people, not people wearing green wigs.

This name was started when there were other characters like little black sambo, Popeye beating up on the "Japs" (or so the comic said), and others dehuman others because they are different from the majority. How many Sioux were going to school when this "honorable" name was started in 1930? I big fat goose egg.

I don't think most go to a hockey game to learn history. I think they go to make history, not to think "I'm so grateful I came and seen these Native Americans perform at intermission and read plaques under these indian statues. Wow, Now I feel so informed about Native American culture and have a deeper understanding for those Sioux people. (I just wish those whining Indians would go get jobs and get the hell off our campus)" How ironic is this? Those you hate are the ones who you are "honoring"....lol

[Uncle_Rico]

(I just wish those whining Indians would go get jobs and get the hell off our campus)"  How ironic is this?  Those you hate are the ones who you are "honoring"....lol

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I was open in hearing whar you had to say until the comment you made above. As far as I'm concerned, all your credibility went down the crapper. Passing judgement on every person on this website is like school on Sunday.....

No Class.

What amazes me about your quasi intellectual commentary is that YOUR commentary smacks of racism and intolerance. I don't know of anyone in their right mind that chooses a symbol because they disrespect whatever that symbol may be. But somehow you have decided that UND's recognition of your forefathers honorable heritage is racist. PLEASE, understand one thing, your anger is painfully obvious, maybe you should redirect it in a more productive manner that will help to better society and make a meaningful difference instead of taking up a "cause" that only reveals that you obviously have issues you need to deal with in a more constructive and honorable way.

One other ovservation if you will. What's in the past is exactly that, in the past. History is full of stories of people being taken advantage of, it's NOT right, but remember one thing. Neither you nor I were there, therefore we are not responsible for what many would classify as "your" people, or "my" people. Small minded people judge others by the color of a person's skin, decent thinking individuals judge others by their actions.

Like I said, I was open to hearing your point of view, but after reading your comment above I will not be back on this thread to hear anything else you have to say, so no need in replying to this.

[dakotadan]

[dakotadan]

Mitaku yepi iyuha,

[CVCL]

You asked for reasons to keep the name.

1. The name change won't mean a thing .

The name doesn't hold native people back and hold them as second class. Reservations do that. The name is not even a piece of sand in the mountain of so called racism. So, if your argument is that once all the names are changed, we'll be able to respect ourselves more and the citizens of the US/World will respect us in a greater way, you're kidding yourself.

2. The name is actually a positive for native peoples if you look closer at the issue.

You state that other people in the world are not held up for scrutiny/reflection as the Native Americans. Remember that people around the world do not market their culture philosophically. (Ok, we won't discuss missionaries because this message board or topics do not need the baggage.) If anything, people around the world market their culture and heritage at face value. You can argue that there are many forms of this, both the monetary and historical aspects at the forefront. Whatever the reason they do it for positive and genuine reasons.

My point is that the State of North Dakota and other states with native heritage celebrate that heritage. Look at our teachings for our youth or even our museums. If you're a cynic you can blast away at the intentions but I feel they are real. What have native peoples done to help others understand their culture? If you don't feel as if you need to, you are sorely mistaken. Cultures that do not defend themselves (physically or theoretically) do not last.

3. There are people that take pride in your name that are not Sioux.

You may be ethnocentric enough to believe that only the Sioux can feel pride in your name but you are wrong. Your ancestors were treated in a way of the times. History when looked at in retrospect is always easy to be judged harshly. Remember that far greater travesties have become of man than the native people of America. This is not my point however. I am a full blooded North Dakotan. I've been to every county in the state. I grew up going to small towns and other areas for hunting purposes. What I learned was how great and how diverse of a state we have. I consider the history of the state and the land itself as part of who I am. Both ideas, ancestry/tradition and mother earth, are tenants of the Native American, no? You are wrong to deny people the chance to celebrate your heritage as part of theirs. It is not trivial to have the institution named after your people. It only reminds those who feel as I do what your people have contributed to their lives. Don