A Sign Of The Future?

[JBB]

Its a good recruiting tactic for wrestling. I think overall we will see a more transfers for basketball and football too. In football the waiting period will be 5 years including the provisional. 2003 - 2007 is the probationary interval. Playoff eligiblity begins in 2008.

Its going to be most difficult this year. Incoming redshrts will be Srs. in 2007. In 2004 incoming redshirst will be Srs in 2008 the first year of playoff eligibilty. So, it wont be much of a problem with a lessening impact each year. By 2005 it will have no practical impact on recruiting.

The full ride dollars are going to speak loudly. At 2-10 the program can only look better unless coach bob is going to take us all the way down to an 0 fer. If thats the case it will be next year. We have a very tough schedule with a team that didnt show much last year. Baring a miracle in 2005 he is out. That will give a new D1 coaching staff 3 prime years to get ready.

Sometime after 2008 you will become weary of the series and certainly wont hang around long enough to allow another 12 game winning streak to develop. The question is how many losses in a row will you tolerate before bailing out, or will NDSU become your big body bag road game for the money?

We are now in the toughest recruiting year of the entire transition. The "Transition Bowl" that UC Davis and NDSU are discussing may help some. Its intended to give the teams a travel opportunity to a nice place and a post season game.

Either way NDSU is now in the process of loading up. Of course first to worst gave you a break from your historically furious playoff appearances as well.

[jimdahl]

Of course first to worst gave you a break from your historically furious playoff appearances as well.

Hey, we resembl... er... resent that remark. Fortunately, NDSU managed to save us from actually being worst. We are going to miss you when you're gone

Back to the D-IAA move--there's no doubt the transition period will be difficult and have a negative impact on recruiting, but it is only temporary. I think that's a big part of UND's hesitation, they're afraid to go through the years of pain. Thomas hinted at as much in the earlier statement about how if the rules became less punitive, that may sway them.

[JBB]

Just think of the joy if you are able to establish a winning tradition over a D1AA NDSU like Davis has against Sac State? It could be tough for BISON fans! But, as I have pointed out, this is really not about sports at all. Sports are the most visible aspect of the entire Universitie's transformation.

If NDSU joins a conference like the Big Sky its very possible we will never again have a common conference affiliation, even after you move up, but if NDSU is part of a new conference formation it's possible you may move up into that one re-creating the old status quo. Whatever happens it will be fun and exciting to watch it all unfold.

[Goon]

If NDSU joins a conference like the Big Sky its very possible we will never again have a common conference affiliation, even after you move up.

JBB its obvious that you know nothing about what you talk about maybe you should go back to play makers and drink some more.

The Big Sky has said it is not interested in adding NDSU and the Gateway conference has said the same thing. Nobody wants NDSU. So I am not sure why you NDSU clowns still keep talking about joining Division 1AA. You cant even compete at the Division II ranks in Football.

[star2city]

Let me get this straight:

An NDSU fan, bisonguy, starts this thread by stating the recruiting of the Dahlen twins is a coup over UND and more such signings will occur just because NDSU is going Division I, in spite of the ineligible time. I post a FORUM article on the extreme difficulty a successful NDSU wrestling program will now have to recruit. This article refutes the premise of the thread and someone takes offense at that? Because UND does not have a wrestling program, that somehow makes the subject matter off limits for discussion, when the whole issue is Div I and the transition difficulties?

The article and the posting did not attack or degrade the wrestling program. The posting was just further evidence that the new NCAA rules on transition time to Division I will be a major impediment to improvement or could possibly even devastate athletic programs (whether that is NDSU, SDSU, or UND).

Even NDSU and SDSU leadership would seem to concur with these statements: NDSU has acknowledged a level of risk in their decision and SDSU is attempting to mitigate the risk by gaining conference acceptance before pursuing Div I.

[JBB]

Read goons response. That's the image he creates for himself. An intellectually bankrupt angry fool. Buffoonery is not attractive. If you cant exchange ideas without exposing how absolutely shallow your thinking is you might do well to sit and smile. Its far more becoming.

I don't know what will happen with the conference affiliation. Its true the Big Sky has said they don't want to expand. That's as far as your understanding goes. You have no other insight except the pathological need to see NDSU fail. When you get to the limits of your thinking (always sooner rather than later) you seem to get agitated and lose what little cognitive abilities you may have mustered. Then you lash out. Thats the final refuge of a lot of you on this board. Hopefully your not the cream of the crop up there.

Thinking beyond the obvious, the conferences appear to be posturing. What they say may be an absolute, but its just as likely that the stated position is subject to change as the situation evolves.

[The Sicatoka]

And that's why throught all of this conversation I've maintained that the key isn't what the individual institutions do, but what the NCAA does in 2004.

NDSU has upped the ante and started the "DI probation clock." Their choice.

SDSU has noted a need for a conference affiliation before a move. Their choice.

UND has decided to stand pat. Their choice.

Who knows what's in store when the NCAA relooks at the divisions and how it will affect these positions.

Scenarios? Who knows.

Remove the "play up in a non-FB or BB sport" rule? UND would move up to protect hockey.

Create a full IAA (all sports) level? That's anyone's guess.

Change the minimums and maximum levels for participation in a division? Again, who knows.

Heck, allow scholarships in DIII? That'd change the landscape also.

We're all in a tizzy over this and by the end of 2004 the NCAA could have all the decision factors changed.

[JBB]

Your right. 2004 is a key, but the NCAA is not known for radical moves. The loophole may be closed. I think that's a possibility. I think the probation periods will be maintained. Its possible that a D1AA division will be created. I think that's the most exciting since it will take in all schools like most of the NCC, existing D1AA schools and a lot of D1 schools. It could be a great division.

I for one feel very good about the position NDSU has taken. They cant be hurt by their decision. Whatever happens they will have a year of probation served and if its impossible to move they can stay without penalty. Its a clear win/win. However, I cant see them staying. There is no longer an upside to remaining in D2 and the only way hockey will be played in Fargo is if NDSU is D1. Only then can the program be added.

I

[Goon]

Read goons response.  That's the image he creates for himself.  An intellectually bankrupt angry fool.  Buffoonery is not attractive...

He who lives in a glass house should not throw stones. NDSU is going to be without a conference. Who is going to take them? I think NDSU's division one upgrade is a pipe dream. They are going to sacrifice the NCC for the presidents grand illussions of some big scheme to make his university look bigger than it actually is. Stupid Idea and a lot of people in Fargo have said as much...

[JBB]

Giving up the NCC is not that big of deal. Its a conference that has a future no brighter than D2. It is a minor league sports conference for D1 hockey schools. It will follow the fate of D2 which includes fewer scholerships and more influence over policy from much smaller schools than most in the NCC. As D2 diminishes there is no upside for NDSU staying D2. Its better to move and start the probationary clock ticking as soon as you can.

If you agree that sports help a University with visibility and peer group influence then you have to agree that D1 sports programs are important. NDSU cant add hockey because there is no facility and no conference. By moving the rest of the sports up the only remaining problem is conference affiliation. That situation is being played out right now. It will be solved by joining an existing conference (s) or starting a new one. It may mean a year or two as an independent. Time will tell, but either way the scheduling and list of opponents that will appear in Fargo and on the NDSU schedule will have a lot more impact than an NCC schedule.

NDSU may very well leave the NCC but what people love about it will still remain. The Fabulous Fargo Dome will be packed when you bring your team to town. UNC will remain a big opponent and Davis will be in town for many years to come. These are big games. Replacing Augi and Mankato with Northern Iowal, Montana etc will certainly be a step up. SDSU and USD are good rivalries but they can be replaced, especially USD. SDSU is on the fence and may even join us in D1 which would assure a continuation of competeition.

There is very little downside to a move up by NDSU. The downside of staying D2 and a member of the NCC is much greater. Thats what your constituency of experts is forgetting. Its those facts that are driving the move. Certainly, your tremendous insight aside, the conference affiliation issue will be solved.

The money issue is well covered with funds available, there will be far more student athlete opportunity with the increase in scholarships, NDSU will reap the benefits of new affiliations and the world will go on. Its a win win for NDSU, but I wouldnt expect you to see that.

[The Sicatoka]

JBB:

" ... the NCAA is not known for radical moves" and seldom for rational moves.

You dare speak of second class status for Bison football? Blasphemy! They'll take away your super-secret Bison football playbook decoder ring if you keep that up.

I could see basketball, but hockey has long been a tough sell in Fargo. (Bears, IceSharks are gone; Concordia, a DIII power, barely out-draws the UND women.) I'm not trying to "dis" you with that, but history points that direction.

SDSU, fiscally, is in a worse position than NDSU (based on CSL Reports) and probably UND. That has to be a major factor to their Regents to consider.

All the schools are hedging their bets, and they should. (No one looks out for you but you.)

Like I said, prepare for 2004 for in the manner that best suits how the situation is perceived.

(And remember, UND has until August 2003 to put itself in the same posture that NDSU has assumed. That is not completely outside the realm of possibilities.)

[JBB]

I like the hedging of your bet. The real problem with this discussion is a lack of honesty on the part of some Sioux fans. UND wants to move up too but has been locked into a position that makes it difficult. Your future in D2 is the same as NDSU but your commitment to D1 hockey has you hedging your bets.

Its unfair to critisize NDSU on the way they have conducted the move. there is no other way to do it. You cant always move ahead with the promises in place. UC-Davis is an exception to that rule, but they will still be an independent in football.

The future of the NCC really isnt in D2, but as long as most of the schools feel that way there is no changing. Look at SCSU. One of the best football teams in the country. They cant draw flies, but put the hockey team on ice and they get a great crowd. Mankato struggles in the same way. UNO, not even a WCHA member certainly puts the emphasis on the hockey.

Those hockey programs face the same kind of costs as a D1 NDSU football or basketball program. It is possible for NDSU to travel and generate revenues. It is possible for a D1 NDSU to make sports work. Certainly it would be easier with the NCC moving along, but they wont. Some may end up following, but there is no profit in waiting. That has been going on since 1974.

I also believe there is a place for NDSU hockey. I think a BISON hockey team would have a lot more drawing power than concordia or a semi pro team. Nobody has tried to bring a Semi-pro team into GF, at least to my Knowledge, and the Sioux do just fine. Its the draw of the college team up there and I believe it will be the same in Fargo. NDSU club hockey had a great following but when it became clear there was no future it fizzled. A D1 NDSU will certainly add hockey in the future.

[Riverman]

I like the hedging of your bet. The real problem with this discussion is a lack of honesty on the part of some Sioux fans. UND wants to move up too but has been locked into a position that makes it difficult. Your future in D2 is the same as NDSU but your commitment to D1 hockey has you hedging your bets.

Its unfair to critisize NDSU on the way they have conducted the move. there is no other way to do it. You cant always move ahead with the promises in place. UC-Davis is an exception to that rule, but they will still be an independent in football.

The future of the NCC really isnt in D2, but as long as most of the schools feel that way there is no changing. Look at SCSU. One of the best football teams in the country. They cant draw flies, but put the hockey team on ice and they get a great crowd. Mankato struggles in the same way. UNO, not even a WCHA member certainly puts the emphasis on the hockey.

Those hockey programs face the same kind of costs as a D1 NDSU football or basketball program. It is possible for NDSU to travel and generate revenues. It is possible for a D1 NDSU to make sports work. Certainly it would be easier with the NCC moving along, but they wont. Some may end up following, but there is no profit in waiting. That has been going on since 1974.

I also believe there is a place for NDSU hockey. I think a BISON hockey team would have a lot more drawing power than concordia or a semi pro team. Nobody has tried to bring a Semi-pro team into GF, at least to my Knowledge, and the Sioux do just fine. Its the draw of the college team up there and I believe it will be the same in Fargo. NDSU club hockey had a great following but when it became clear there was no future it fizzled. A D1 NDSU will certainly add hockey in the future.

Wow talk about hedging a bet.NDSU-D1 Ice Hockey.Dust off your Green and Scream Yellow(gold) glasses.

Next thing you know NDSU will be in the WCHA right?

Does it bother the good people of NDSU-Fargo that the hockey program at UND grabs the headlines?(see second full page SI article about Zack this year)

Jbb,One minute you say hockey isn't a good sport.The next minute the Bison might,will,sort of want to,yup,nope, going in a few years.yadda,yadda yadda.

And you give UND crap about sitting on the fence?

Sioux Falls SD has a semi pro team and NO D1 college hockey.Why can't F-M hold on to a team?

[JBB]

Goon, you try too hard and you have so little to work with. give your self a break.

I never said hockey wasnt a good sport, its a great revenue sport because of all the home games. NDSU in the WCHA? I dont think so. It was explored a few years back. NDSU and hockey. NDSU is 2-0 vs uendd in varsity hockey. Our program was eliminated in th 30's. We used to put the rink on Dacotah Field.

I think Hockey is a natural evolution for NDSU athletics. Its been bubbling under for at least 20 years. The club hockey team was a huge push but it didnt materialize. the big reason: no arena.

Once the move is made I think an arena is in the cards. It may be anyway if the Fargo Dome Authority moves ahead with plans to build out of exisiting revenues. That wont require a vote. It there is an ice sheet and enough seats I think hockey at NDSU is almost a given.

[The Sicatoka]

Could NDSU add hockey? Sure, if they had the facilities, but the rest of their athletic house had better be in order (fiscally) or the howls from the academics and the TeamMakers could be deafening.

I'm not saying it can't happen, but for it to happen the circumstances have to be very right.

I think "DI" in itself is probably enough on Gene Taylor's plate for quite a while. I'd guess he'd agree.

But JBB, not long ago you were saying hockey expense (and losses) was the reason that SCSU and MSU-Mankato wouldn't go up. Now you are saying hockey could be a revenue generator. I believe that is what 'Goon' tried to call you on.

PS - UNO is in the CCHA with Michigan, Michigan State, Ohio State, et al.

[U2Bad1]

I have heard certain bison radio personalities say that D-1 hockey is off the table with the whole athletic department going up.

[jimdahl]

Its unfair to critisize NDSU on the way they have conducted the move.  there is no other way to do it.  You cant always move ahead with the promises in place.  UC-Davis is an exception to that rule, but they will still be an independent in football.  

I still disagree with this, as did your consultants, as did SDSU's consultants, as does the SDSU administration. Oien has stated explicitly that SDSU will not move without a conference.

Those hockey programs face the same kind of costs as a D1 NDSU football or basketball program. It is possible for NDSU to travel and generate revenues. It is possible for a D1 NDSU to make sports work. Certainly it would be easier with the NCC moving along, but they wont. Some may end up following, but there is no profit in waiting. That has been going on since 1974.

Well, this is tricky. As you've pointed out, hockey is a very different sport from football or basketball for schools the size of UND or NDSU that play "big time" hockey but "small time" football and basketball. Take UND:

21 home games this season * 11,000/game = 231,000 through the turnstile

For an NCC school to generate that sort of gate from another sport would be hard:

Football-- assume 5 home games, average attendance needed: 46,000 (not gonna happen).

Basketball-- assume 15 home games, average attendance needed: 15,400 (not gonna happen).

That's why UND is so concerned about hockey -- they're getting the gate that a Minnesota gets in football or that North Carolina gets in basketball. No NCC school is going to hit those levels in football or basketball any time soon. That's why NDSU has been so interested in hockey for 20 years (despite lack of an interested fanbase). Further, another profitable sport and relationships with schools such as Minnesota and Wisconsin could actually have made it easier to go D-I. Ironically, those exact benefits are keeping UND from moving (grrrr) because they already feel "big time" enough.

[Goon]

I never said hockey wasnt a good sport, its a great revenue sport because of all the home games. NDSU in the WCHA? I dont think so. It was explored a few years back. NDSU and hockey. NDSU is 2-0 vs uendd in varsity hockey. Our program was eliminated in th 30's. We used to put the rink on Dacotah Field.

I think Hockey is a natural evolution for NDSU athletics. Its been bubbling under for at least 20 years. The club hockey team was a huge push but it didnt materialize. the big reason: no arena.

Once the move is made I think an arena is in the cards. It may be anyway if the Fargo Dome Authority moves ahead with plans to build out of exisiting revenues. That wont require a vote. It there is an ice sheet and enough seats I think hockey at NDSU is almost a given.

JBB,

Why not Division 1 hockey? I think Division 1 hockey at NDSU would have been a much better idea than this rediculous pipe dream of NDSU playing in Division 1 AA. I hardly doubt that FSU, Texas, Nebraska, Notre Dame is going to come to Fargo to play Basket.

A great idea, why not tear down Dakota field and build a 8,000-9,000 seat arena that could be used also a basketball arena for the bigger division 2 college basketball games. The Bison could have played in the CHA for a few years, that way there could have been a few match ups every year with UND and NDSU, what a draw on the ice. The WCHA could have looked in the future to NDSU being in the WCHA.

I think it would have been a great idea. They could still play hockey in the Fargo dome for a few years. It could have worked.

If NDSU had college hockey team they could have revoted on the Arena issue later in the future after seeing how sucessfull a Division one college hockey program could be. With proper marketing a vote on the arena funding could be successful. A missed opportunity.

[Riverman]

Ok we all heard the Gov of ND today. The Higher Ed Board is to take over the books for all the U's in ND.

This UND fan will be calling the Higher Ed board you can be sure.I along with others will remind them of the "Ralph deal" you build it you fund it.In the case of the other U in D1aa sports takes a bath in debt.(thank you Higher Ed Board for the trump card)

JD,I might be reading to much into what the Gov said today however he seems gung ho on waste.Which smaller U's do you think are to fade away? I say Minot maybe DL. I think the Higher Ed are to be the Headsman for the Gov.Make room on campus at UND and NDSU IMHO.

[The Sicatoka]

If I were a betting man on disappearing campuses it'd go like this:

Bottineau

Lake Region (at Devils Lake)

Mayville

Williston

Wahpeton or Bismarck (just one of the two two-years, the other'd survive)

Valley City

That would leave UND, NDSU, Minot, and Dickinson. There'd be privates (UMary, Jamestown College) in between.

[U2Bad1]

Bismarck's junior college has been growing quite a bit lately and they have a relatively new state of the art science building on campus. I doubt you will see it eliminated anytime soon.

[The Sicatoka]

Bismarck's junior college has been growing quite a bit lately ....

and Wahpeton (NDSCS) has been having budget and enrollment problems and sits an hour away from Fargo.

Add to that that BSC has been adding two-year programs that they don't have the classroom space for all the people who want to enroll and it looks better for them.

Both are trying to be the two-year tech school for the state. That's why I say one or the other because you need someone to fill that role, be it one or the other.

With UND and NDSU looking to grow, and Lake Region, Mayville, VC, and Wahpeton all within an hour-ish drive to them, maybe it's time to take a hard look at the issue.

It's been brought up before. It would kill some of those towns. There isn't an easy solution.

[U2Bad1]

Plus the simple fact NDSCS is in wahpeton.. sorry had to throw that in.

[JBB]

In Minnesota tech schools and community colleges were combined under one administration and then campuses from different cities were combined under one. That saved 3 layers of management. Ridgewater College in Willmar was combined with Willmar Tech and then combined with Hutchinson community college. Ridgewater College has campuses in Willmar and Hutchinson. It might work in ND.

[JBB]

The senario that helped move NDSU to D1 is starting to unfold. As reported in the Fargo Forum this morning heres the first move by D2 to further limit scholarships: