PhillySioux Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 http://www.insidecollegehockey.com/7Archiv...o/goto_0228.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoteauRinkRat Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 They obviously favor offensive defensemen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirtcoach Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 Having the lowest goals against in the WCHA must be due solely to our superior goaltenders. IF you are to believe INCH, the logical extension of their argument is that UND has the best goalies in college hockey. Or perhaps its our incredible two-way forwards covering for the absence of quality defensemen? Kudos to the forwards and goaltenders for giving the Sioux the top defense in the nation. If Green, Jones, Bina, Schnieder, and Smaby could just step it up a little, instead of being carried by Parise and Brandt, maybe we'd be ranked #-1 in the nation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 UND does NOT have a defenceman worthy of being named one of the best in the country...though they do work well together as a team. Not every vote, poll, or list is out to get the Sioux! take the blinders off squirtcoach! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagies Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 UND does NOT have a defenceman worthy of being named one of the best in the country...though they do work well together as a team. Not every vote, poll, or list is out to get the Sioux! take the blinders off squirtcoach! I'd buy your argument if any of their top picks didn't also include fairly high offensive numbers. The fact none of our guys even made the "on the radar" or "poised to move up" sections tells me that offensive numbers were a large factor in their process. Still, I'm not going to get my undies in a bunch over what INCH thinks. I enjoy reading their stuff even if I don't agree. I get to root for our guys. Wouldn't trade 'em. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirtcoach Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 Hey Basil, How's it going, eh. Did I say UND has the TOP defenseman in the country? (BTW, in the States down here, defenseman is spelled with an 's'). I asked them all to "step it up" (with tongue in cheek I might add). I ain't the one with a "Jones for Hobey" or "Schnieder for Hobey" or "Green for Hobey" signature. I haven't any blinders, just making light of INCH. The Sioux goaltending has been questioned all year by many and now INCH slights Sioux defensemen. And yet some how, some way, the team has the best team defense in the nation. (If you are to believe the stats ). I was just looking for a reason how that could be. Perhaps you could lend your opinion. Please don't take my pokes at INCH so personally. I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings in some way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCM Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 I'd buy your argument if any of their top picks didn't also include fairly high offensive numbers. I agree, dagies. There's a reason the position is called defenseman. The player's primary responsibility is defense, not offense. As a group, I wouldn't trade UND's defensive corps for any in the nation. And I wouldn't trade Jones and Greene for any pair in the country. David Hale never put up great offensive numbers and maybe never will. But that didn't mean that he wasn't one of the top defensemen in college hockey. Try telling that to the New Jersey Devils. Is it good to have an outstanding offensive defenseman or two on a team? You bet it is. Is it a necessity? As of right now, the Sioux are proving that it's not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jojordan23 Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 Pat, when you have forwards that play BOTH ways as well as ours do, you don't NEED an offensive d-man. That's why Schneider's point production is down from last year, since the Sioux no longer have one line that does everything, he doesn't need to score from the blue line. Goals/points by defensemen are just bonuses. , wouldn't you agree? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fighting Sioux Fan Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 Hmm, maybe this should be for the best offensive defenseman in the NCAA? It appears that points are what it is all about on this poll. Who cares what INCH thinks about who is the best defenseman in the league. When North DAkota wins the NCAA title, we will know which team has the best defense!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFSIOUX#1 Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 UND does NOT have a defenceman worthy of being named one of the best in the country...though they do work well together as a team. Not every vote, poll, or list is out to get the Sioux! take the blinders off squirtcoach! I am obviously biased towards the Sioux but it is a complete joke that none of the Sioux were even mentioned. I would argue that Green is the most intimadating defenseman in the nation. Jones arguably could be the most versatile. There is a reason why they allowed the fewest goals in the WCHA this year. Last time I checked that was the primary purpose of defenseman was to limit the scoring of the oppossing team. Fewest goals in the toughest league in the country is a great accomplishment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 It seems to be a popular arguement that UND has some great defencemen because they have allowed the least goals. Think about it, UND has the most talented forwards in the league. They control the puck better than most and have some intense backchecking forwards (Parise is great at this). The other team can't score or get good chances without the puck. So when you look at one stat (goals against) - it is shortsighted to automaticllyattribute that to the defencemen and goalies. As for the arguement that Greene is intimidating, I think any team should be glad he is on the ice as it is only a matter of time before he takes a foolish penalty. This is D1 hockey, a good player isn't intimidated by someone because they might get hit! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCM Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 Goals/points by defensemen are just bonuses. , wouldn't you agree? I do agree. Consider these stats for UND, a team tied for first with Maine and BC in the PairWise Rankings: Average goals scored per game = 4.6 (1st nationally) Average goals allowed per game = 2.2 (6th nationally) Top 20 Average Scoring Margin 1. North Dakota 2.4 2. Maine 1.83 3. Boston College 1.61 4. Minnesota-Duluth 1.46 5. Michigan 1.11 6. Bemidji State 1.00 7. Minnesota 0.97 8. Rensselaer 0.89 9. Colgate 0.88 10. Michigan State 0.87 11. Cornell 0.83 12. Brown 0.79 13. Wisconsin 0.79; Denver 0.79 15. New Hampshire 0.75 16. Colorado College 0.69 17. Mercyhurst 0.68 18. Miami 0.67 19. Holy Cross 0.59 20. Ohio State 0.58 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siouxnami Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 After seeing Greene play in the 2nd game against Duluth at the DECC. I believe that he is the best defensive D-man in the nation. I didn't think so at the start of the year but he just keeps improving (and certainly not last year). The effort and ice time in that game were outstanding. But INCH has no love for the defense... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCM Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 It seems to be a popular arguement that UND has some great defencemen because they have allowed the least goals. Think about it, UND has the most talented forwards in the league. They control the puck better than most and have some intense backchecking forwards (Parise is great at this). There's no question that the Sioux have played great team defense throughout the season, due in no small part to the forwards helping out. But to imply that they have a greater role in the team's success than those responsible for playing defense (i.e. goalies and defensemen) is sillly. Jones, Greene, Schneider and Smaby are all NHL draft picks. Apparently someone with hockey smarts thinks they are pretty good defensemen. As for the arguement that Greene is intimidating, I think any team should be glad he is on the ice as it is only a matter of time before he takes a foolish penalty. Huh? Have you been paying attention this season? Greene's number of penalties -- especially the undisciplined variety -- have dropped dropped dramatically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Enforcer Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 Ballard and Geisler are easily the top offensive defensemen in the WCHA. Stuart and Caldwell are the only other WCHAers on the list, so it's not like they listed the whole WCHA on there with the sole intention of leaving any Sioux off there. Let's face it, when outsiders think of the Sioux they think Bochenski and Parise, not Greene and Jones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCM Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 Ballard and Geisler are easily the top offensive defensemen in the WCHA. If the intention is to select the top offensive-defensemen, I have no problem with the INCH list. What I do have a problem with is the idea that a defenseman's offensive output is his more important than his ability to play defense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 If the intention is to select the top offensive-defensemen, I have no problem with the INCH list. What I do have a problem with is the idea that a defenseman's offensive output is his more important than his ability to play defense. Agreed, and this isn't an argument exclusive to college hockey, either. For years many NHL observers have lobbied for a second award to be handed out to the best defensive defenseman. Rod Langway was pretty much the last stay-at-home defenseman to win the Norris Trophy and many would like to see a defenseman's equivalent of the Selke Award (best defensive forward) established. Often times, offensive numbers skew people's perception of what truly consitutes a good all-around defenseman. Mike Crowley immediately pops to mind as one example. I don't think anyone here is knocking the defensemen on the INCH list. But any discussion about the NCAA's top d-men has to include Matt Jones. He just might be the most underrated player in college hockey. Are UND's defensemen without faults? Of course not. But it is arguably the best group at blocking shots and they have also become very adept at keeping the play to the perimeter. I also find it curious that INCH is always quick to make mention of UND's goaltending "problems" every chance it gets, and now snubs each one of our rearguards. Yet we are somehow still the top team in the country. Backchecking forwards like Parise and McMahon make a huge difference, but their efforts would be irrelevant if we had, say, Mankato's defensive corps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCM Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 Backchecking forwards like Parise and McMahon make a huge difference, but their efforts would be irrelevant if we had, say, Mankato's defensive corps. Or Mankato's goaltending. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 Yeah, their goaltending is pretty wretched too, but believe it or not, in that Saturday 10-1 game at Mankato, I don't think there was a single goal the goaltender could've truly been blamed on. As hard as it is to believe, each one of those 10 goals could've qualified as what I like to call big-time goals. Let's face it, Troy Jutting has a mess on his hands from top to bottom. It's situations like that that make me wanna puke when I hear Sioux fans hollering for the end of the world because UND happens to be on a 3-4-1 streak or fails to sweep a quality opponent. We are very, very spoiled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redwing77 Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 If the intention is to select the top offensive-defensemen, I have no problem with the INCH list. What I do have a problem with is the idea that a defenseman's offensive output is his more important than his ability to play defense. I agree completely! So Uof M people listen up! Since defensive ability isn't a requirement on INCH's defenseman of the year award, convert Vanek to a defenseman and you've got the award down solid! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DamStrait Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 It's INCH...who cares? If they need me to tell them that Matt Jones is one of the top 15 defensemen in the NCAA (I would put him solidly in the top 5), they have less credibility than even I would have thought them to have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petey23 Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 David Hale might have been the best player in college hockey last season! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skateshattrick Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 Ballard and Geisler are easily the top offensive defensemen in the WCHA. Stuart and Caldwell are the only other WCHAers on the list, so it's not like they listed the whole WCHA on there with the sole intention of leaving any Sioux off there. Let's face it, when outsiders think of the Sioux they think Bochenski and Parise, not Greene and Jones. Ballard and Geisler may be the top OFFENSIVE defenseman in the league, but are not the best defensemen. Again, I will quote David Hakstol who told me that Jones is the best 2 way defenseman in the WCHA. The reason he is underrated is because he does not score as much as Ballard, but he also does not needlessly gamble, and is better overall. Hakstol compared him to Paul Martin who never got as much attention until late last year and then jumped straight to the pros. Hakstol believes Jones is that good and will jump straight to the NHL like Paul Martin did. Jones can score, but that is not the role that the Sioux coaches want him to assume. If offensive skills were all that mattered, Brian Leetch and Paul Coffey would win the top defenseman award every year in the NHL rather than Rob Blake, Nick Lidstrom and Scott Stevens. Ask yourselves: would you rather have Scott Stevens or Brian Leetch? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 Brian Leetch...try a better argument. Stevens has never won a Norris Trophy - Blake and Lidstrom are consistently at the top of Defence scoring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCM Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 Ask yourselves: would you rather have Scott Stevens or Brian Leetch? Brian Leetch because I'm a Rangers fan. Seriously, I would rather have a defensive corps that could play defense well, move the puck and contribute some offense now and then. Hmm...sounds like a team I know. And because Doug Woog thinks offensive-defensemen are so important, I'll point out the following... UND's D-corps: 22 goals, 60 assists, 82 points. Minnesota's D-corp: 24 goals, 63 assists, 87 points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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