I'm pretty sure I don't know what I'm talking about here

[Fetch]

I have to add - I've always hated the interlocking ND logo it was Notre Dames - were the FIGHTING SIOUX & at least at the Ralph you can take it off the ice & their uniform, but it will always be FIGHTING SIOUX to the FANatics ........like me

[82SiouxGuy]

don't forget the NCAA

I still wonder if SR was really given total support or did they see weakness in Kelly & the SBOHE & anyone else (scapegoats) who deserves some of the blame

Now you're really reaching trying to find someone to hate. The Standing Rock Tribal Council has been opposed to the nickname for years. Everyone knows that they were the biggest obstacle to keeping it. It was an extreme longshot from the moment the settlement was signed. Yet now you think that the only reason that they didn't change their minds and support the nickname was because they saw weakness in Mr. Kelley and the SBoHE? The only way the Tribal Council was going to allow anything to change was if the tribe members themselves found a way to force it. That is what Mr. Fool Bear and his group were trying to do. First, the tribe doesn't have a good mechanism in place to do that. Second, the issue itself isn't important to enough members of the tribe for them to force a change. My guess is that they would have approved the use of the name if they had the opportunity. But they had no real strong reason to push the issue or force their elected officials to give them the opportunity. I'm pretty sure the tribal members themselves are more worried about the high rate of unemployment, finding a way to feed their families and stay warm through the winter, and dealing with other issues that are closer to them. Helping UND keep the nickname isn't going to be at the top of the list for most members of Standing Rock.

Blame the NCAA for stepping into an issue that should have been out of their jurisdiction. Blame the SR tribal council for not giving their citizens a chance to make their wishes known. Blame past administrations at UND for not doing more to develop a relationship with the tribes over the years. The SBoHE may even deserve some blame for how things were handled, although I think their hands were tied to some degree. But it is very tough to blame Mr. Faison or Mr. Kelley when they were hired after the settlement and after the die had been cast.

[siouxforeverbaby]

I would hope that absolutely NOBODY thinks the Summit League is more important than the Sioux name. I would be the first to say the opposite in fact. However, given the timing of everything (SR had PLENTY of time btw), it turned out that they could not get the support they needed per the settlement with the NCAA, in time to do what was in the best interest of the UND and the athletic dept. As much as it may seem otherwise to some, UND does have "other sports" besides hockey that they have to deal with.

The new SR tribal council chairman (Murphy) promised the UND administration, REA and a very loyal fanbase something that he could not deliver - a simple vote of the people. In fact, Charlie Murphy used that platform to win himself an election at SR. I'm not blaming it on Charlie Murphy, simply stating the facts.

I can guarantee you that if SR gets their $&*t together between now and when the name is scheduled to be retired, Kelly would definitely revisit and try to overturn the outcome to the SBOHE, given we received the outcome we need - a vote of support from SR's people for use of the name and logo for 30 years or more. Kelly and Faison would be committing suicide by not going back to the SBOHE to get it reversed if such an outcome occurred.

NOBODY wanted to see the name and logo go. NOBODY. Unfortunately without the support of the SR people, it was simply a matter of time thanks to the NCAA, who is really the entity behind of all of this crap that you should hate. Well them, The Summit League and Douple.

Two things. First, the SR tribal council had and still has time per the settlement, they have until November. The SBoHE is the one that pulled the rug early. Second, Kelley and Faison can go back to the SBoHE to try and get it reversed. But, the SBoHE does not have to revisit the issue if they do not see the need to, they are the bosses in this case.

[82SiouxGuy]

I thought they granted approval way back in 1969 via the sacred peace pipe cermony. Was that approval ever "officially" revoked? I could be mistaken, but I don't think it was.

The pipe ceremony was done by the elders, not the tribal council. The tribal council has voted against the nickname on more than 1 occasion. Whether the pipe ceremony trumps the tribal council is up to the reservation, and since the tribal council is in charge of the reservation they say it does not.

[82SiouxGuy]

Whether or not they have the right to revoke the approval granted by the elders sounds like a potential lawsuit to me.

Just remember that the reservation is a sovereign nation. That means the court system of the United States doesn't apply to what happens on the reservation. The court system on the reservation is modeled on the US court system, but it doesn't always work the same. Any legal challenge to the tribal council versus elders question would have to go through the tribal court system. The tribal council doesn't always follow what the tribal courts say, much like Congress passing laws that go around what the court system may say. In most cases I would bet on the tribal council winning.

[UNDvince97-01]

Two things. First, the SR tribal council had and still has time per the settlement, they have until November. The SBoHE is the one that pulled the rug early. Second, Kelley and Faison can go back to the SBoHE to try and get it reversed. But, the SBoHE does not have to revisit the issue if they do not see the need to, they are the bosses in this case.

Respectfully, isnt that pretty much what I said here?:

I can guarantee you that if SR gets their $&*t together between now and when the name is scheduled to be retired, Kelly would definitely revisit and try to overturn the outcome to the SBOHE, given we received the outcome we need - a vote of support from SR's people for use of the name and logo for 30 years or more. Kelly and Faison would be committing suicide by not going back to the SBOHE to get it reversed if such an outcome occurred.

Which is precisely why we arent officially retiring it until 2011.

[Blackburn87]

I have tried to accept the decision of the SBofHE and cannot and will not...

I have tried to understand the logic of the PC cabal and its like-minded ilk at the NCAA and I also cannot and will not...

Therefore, I have decided that I do not accept the leadership of any of these entities in my own personal view of the Sioux Name and its outcome.

It does not officially change anything, but I will call my team the Sioux no matter what anyone else calls them.

I hold out hope and support for the members of Standing Rock who have not simply accepted this outcome as "inevitable" and continue the good fight, and in my opinion, epitomize the Sioux name and legacy with pride.

I have decided to emulate them instead of the craven leadership I've seen from everyone else who unfortunately, have so far called the shots.

They no longer call the shots for me.

[Blackheart]

There is absolutely no need for your to explain yourself to some of the mouth breathers on this forum. You're never going to convince them anyway.

But it is still nice to read such well written posts from your side of the argument, the side of rational people and the side of the majority of UND alumni. It's too bad that in most internet message boards, it's the very few extermists that often have try to project themselves as being the majority when it's not true.

Yes, and the biggest mouth breather of all is somehow the voice of reason? Thanks d-bag

[Blackheart]

What I object to is Faison and Kelley not even advocating seriously for keeping the name. Had the top administrators been on board, would it have made a difference at SR? Maybe or maybe not. However, a lot more who are in support of the nickname, especially the natives who support it, would have at least seen that they care about the nickname and would not have felt completely disrespected. As it was/is, Faison and Kelley care more about placating the few vocal and incendiary nut jobs on campus.

Thank you...this is all most of us are looking for from our supposed leaders...instead they sit there like a bunch of pussies, too afraid to have any opinion at all...end of rant...

[Chewey]

I have tried to accept the decision of the SBofHE and cannot and will not...

I have tried to understand the logic of the PC cabal and its like-minded ilk at the NCAA and I also cannot and will not...

Therefore, I have decided that I do not accept the leadership of any of these entities in my own personal view of the Sioux Name and its outcome.

It does not officially change anything, but I will call my team the Sioux no matter what anyone else calls them.

I hold out hope and support for the members of Standing Rock who have not simply accepted this outcome as "inevitable" and continue the good fight, and in my opinion, epitomize the Sioux name and legacy with pride.

I have decided to emulate them instead of the craven leadership I've seen from everyone else who unfortunately, have so far called the shots.

They no longer call the shots for me.

Great post!

[UNDvince97-01]

I have decided to emulate them instead of the craven leadership I've seen from everyone else who unfortunately, have so far called the shots.

They no longer call the shots for me.

So it's about you then?

When I give money to the alma mater I have always loved and always will love, it was about giving back to the university that gave me so much. It wasnt about me or being able to call the shots. But, to each their own, I guess.

If your goal for DONATING money to UND was to be able to call the shots, then yes you have a reason to be upset and should stop donating to UND altogether.

[Blackburn87]

So it's about you then?

When I give money to the alma mater I have always loved and always will love, it was about giving back to the university that gave me so much. It wasnt about me or being able to call the shots. But, to each their own, I guess.

If your goal for DONATING money to UND was to be able to call the shots, then yes you have a reason to be upset and should stop donating to UND altogether.

I wasn't talking about donating money to UND (not sure how you got that from what I posted) but what I choose to call the team and what I choose to recognize. Granted, I have chosen to not donate money because I do not agree with the name issue or the way it was handled by any of the powers that be. That's my decision.

At 40, I no longer suffer fools gladly.

[yababy8]

I tend to pick my battles instead of tilting at windmills. I pick the battles that I believe are most important. And I pick battles that I at least have a chance of winning. I've battled unemployment when a 130 year old company I was working for went from record sales to bankruptcy and out of business in less than a year. I've helped friends and family battle disease, and battled my own injuries. I've worked to help save organizations that I felt are important. I supported the battle to keep the name for years, even after the settlement when I knew that the chances were slim. But after the Standing Rock election when it became apparent that they were going to continue to stand in the way, and they were the only body that could save the name, I realized that the end was near. If you want to keep going until the bitter end, go ahead. Just don't insult those of us that choose a different battle.

You completely missed my point.

I have no doubt that you have had many challenging battles that you have had to endure in your life. We all have. Take me for example, I too got lay-ed off after a ten year career at Boeing. I have been unemployed for 8 months. My wife had a major stroke three years ago at the age of 37. We have three children to look out for. I had to leave Grand Forks 15 years ago to be close to my five yr old son because my ex-wife manipulated the legal system there to be able to move with him without my consent. This is just a snap-shot.

I am not sharing this to compare battle wounds. I am just giving you a bit of my background so when I tell you that your struggles and how you have battled them are not not to be confused with credits toward civil participation or fighting against civil injustice, you will know I give this opinion with perspective. Further, I will add that the quantity of struggle people have in their personal lives might actually be increased as they, as a group, cease to stand up for civic injustice. ya know, if we let shitt happen to us, then we have more shitt happen to us.

So, I will say, again, what have you ever done in your life in the realm of social action? Ya know, like attend a march, write letters to elected officials, go door to door, create a cause blog, stand at the door of the gov with a picket sign??

People used to do this stuff in our country, people in other countries still do this stuff-some more than others. I ask you the question because I hear you and others say that they are tired of the name battle and we just need to be done with it. I just don't see anyone as having really done anything. Of course, I do not contend to know what everyone has done but I will say this;

We have something special here with our program and it's tradition. But we are not treating it as such, ie, with a respect for this, what it is, and not behaving in kind with a like "special attention" that is worthy of our program and its history and tradition in a time when our program needs us to be it's keeper.

To say this another way, we are letting the Sioux tradition down. But I guess we are just fans and by definition we just watch and wait for others to do or not to do, followed by some words of praise or blame that we all sprinkle into conversations like salt and pepper.

Also, I think it is short sighted to suggest that losing our name "will not" effect the future of Sioux tradition, notoriety and uniqueness. I think it very well might.

[82SiouxGuy]

You completely missed my point.

I have no doubt that you have had many challenging battles that you have had to endure in your life. We all have. Take me for example, I too got lay-ed off after a ten year career at Boeing. I have been unemployed for 8 months. My wife had a major stroke three years ago at the age of 37. We have three children to look out for. I had to leave Grand Forks 15 years ago to be close to my five yr old son because my ex-wife manipulated the legal system there to be able to move with him without my consent. This is just a snap-shot.

I am not sharing this to compare battle wounds. I am just giving you a bit of my background so when I tell you that your struggles and how you have battled them are not not to be confused with credits toward civil participation or fighting against civil injustice, you will know I give this opinion with perspective. Further, I will add that the quantity of struggle people have in their personal lives might actually be increased as they, as a group, cease to stand up for civic injustice. ya know, if we let shitt happen to us, then we have more shitt happen to us.

So, I will say, again, what have you ever done in your life in the realm of social action? Ya know, like attend a march, write letters to elected officials, go door to door, create a cause blog, stand at the door of the gov with a picket sign??

People used to do this stuff in our country, people in other countries still do this stuff-some more than others. I ask you the question because I hear you and others say that they are tired of the name battle and we just need to be done with it. I just don't see anyone as having really done anything. Of course, I do not contend to know what everyone has done but I will say this;

We have something special here with our program and it's tradition. But we are not treating it as such, ie, with a respect for this, what it is, and not behaving in kind with a like "special attention" that is worthy of our program and its history and tradition in a time when our program needs us to be it's keeper.

To say this another way, we are letting the Sioux tradition down. But I guess we are just fans and by definition we just watch and wait for others to do or not to do, followed by some words of praise or blame that we all sprinkle into conversations like salt and pepper.

Also, I think it is short sighted to suggest that losing our name "will not" effect the future of Sioux tradition, notoriety and uniqueness. I think it very well might.

I agree that most of us face challenges in our personal lives. Many people have faced bigger challenges than I have. That was actually part of my point. Those challenges are usually much more important than fighting for a sports nickname.

What have I done in the realm of social action? Does running for office count? You know, putting my neck on the line to try and make a difference? I lost, but will probably try again. How about working on the campaigns for others? Talking to elected officials about issues on a regular basis (not writing letters but actually speaking with them)? Serving on the boards of multiple non-profit organizations? Helping raise money for a variety of causes? Working with youth (not my own kids since I don't have any) to teach them about values, leadership and a variety of life skills? I kind of think they do, and those are some of the things I've done and continue to do on a regular basis.

There are 2 main reasons why I am ready to move on if a miracle doesn't happen to save the Fighting Sioux nickname and logo. First, there are much more important issues in this country than a college sports nickname. I don't care if it is the best, most unique nickname ever created. Losing that nickname is nothing compared to people losing their lives, losing jobs, losing children, natural disasters, and a huge list of other issues. I think it is a great nickname and logo. But I believe that my time and efforts are better spent making a difference in my community. I think I've done my small part to do that and I plan to continue trying to make Grand Forks and North Dakota better places to live. If you want to spend your time writing blogs about how a nickname should be kept, go ahead. Just don't put me down because I'm doing something else that I think is more important.

The second reason is that the chances of keeping the nickname are very slim. You may not acknowledge it, but the November 30th deadline is very real. It is part of a legal written agreement between the SBoHE and the NCAA. That agreement has now placed all of the power in the hands of a very few people, the tribal council at Standing Rock. It really doesn't matter what anyone else thinks, says or does. The tribal council holds all of the cards. And they aren't interested in dealing any to UND or the SBoHE. The tribal council has had almost 33 months to do something and they haven't moved an inch. I really don't expect them to unless someone can find some lever that will force them to move. Many people predicted that at the time of the settlement. A lot of things would have to happen in a very short period of time to be able to keep the name, and nothing happens until the tribal council lets it happen. I've had almost 3 years to prepare myself in case this happens and I have.

Your ideas about civil rebellion can be a good thing, but you are coming late to the party. This issue has been part of the landscape since the 1960's. The current predicament has been building since the NCAA made their proclamation almost exactly 5 years ago. Trying to rally support and to build a relationship should have been done 3 years ago, or 5 years ago, or 20 years ago. Not 3 months before the deadline. And some people did try. They weren't successful, at least in part because the powers that be at the time didn't take the time or make the effort to get those things done. They didn't see a day when UND's hand would be forced by an outside agency. They were wrong. If you had started promoting your social action themes 3 years ago, or 5 years ago you would have had a better chance of success. You would have gotten more people involved and probably would have had a better response from a much larger segment of the population. But you're late. And we don't know if it would have made a difference then or not. The Standing Rock tribal council doesn't care about your social action. The only people they really answer to are their constituents, the members of the Standing Rock reservation. Those people have much bigger issues to deal with than UND's nickname. Unemployment is sky high. They have major issues with their schools, and alcohol and many other things. The majority probably don't have a problem with the nickname, but they aren't going way out on a limb for that issue. And if the tribal members don't care enough to make it an issue, the tribal council isn't going to be forced to change their mind.

And I believe that a change in nickname won't have a major negative effect because I believe in the strength of the University of North Dakota. I believe that the people are what make it special, not a name on the chest or the scoreboard. After all, "We are North Dakota". The only way those people are going anywhere is if they choose to go away. I believe that the vast majority will remain a part of the UND family, and that will keep alive the Fighting Sioux tradition and heritage even if it lives under a different name.

[Fetch]

[Chewey]

I agree that most of us face challenges in our personal lives. Many people have faced bigger challenges than I have. That was actually part of my point. Those challenges are usually much more important than fighting for a sports nickname.

What have I done in the realm of social action? Does running for office count? You know, putting my neck on the line to try and make a difference? I lost, but will probably try again. How about working on the campaigns for others? Talking to elected officials about issues on a regular basis (not writing letters but actually speaking with them)? Serving on the boards of multiple non-profit organizations? Helping raise money for a variety of causes? Working with youth (not my own kids since I don't have any) to teach them about values, leadership and a variety of life skills? I kind of think they do, and those are some of the things I've done and continue to do on a regular basis.

There are 2 main reasons why I am ready to move on if a miracle doesn't happen to save the Fighting Sioux nickname and logo. First, there are much more important issues in this country than a college sports nickname. I don't care if it is the best, most unique nickname ever created. Losing that nickname is nothing compared to people losing their lives, losing jobs, losing children, natural disasters, and a huge list of other issues. I think it is a great nickname and logo. But I believe that my time and efforts are better spent making a difference in my community. I think I've done my small part to do that and I plan to continue trying to make Grand Forks and North Dakota better places to live. If you want to spend your time writing blogs about how a nickname should be kept, go ahead. Just don't put me down because I'm doing something else that I think is more important.

The second reason is that the chances of keeping the nickname are very slim. You may not acknowledge it, but the November 30th deadline is very real. It is part of a legal written agreement between the SBoHE and the NCAA. That agreement has now placed all of the power in the hands of a very few people, the tribal council at Standing Rock. It really doesn't matter what anyone else thinks, says or does. The tribal council holds all of the cards. And they aren't interested in dealing any to UND or the SBoHE. The tribal council has had almost 33 months to do something and they haven't moved an inch. I really don't expect them to unless someone can find some lever that will force them to move. Many people predicted that at the time of the settlement. A lot of things would have to happen in a very short period of time to be able to keep the name, and nothing happens until the tribal council lets it happen. I've had almost 3 years to prepare myself in case this happens and I have.

Your ideas about civil rebellion can be a good thing, but you are coming late to the party. This issue has been part of the landscape since the 1960's. The current predicament has been building since the NCAA made their proclamation almost exactly 5 years ago. Trying to rally support and to build a relationship should have been done 3 years ago, or 5 years ago, or 20 years ago. Not 3 months before the deadline. And some people did try. They weren't successful, at least in part because the powers that be at the time didn't take the time or make the effort to get those things done. They didn't see a day when UND's hand would be forced by an outside agency. They were wrong. If you had started promoting your social action themes 3 years ago, or 5 years ago you would have had a better chance of success. You would have gotten more people involved and probably would have had a better response from a much larger segment of the population. But you're late. And we don't know if it would have made a difference then or not. The Standing Rock tribal council doesn't care about your social action. The only people they really answer to are their constituents, the members of the Standing Rock reservation. Those people have much bigger issues to deal with than UND's nickname. Unemployment is sky high. They have major issues with their schools, and alcohol and many other things. The majority probably don't have a problem with the nickname, but they aren't going way out on a limb for that issue. And if the tribal members don't care enough to make it an issue, the tribal council isn't going to be forced to change their mind.

And I believe that a change in nickname won't have a major negative effect because I believe in the strength of the University of North Dakota. I believe that the people are what make it special, not a name on the chest or the scoreboard. After all, "We are North Dakota". The only way those people are going anywhere is if they choose to go away. I believe that the vast majority will remain a part of the UND family, and that will keep alive the Fighting Sioux tradition and heritage even if it lives under a different name.

There are 2 main reasons why I am ready to move on if a miracle doesn't happen to save the Fighting Sioux nickname and logo. First, there are much more important issues in this country than a college sports nickname. I don't care if it is the best, most unique nickname ever created. Losing that nickname is nothing compared to people losing their lives, losing jobs, losing children, natural disasters, and a huge list of other issues. I think it is a great nickname and logo. But I believe that my time and efforts are better spent making a difference in my community. I think I've done my small part to do that and I plan to continue trying to make Grand Forks and North Dakota better places to live. If you want to spend your time writing blogs about how a nickname should be kept, go ahead. Just don't put me down because I'm doing something else that I think is more important.

Hmmm. Perhaps, and I don't mean this sarcastically, one of your social action causes should be to attempt to explain all of this to the creative-impaired busy-bodies who made a simple college sports team nickname into an issue in the first place. I think you're being a bit of a Pollyanna and that is no insult, mind you. Sure, the university and even the sports teams will live on and nothing will be killed outright but, with much of 80 or so years worth of tradition ripped out, they will live on with half a heart and half a lung. The various Captains Ahab and the rest of the Pequod have pursued their white whale now since the 60's and it is only a natural consequence of things that there will be fallout. Of course, there are more things important than a sports team nickname. However, it's that inscrutable weirdness that got the nickname to be an "issue" in the first place and the blithe acquiescence to that weirdness which only reinforces and sustains it that are the issues of concern. So, all of this is a much larger issue than just a sports team nickname. This weirdness and conceit, as is manifested at UND by various peoples' fixation about a "racist" sports team nickname, is the same thing that causes a day to day change in vernacular or a monthly change in Webster's Dictionary or a minute to minute change in reading materials so as not to offend certain affected groups' genteel sensibilities.

[Fetch]