Butler going to MBB national title game

[MplsBison]

For all the UND hockey fans trying their hardest to deny UND basketball's DI potential ("UND basketball never has a chance to win a national title like hockey does!!!!!11"), look no farther than Butler's program which is going to the title game.

UND athletic program is already on par, at least, with Butler's program overall in terms of quality, facilities, etc. As far as being specific to the bball program, obviously Butler has better players and probably has a bigger budget (I'd be curious to know what Butler's head men's bball coach makes), but I don't see why UND could get to that level.

[LeftyZL]

For all the UND hockey fans trying their hardest to deny UND basketball's DI potential ("UND basketball never has a chance to win a national title like hockey does!!!!!11"), look no farther than Butler's program which is going to the title game.

UND athletic program is already on par, at least, with Butler's program overall in terms of quality, facilities, etc. As far as being specific to the bball program, obviously Butler has better players and probably has a bigger budget (I'd be curious to know what Butler's head men's bball coach makes), but I don't see why UND could get to that level.

Probably have a bigger budget? Way to go out on a limb there. That's like saying UND's hockey budget is probably RIT's hockey budget.

Not to mention they play in the Horizon league is the top rated mid-major conference(12th overall out 33 conferences). They are in a major-metro market and have been a dominant, repeat dominant, mid-major team for years.

Butler's basketball program feeds their athletic budget the same way UND's hockey program feeds ours.

[bincitysioux]

MPLSbison--

I hate to say it but, you are naive to think that UND could accomplish what Butler has. Butler has a proud heritage of basketball, non-scholarship football, no hockey...........they pour virtually all their resources into MBB. IMO you can't compare the two, it's apples to oranges. Do I think eventually down the road that UND can make the tourney, win a game or maybe two, get to the Sweet 16? The answer is yes, eventually. Same goes for NDSU, USD, SDSU, etc. UND and the rest of the Dakota schools are low-majors, always will be. Butler is a bonafide mid-major that plays in a bonafide mid-major conference, that competetively recruits directly against the high major, BCS football-playing conferences. There are only a few that can do that.........the MVC, the WCC, the Horizon. I get your "feel-good" vibe though.........it is pretty exciting to see a team in the NCAA championship that doesn't come from one of conferences that is a member of BCS football.

DaveK--

Having said what I just said to MPLS, you really need to get over your hate for "bouncey-ball" as you like to refer to it. WHEN UND makes the tournament it will be just as big a story to Sioux fans as when UND makes the Frozen Four. WHEN UND wins just one NCAA basketball game, it will be just as big a story to Sioux fans as when UND WINS the Frozen Four. Of course one tourney win will not dwarf our past titles in hockey, but WHEN it happens it will be big. Were you not around in the early the 90's when you couldn't get into a UND basketball game? We all love UND hockey and recognize that it is the dominant sport in the region, but we're used dominance in that arena. If we win a tournament game, not just make the field, but win just one NCAA basketball tournament game, we'll all probably talk about it for years, like the '97 Flood.

Just my 2 cents........

[FargoBison]

Wow, I don't even know what to say after reading this thread....

[soohockey15]

It's really not the game that I hate so much as it is the mere fact that American sports media gives it 100 times more attention than it gives hockey. And, no, the Sioux getting to the NCAA basketball tournament will not create as much of a buzz among Sioux fans as our hockey team getting to the Frozen Four. We'll be happy for the basketball team, but the hockey team will still be our primary rooting interest. Of course there will be a few exceptions but I'm speaking for the vast majority of people who support UND athletics. Put it this way... if you were to ask Sioux fans would they rather have the 1st NCAA basketball championship or the 8th NCAA hockey championship, how do you think the percentage of answers would come out? Not smack, honest question. Please give me an honest answer.

I would hope every Sioux fan would hope for the basketball championship. That would do so much more for the school and state than any number of hockey titles could.

[82SiouxGuy]

It's really not the game that I hate so much as it is the mere fact that American sports media gives it 100 times more attention than it gives hockey. And, no, the Sioux getting to the NCAA basketball tournament will not create as much of a buzz among Sioux fans as our hockey team getting to the Frozen Four. We'll be happy for the basketball team, but the hockey team will still be our primary rooting interest. Of course there will be a few exceptions but I'm speaking for the vast majority of people who support UND athletics. Put it this way... if you were to ask Sioux fans would they rather have the 1st NCAA basketball championship or the 8th NCAA hockey championship, how do you think the percentage of answers would come out? Not smack, honest question. Please give me an honest answer.

If you are talking a Division I basketball title, then I think a majority of Sioux fans would take that over an 8th title in hockey. The media gives basketball more attention than hockey because a lot more people care about basketball than hockey. They give the people what they want because that's how they pay the bills. So winning in basketball is a much bigger deal than winning in hockey. And that's coming from someone who rarely watches basketball of any kind, and only really pays attention to UND basketball.

[soohockey15]

Even if the Sioux basketball team were to someday accomplish what Butler has just done, it would not create the same kind of interest within the UND fanbase that our hockey team creates. The hockey-hating national media would give us more attention, I get that. But within our own fanbase hockey always has been and always will be #1. Why is that so hard for you to accept?

Sometimes I wonder if you're even a real person. 'Hockey-hating' national media? Hockey gets less attention in the national media because it has a much smaller fanbase than basketball.

[MplsBison]

Even if the Sioux basketball team were to someday accomplish what Butler has just done, it would not create the same kind of interest within the UND fanbase that our hockey team creates. The hockey-hating national media would give us more attention, I get that. But within our own fanbase hockey always has been and always will be #1. Why is that so hard for you to accept?

Because it's a lie, parroted by yourself and the Goons and CIAs of the ss.com world who have this fantasy where hockey is a popular sport in the US and world.

Not only would the national media attention on UND be many times greater than anything UND hockey has ever gained, but interest from UND alumni across the country would also be many times great than anythign UND has ever gotten!

That's the truth and you hate it.

Hockey, as a collegiate sport, has a very painfully obvious ceiling for the amount of interest it can bring UND. Basketball has no such ceiling, the potential is limitless in comparison.

[MplsBison]

Probably have a bigger budget? Way to go out on a limb there. That's like saying UND's hockey budget is probably RIT's hockey budget.

Not to mention they play in the Horizon league is the top rated mid-major conference(12th overall out 33 conferences). They are in a major-metro market and have been a dominant, repeat dominant, mid-major team for years.

Butler's basketball program feeds their athletic budget the same way UND's hockey program feeds ours.

Horizon is a half step above the Summit and a full step below conferences like the A10, CAA, Missouri Valley, WCC ,etc.

[MplsBison]

MPLSbison--

I hate to say it but, you are naive to think that UND could accomplish what Butler has. Butler has a proud heritage of basketball, non-scholarship football, no hockey...........they pour virtually all their resources into MBB. IMO you can't compare the two, it's apples to oranges. Do I think eventually down the road that UND can make the tourney, win a game or maybe two, get to the Sweet 16? The answer is yes, eventually. Same goes for NDSU, USD, SDSU, etc. UND and the rest of the Dakota schools are low-majors, always will be. Butler is a bonafide mid-major that plays in a bonafide mid-major conference, that competetively recruits directly against the high major, BCS football-playing conferences. There are only a few that can do that.........the MVC, the WCC, the Horizon. I get your "feel-good" vibe though.........it is pretty exciting to see a team in the NCAA championship that doesn't come from one of conferences that is a member of BCS football.

DaveK--

Having said what I just said to MPLS, you really need to get over your hate for "bouncey-ball" as you like to refer to it. WHEN UND makes the tournament it will be just as big a story to Sioux fans as when UND makes the Frozen Four. WHEN UND wins just one NCAA basketball game, it will be just as big a story to Sioux fans as when UND WINS the Frozen Four. Of course one tourney win will not dwarf our past titles in hockey, but WHEN it happens it will be big. Were you not around in the early the 90's when you couldn't get into a UND basketball game? We all love UND hockey and recognize that it is the dominant sport in the region, but we're used dominance in that arena. If we win a tournament game, not just make the field, but win just one NCAA basketball tournament game, we'll all probably talk about it for years, like the '97 Flood.

Just my 2 cents........

You can't compare the situations, I agree. But it really all just comes down to money. According to the OPE, Butler's mbb team had $1.7 of expenses in the 2008-09 year. In that same year NDSU had almost $1 million expenses and UND had almost $900 thousand. For another datapoint, U of Minn had expenses of around $5.1 million!!!

So don't try to feed us this line that UND couldn't get to what Butler is doing now. Same situation, no. But UND can get to a MBB budget the size of Butler. Then, all it takes is recruiting the right kids, with a young, talented coach, and some luck. UND could be in the mBB national championship game. So could NDSU. So could any of the Summit schools! The horizon is not a high mid-major, they're maybe a half step above the Summit and a full step below the big mid-major conferences.

[bincitysioux]

The horizon is not a high mid-major, they're maybe a half step above the Summit and a full step below the big mid-major conferences.

[Hammersmith]

So I'm not the only one who thought that? Makes me feel better.

Horizon = better than average mid-major conference

Summit = one of the best low-major conferences

There's a pretty big gap between the two(and one I don't think the Summit will ever be able to completely close). I think the very best-case scenario for the Summit is to be an average mid-major. Somewhere in the neighborhood of the WCC, MAC or Sun Belt. Remember I said very best case, so don't jump on me for being unrealistic.

[soohockey15]

Does it get less media attention because it has a smaller fanbase... or does it have a smaller fanbase because it gets less media attention?

In all seriousness, it is really a combination of both.

Uh, no. The reason the NHL doesn't have a tv deal is because it simply isn't worth it for networks, hence the reason it gets less media attention. Not difficult to understand.

[fightingsioux4life]

Uh, no. The reason the NHL doesn't have a tv deal is because it simply isn't worth it for networks, hence the reason it gets less media attention. Not difficult to understand.

I'm not so sure it's that simple. This is one of those chicken and egg questions; which one comes first and nobody can really come up with a 100% bone fide answer.

Think about it like this: The media hypes the NBA to the point where you can't ignore it. But the on-court product is absolute garbage. I've tried watching NBA basketball when I wasn't busy watching something else and I had to turn the channel after 10 to 15 minutes because it sucked so bad. The skills of these "professionals" are so bad compared to the players of the 1980's and 90's that the only thing that keeps that league relevant is that ESPN (which should rename SportsCenter "The NBA Tonight" during the basketball season) and the rest of the sports media hypes the league as the greatest thing since sliced bread. The fact that so many francises are in financial trouble (according to numerous media reports I have heard this season) is proof that the national sports fanbase is onto the fact that the product the NBA puts out is not worth spending their hard-earned money on.

I am kind of glad that hockey (both college and the NHL) doesn't get hyped like this. It would lead to a trivialization of the sport in general and bring in a whole bunch of novice, no-nothing fans into the equation. I for one like the fact that hockey has a smaller, hard-core group of fans that know the game and follow their team with passion. I would like to have some better viewing options for the hockey fan (especially during NCAA tournament time), but the game is in good shape right now and I don't think getting the ESPN hype machine involved would make it better.

[MplsBison]

So I'm not the only one who thought that? Makes me feel better.

Horizon = better than average mid-major conference

Summit = one of the best low-major conferences

There's a pretty big gap between the two(and one I don't think the Summit will ever be able to completely close). I think the very best-case scenario for the Summit is to be an average mid-major. Somewhere in the neighborhood of the WCC, MAC or Sun Belt. Remember I said very best case, so don't jump on me for being unrealistic.

Take away Butler and the Horizon is no better than the Summit once all of the Dakota flagships are in.

[The Sicatoka]

Butler has a proud heritage of basketball, non-scholarship football, no hockey...........they pour virtually all their resources into MBB.

There, folks, is the key. They're a one-trick pony.

As much as Butler's Cinderella run is making media noise and wonderful copy, it's also quietly being "noticed" by schools that have athletic department budgets larger than the total annual operations costs of Butler. I'll be interested to see how they respond to it going forward. I expect a new round of interesting sport sponsorship and funding rules to show up at the next NCAA convention (sponsored by the big conferences).

[bincitysioux]

Take away Butler and the Horizon is no better than the Summit once all of the Dakota flagships are in.

Most years Butler, Wright St., UW-Green Bay, and UW-Milwaukee would have their way with the entire Summit Leauge. Valparaiso had their way with Summit for better than a decade...........now they're a middle of the pack Horizon league team. If Valpo were still in the Summit, they'd likely be the favorite every year. Look at the Strength of Schedules for the teams of each conference, it is not even close.

[soohockey15]

Think about it like this: The media hypes the NBA to the point where you can't ignore it. But the on-court product is absolute garbage. I've tried watching NBA basketball when I wasn't busy watching something else and I had to turn the channel after 10 to 15 minutes because it sucked so bad. The skills of these "professionals" are so bad compared to the players of the 1980's and 90's that the only thing that keeps that league relevant is that ESPN (which should rename SportsCenter "The NBA Tonight" during the basketball season) and the rest of the sports media hypes the league as the greatest thing since sliced bread. The fact that so many francises are in financial trouble (according to numerous media reports I have heard this season) is proof that the national sports fanbase is onto the fact that the product the NBA puts out is not worth spending their hard-earned money on.

I couldn't disagree with you more about the product of the league. In the late 90s and early 2000s it was awful, too many high schoolers and not a ton of big names. But now the NBA (and NHL) has had a huge influx of young, talented, and likeable players. LeBron, Dwayne Wade, Kevin Durant, Chris Paul, Dwight Howard, Brandon Roy the list goes on and on. The NBA also has the best commissioner in sports, David Stern. And much like hockey, the NBA is far more entertaining to watch during the playoffs than any other time of the year. I would say the number of NBA franchises and NHL franchises in financial trouble is about the same, and its probably due to the same reason (economy).

I enjoy watching the NHL as well, but its much tougher to sell the product because 1.) the sport isn't as popular in some regions of the country and 2.) its much more difficult to market players. I don't mean to say the NHL doesn't have anyone they can sell, but its tougher because they play a sport where the best players are on the ice for about 20 minutes a game, their faces are obstructed by helmets, and the game is being played in a glass enclosure. I think the commissioner has tried too hard to expand the sport in non traditional places too fast (where its subsequently flopped), and he doesn't seem to have a plan for the league in the near future (he'll need to address Phoenix and Atlanta, for starters). I hope the NHL can score a TV deal with ESPN, and I hope the league becomes more popular in the near future. I think the NHL is a blast to watch, but I don't think Bettman is the guy to lead the league into prosperity. Hopefully they can bring in somebody who has a clear direction for the league.

[MplsBison]

Most years Butler, Wright St., UW-Green Bay, and UW-Milwaukee would have their way with the entire Summit Leauge. Valparaiso had their way with Summit for better than a decade...........now they're a middle of the pack Horizon league team. If Valpo were still in the Summit, they'd likely be the favorite every year. Look at the Strength of Schedules for the teams of each conference, it is not even close.

I don't buy it.

Give the Summit + Dakota flagships a few years to mature, then we'll see who's having their way with who.

[MplsBison]

There, folks, is the key. They're a one-trick pony.

As much as Butler's Cinderella run is making media noise and wonderful copy, it's also quietly being "noticed" by schools that have athletic department budgets larger than the total annual operations costs of Butler. I'll be interested to see how they respond to it going forward. I expect a new round of interesting sport sponsorship and funding rules to show up at the next NCAA convention (sponsored by the big conferences).

Not so fast, re: sport sponsorship requirements. Take a look at U of Texas, as an example. Not exactly Harvard when it comes to the number of sports being sponsored.

I'd be more interested in less sports sponsored but at a higher level of funding and average attendance, to be DI. As I already pointed out, Butler only spent $1.7 million in 2008-09 on MBB, not much more than NDSU and UND comparatively when you consider that the U of Minn spent over $5 million!

[The Sicatoka]

... the U of Minn spent over $5 million!

Tutors to take tests for you aren't cheap. No, wait, that was Haskins, not Tubby.

[The Sicatoka]

I'd be more interested in less sports sponsored but at a higher level of funding and average attendance, to be DI.

Gee, that sounds a little like the "cafeteria plan" some crazy guy offered up a while back, a plan where you picked the sport and the funding level you chose to compete at on a sport-by-sport, and not total department, basis, with no minumum number of sports having to be offered. Who was that crazy guy again?

[MplsBison]

Gee, that sounds a little like the "cafeteria plan" some crazy guy offered up a while back, a plan where you picked the sport and the funding level you chose to compete at on a sport-by-sport, and not total department, basis, with no minumum number of sports having to be offered. Who was that crazy guy again?

That was probably too far on the opposite extreme. But I certainly don't agree that to have DI bball, football, hockey, baseball that you should have to have DI soccer, track, tennis, swimming, etc. just to be allowed in the division.

[MplsBison]

Interesting post on Butler's potential windfall for their run in the MBB tournament.

Would UND get anything near that for winning the men's hockey national championship?

http://anygivensaturday.com/showpost.php?p...mp;postcount=22

[Hammersmith]

Interesting post on Butler's potential windfall for their run in the MBB tournament.

Would UND get anything near that for winning the men's hockey national championship?

http://anygivensaturday.com/showpost.php?p...mp;postcount=22

The guy's numbers in the quoted text are way off. Using the current share number($222,206/share), Butler earned the Horizon just under $900,000 next year, with that number increasing slightly each of the next six years. Butler got into the tourney on the Horizon's autobid, which means you can't really count the first share as something Butler won for the conference. Butler did earn one share for each of their victories until the Final Four. The Michigan State win didn't count for a share. That means Butler earned 4 shares for the Horizon. If the Horizon does award 25% to the school bringing in the share, then Butler will get either around $225k or $275k next year depending on whether the Horizon counts the initial share. Over six years, Butler should get between $1.5M to $2.0M, depending on the initial share and how quickly the share value increases.