princeton offense

[gfhockey]

Currently is 20-8 UMKC and the sioux players look frustraded. this princeton offense sucks.

[sioux2013]

Agree the offense needs changes. 41 points will not win any D1 basketball games. What are they averaging per game. Not even close to 60.

[coach daddy]

Agree the offense needs changes. 41 points will not win any D1 basketball games. What are they averaging per game. Not even close to 60.

Is it the offense or the guys running it? Bledsoe will be good for 14-17 a game so things will improve when he's back. There isn't great talent on this team folks. May not ever be.

[Oxbow6]

The Princeton offense ws designed for 2 reasons: 1) To try to help cover up the lack of athleticism and talent of a team 2) while trying to shorten the possesions of the other team in essence trying to keep the game close with the deliberate style of play.

This team is really talent poor for D1 and subsequently the system being run is trying to compensate for that.

[RD17]

Is the consensus that the team is that deficient from a talent standpoint or is it more of a case of the team being young? I thought many people were very high on the current group of redshirt freshmen but are they not as good as advertised?

[UND92,96]

Question:

Is this program in any better shape right now, at least in terms of on-the-court performance, than during the latter stages of the Rich Glas era?

[Oxbow6]

Question:

Is this program in any better shape right now, at least in terms of on-the-court performance, than during the latter stages of the Rich Glas era?

When I was in school during the late 80's-90's, there was plenty of lower tier D1 talent...i.e. Gulseth, Vonesh, ect...

This team/program is nowhere near the talent level back in that Glas era.

[UND92,96]

When I was in school during the late 80's-90's, there was plenty of lower tier D1 talent...i.e. Gulseth, Vonesh, ect...

This team/program is nowhere near the talent level back in that Glas era.

There's no question that the present team doesn't hold a candle to the early 1990's teams. But have we seen any improvement compared to the Rich Glas teams of the early-to-mid 2000's which struggled so badly against DAC teams? Granted, we're not playing many of those teams anymore, but I just don't see that the talent level has gotten any better, and obviously the team isn't grasping the Princeton offense. Throw in a zone defense which is allowing opponents to shoot 42% from 3-point range (and even Bemidji State torched us in an exhibition game from behind the arc), and it makes a person wonder exactly what is going on.

[Oxbow6]

There's no question that the present team doesn't hold a candle to the early 1990's teams. But have we seen any improvement compared to the Rich Glas teams of the early-to-mid 2000's which struggled so badly against DAC teams? Granted, we're not playing many of those teams anymore, but I just don't see that the talent level has gotten any better, and obviously the team isn't grasping the Princeton offense. Throw in a zone defense which is allowing opponents to shoot 42% from 3-point range (and even Bemidji State torched us in an exhibition game from behind the arc), and it makes a person wonder exactly what is going on.

Was going to get to your original question...NO! These recent UND teams are on par with the late era Glas teams. Definitely not any better.

FIRE HAKSTOL!! Oops...wrong thread.

[star2city]

The Princeton offense ws designed for 2 reasons: 1) To try to help cover up the lack of athleticism and talent of a team 2) while trying to shorten the possesions of the other team in essence trying to keep the game close with the deliberate style of play.

This team is really talent poor for D1 and subsequently the system being run is trying to compensate for that.

Saw the UNC-UND game Saturday. The Princeton offense is about passing: what was displayed on the floor was dribbling, not crisp passing.

The only player consistently showing assertiveness on the offense was Mertens: almost everyone else seems tentative and and has lost or lacks confidence at this level.

Maybe Bledsoe's outside shooting will open up the defenses, but what about next year? The guards that were signed this past month are the highest rated athletes yet in Jones' era: but it's likely two years before they see the playing time.

It's clear they are all hard workers, but the chemistry just isn't there, yet.

Been preaching patience for the next couple of years, but unless some of the current players really step up, it could be 5-6 years before a competitive mid-major team is on the court. Hope I'm surprised. Unfortunately, with the injury and talent condition for the women, it may be five-six years for that squad too.

[UND92,96]

If Northern Colorado can go from being 4-24 in the 2006-07 season, to 6-0 and apparently a more than respectable mid-major team in 2009-10, there's no reason something similar can't happen here in the next few years. But I'm growing impatient. The UNC coach was hired at the same time as Jones, and even though they were dI when he was hired, and UND was dII when Jones was hired, the UNC situation was still at least arguably worse than the one Jones took over.

[82SiouxGuy]

If Northern Colorado can go from being 4-24 in the 2006-07 season, to 6-0 and apparently a more than respectable mid-major team in 2009-10, there's no reason something similar can't happen here in the next few years. But I'm growing impatient. The UNC coach was hired at the same time as Jones, and even though they were dI when he was hired, and UND was dII when Jones was hired, the UNC situation was still at least arguably worse than the one Jones took over.

I would think that it would be much harder to recruit for a transition team in basketball than in many other sports. The lure of "The Big Dance" is huge in basketball. Players want to have at least a chance to play on national (or at least regional) television. Having absolutely no chance to make the tournament would make for a tough sell. And not even having a chance for a real league title doesn't help. The Great West helps a little, but it isn't a long term or established league. Sometimes you can get lucky and pick up a player that really likes the school, or one that other schools overlook. But it probably isn't going to be fair to judge Jones for another 2 or 3 years at a minimum.

[star2city]

I would think that it would be much harder to recruit for a transition team in basketball than in many other sports. The lure of "The Big Dance" is huge in basketball. Players want to have at least a chance to play on national (or at least regional) television. Having absolutely no chance to make the tournament would make for a tough sell. And not even having a chance for a real league title doesn't help. The Great West helps a little, but it isn't a long term or established league. Sometimes you can get lucky and pick up a player that really likes the school, or one that other schools overlook. But it probably isn't going to be fair to judge Jones for another 2 or 3 years at a minimum.

Agree. The situation with NDSU and Miles' recruiting was almostly obscenely improbable: I think a lot of people were hoping UND could somehow miraculously duplicate that feat. Even NDSU now is finding that staying within the top 100 of DI within the Summit League is extremely difficult: they'll only be a shadow of their 2008-9 team for years. SDSU is only now finding legs in its program. Also, UNC had the benefit of using the Big Sky as a recruiting tool two years before SDSU had the Summit League.

[UND92,96]

I would think that it would be much harder to recruit for a transition team in basketball than in many other sports. The lure of "The Big Dance" is huge in basketball. Players want to have at least a chance to play on national (or at least regional) television. Having absolutely no chance to make the tournament would make for a tough sell. And not even having a chance for a real league title doesn't help. The Great West helps a little, but it isn't a long term or established league. Sometimes you can get lucky and pick up a player that really likes the school, or one that other schools overlook. But it probably isn't going to be fair to judge Jones for another 2 or 3 years at a minimum.

Pretty much every high school boy basketball player dreams of playing dI. For that reason, we should be in a good position to, at a minimum, get some of the best dII-caliber players around. I'm not sure we are. In fact, I think we'd finish in the bottom third of the NSIC right now. Yes, Jones didn't come in at a great time with the impending dI transition, but it's still his fourth year, and no apparent improvement has been shown. That's a concern IMO, particularly since he has no track record as a head coach anywhere else.

[UND92,96]

Agree. The situation with NDSU and Miles' recruiting was almostly obscenely improbable: I think a lot of people were hoping UND could somehow miraculously duplicate that feat. Even NDSU now is finding that staying within the top 100 of DI within the Summit League is extremely difficult: they'll only be a shadow of their 2008-9 team for years. SDSU is only now finding legs in its program. Also, UNC had the benefit of using the Big Sky as a recruiting tool two years before SDSU had the Summit League.

I never expected miracles, but I did expect that Glas's successor would have us clearly better than teams like Bemidji State by his fourth year. We're not.

[star2city]

I never expected miracles, but I did expect that Glas's successor would have us clearly better than teams like Bemidji State by his fourth year. We're not.

First, I truly hoped we would be in a better position than what the game results indicate. Has anyone seen UND's Sagarin Ratings? # 341 out of 347 We've regressed about 50 points from last year. We're just barely higher than NJIT, which is atrocious. Regardless of talent, the execution and confidence are just not there.

That said, Jones has shown an ability to get his teams playing their best at year end. Granted, this year, UND will be playing some of the worst teams in DI in conference play. If UND loses to NJIT, Houston Baptist, or UTPA in the second half of this year, that would be very telling.

[sioux2013]

I believe they will be fine once they mature during the year. So far they have played descent talent and the inexperience has really showed. I would still like to see a more up tempo style offense and not taking the shot clock down to 35 seconds each and every possession. Having Bledsoe in street clothes is really killing them right now. Any word on when he returns. Next year they will add some athletism and the kid from Ohio who is red shirting this year. Also, Mitchell has been hurt alot this year and spending alot of time on the bench. Next year and the year after will be critical year for this team.

[bincitysioux]

There's no question that the present team doesn't hold a candle to the early 1990's teams. But have we seen any improvement compared to the Rich Glas teams of the early-to-mid 2000's which struggled so badly against DAC teams? Granted, we're not playing many of those teams anymore, but I just don't see that the talent level has gotten any better, and obviously the team isn't grasping the Princeton offense. Throw in a zone defense which is allowing opponents to shoot 42% from 3-point range (and even Bemidji State torched us in an exhibition game from behind the arc), and it makes a person wonder exactly what is going on.

I think the defensive play is more of an issue right now than the Princeton offense. The zone defense that we play hasn't worked for years, and I don't really think it is ever going to work consistently at the DI level. Giving up 69 points per game is alot at the college level.

Offensively, the Princeton is supposed to result in either layups or kick-out passes to open shots on the perimeter. We're not making those perimeter shots, shooting just 32% from beyond the arc. With no offensive inside post threat, this team isn't going to win many games shooting 3 pointers like that.

To me, the most frustrating part the Jones era has been the rampant rate of turnovers. The team has had over 400 turnovers every year since he took over, and is on pace for nearly 500 this season. Glas' teams over his last 4 years averaged 363 turnovers per season. Jones' squads have averaged 425 turnovers per season. UND wants to slow the game down, but any advantage in doing that has been negated by giving the opposition extra possessions.

[UND92,96]

I think the defensive play is more of an issue right now than the Princeton offense. The zone defense that we play hasn't worked for years, and I don't really think it is ever going to work consistently at the DI level. Giving up 69 points per game is alot at the college level.

Offensively, the Princeton is supposed to result in either layups or kick-out passes to open shots on the perimeter. We're not making those perimeter shots, shooting just 32% from beyond the arc. With no offensive inside post threat, this team isn't going to win many games shooting 3 pointers like that.

To me, the most frustrating part the Jones era has been the rampant rate of turnovers. The team has had over 400 turnovers every year since he took over, and is on pace for nearly 500 this season. Glas' teams over his last 4 years averaged 363 turnovers per season. Jones' squads have averaged 425 turnovers per season. UND wants to slow the game down, but any advantage in doing that has been negated by giving the opposition extra possessions.

Good points.

Basically, when you combine a slow-down, turnover-prone offense, poor shooting and an ineffective zone defense, it adds up to being number 341 out of 347 dI teams in the country.

[Oxbow6]

Basically, when you combine a slow-down, turnover-prone offense, poor shooting and an ineffective zone defense, it adds up to being number 341 out of 347 dI teams in the country.

So based on what you are saying, my guess is there are either some issues with the talent on the court or the coaching or both!

[UND92,96]

So based on what you are saying, my guess is there are either some issues with the talent on the court or the coaching or both!

I don't know exactly what the problems are. I'm not as worried about the talent level as I am about getting the most out of whatever talent we do have. But I'm going to just sit back and watch how the rest of the season unfolds and refrain from making any further comments until then.

[coach daddy]

I don't know exactly what the problems are. I'm not as worried about the talent level as I am about getting the most out of whatever talent we do have. But I'm going to just sit back and watch how the rest of the season unfolds and refrain from making any further comments until then.

There isn't much talent on this team, no doubt it. Mertens playing out of position and Bledsoe not playing at all isn't helping either.

The nice thing about the game of basketball is that you only need one good recruiting class to turn a program into a winner; ask NDSU.

The difference is we all knew Tim Miles could recruit. I'm not sure we can say the same thing about Coach Jones yet. Not meant to rip him but just one man's perspective.

[sioux2013]

There is plenty of talent, which i believe will show with experience. All of these recruits were very solid high school players on very winning programs. They all scored alot of points and know how to score. They just need to be cut loose alittle more on offense and learn what it takes to win at the D1 level. Most all these kids were recruited by numerous D1 schools. Give them a chance. Again they are missing their key player this year and only one of two that has alot of experience. Jones gave most of these kids 5 year scholarships knowing the dividends would come in years 4 and 5. This is year 1 for most of them. Turnovers, poor shooting and lack of experience and injuries is why they are 1-6. Dont believe its recruiting nor coaching. This is my perspective.

[coach daddy]

There is plenty of talent, which i believe will show with experience. All of these recruits were very solid high school players on very winning programs. They all scored alot of points and know how to score. They just need to be cut loose alittle more on offense and learn what it takes to win at the D1 level. Most all these kids were recruited by numerous D1 schools. Give them a chance. Again they are missing their key player this year and only one of two that has alot of experience. Jones gave most of these kids 5 year scholarships knowing the dividends would come in years 4 and 5. This is year 1 for most of them. Turnovers, poor shooting and lack of experience and injuries is why they are 1-6. Dont believe its recruiting nor coaching. This is my perspective.

Agree with a lot of what you said. The stuff I highlighted, I would challenge. I don't believe we have a lot of players who we "out recruited" over other DI schools.

[bincitysioux]

............................. I don't believe we have a lot of players who we "out recruited" over other DI schools.

I agree with you except perhaps in the case of the Schuler kid. He put up some pretty gawdy numbers in what I believe was a pretty high level of high school ball in Ohio. Time will tell........