The Writing is on the Wall

[Goon]

Iowa and Wisconsin rescinded their policies against scheduling UND once the settlement was reached. Minnesota did not. However, my post was responding to Goon's claim that it was doubtful Minnesota would schedule UND even if UND dropped its nickname.

Well we will put you on record as saying it will happen. Time will I guess.

[mksioux]

Well we will put you on record as saying it will happen. Time will I guess.

It will happen not only in football, but in many other sports as well.

But don't misunderstand, the fact that Minnesota will schedule UND if the Sioux nickname is dropped is not enough reason to drop the nickname. I was just disagreeing with your assertion that it would not happen.

[Goon]

It will happen not only in football, but in many other sports as well.

But don't misunderstand, the fact that Minnesota will schedule UND if the Sioux nickname is dropped is not enough reason to drop the nickname. I was just disagreeing with your assertion that it would not happen.

Cool...

[Sioux-cia]

"we just can't sue REA over this". Well, I think we can and we should if it comes down to the scenario I described above.

This was painful to read. We get a $110M gift from the Engelstad's with more in trust and now we're posting, 'let's sue them'. I understand where you're coming from, it's just hard to agree to it after all their philantrophy has done for us.

[Sioux-cia]

I want the team that I've supported for the last 30 years or no team at all.

That is the stupidest thing I have read since Palin's interview with Gibson!!!

[Sioux-cia]

It wasn't supid, it was loyal. Now if you can't say something nice, feel free to say nothing at all.

Loyal is sticking with your team regardless of their name. If you are only cheering for the name and not the athletes, feel free not to cheer at all.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

Loyal is sticking with your team regardless of their name. If you are only cheering for the name and not the athletes, feel free not to cheer at all.

IMHO, loyalty resides on a two-way street. Loyalty that isn't returned will soon fade. I know my support for Illinois has waned. They caved in to a small, vocal minority, and they KNEW they were in the wrong. That is not a characteristic I can support. I hope I never become that way, giving up what is right for the sake of political correctness. If I did, I couldn't respect myself and I certainly couldn't ask others to respect my integrity.

[Sioux-cia]

IMHO, loyalty resides on a two-way street. Loyalty that isn't returned will soon fade. I know my support for Illinois has waned. They caved in to a small, vocal minority, and they KNEW they were in the wrong. That is not a characteristic I can support. I hope I never become that way, giving up what is right for the sake of political correctness. If I did, I couldn't respect myself and I certainly couldn't ask others to respect my integrity.

So, don't cheer for the state/university administrators who agreed to the settlement.

I am one of the biggest supporters of our name and logo but I'm not going to stop cheering for my school's athletes if we lose the name and logo. Why ever in God's creation would I pull my support and no longer be a fan of the athletes from the great University of North Dakota. They are representing our school when they are competing and I am proud of their acheivements and proud of the work and effort it takes to excel in their sport.

Ridiculous!!!

[mksioux]

That is the stupidest thing I have read since Palin's interview with Gibson!!!

I know...Gibson sure was stupid.

Taking pointless political potshots is not going to further the discussion on this board. But if you really want to get into the politics relating to the nickname opposition, I'm more than happy to do that. It isn't people like Sarah Palin, or her supporters, that have problems with Indian nicknames.

[Goon]

Loyal is sticking with your team regardless of their name. If you are only cheering for the name and not the athletes, feel free not to cheer at all.

I am going to have to go with Sioux-cia on this one. I am going to cheer for the Sioux if they become the fighting Norse...

[gopherz]

Minnesota "shelling" UND in football? Obviously you haven't watched a Gopher football game lately.

And there are no pre-season games in college football.

Carry on...

Actually you're the one who obviously hasn't watched a Gopher football game lately. We are 4-0 and beat 4 teams who would beat UND, maybe with the exception of Montana State. The game wouldn't even be close and even the biggest Sioux homer could admit that, it would be a blowout.

[Oxbow6]

Actually you're the one who obviously hasn't watched a Gopher football game lately. We are 4-0 and beat 4 teams who would beat UND, maybe with the exception of Montana State. The game wouldn't even be close and even the biggest Sioux homer could admit that, it would be a blowout.

That is what you Gopher "homers" said when NDSU came to town in '06 and '07. Keep drinking the Brewster kool-aid! By the way, get back to me after this weekend. If you stay within 4 TDs of the Buckeyes, you'll have a moral victory!

[mksioux]

Actually you're the one who obviously hasn't watched a Gopher football game lately. We are 4-0 and beat 4 teams who would beat UND, maybe with the exception of Montana State. The game wouldn't even be close and even the biggest Sioux homer could admit that, it would be a blowout.

I'm sorry, I thought there was a one-year prohibition against smack talking from fans of teams coming off bad seasons of historical proportions. Apparently not.

To the point, Minnesota merely managed Montana State, which is likely about the same cailber of team as UND. But carry on about blowouts if it makes you feel better.

[Sioux-cia]

I know...Gibson sure was stupid.

Taking pointless political potshots is not going to further the discussion on this board. But if you really want to get into the politics relating to the nickname opposition, I'm more than happy to do that. It isn't people like Sarah Palin, or her supporters, that have problems with Indian nicknames.

Since I haven't read of heard of Palin making any statement regarding the use of Indian names or logos, this discussion is pointless. Carry on...

[mksioux]

Since I haven't read of heard of Palin making any statement regarding the use of Indian names or logos, this discussion is pointless. Carry on...

Perhaps not. But we do know whose side Ron His Horse is Thunder is on....

[Sioux-cia]

Perhaps not. But we do know whose side Ron His Horse is Thunder is on....

The devil's...

[Goon]

Actually you're the one who obviously hasn't watched a Gopher football game lately. We are 4-0 and beat 4 teams who would beat UND, maybe with the exception of Montana State. The game wouldn't even be close and even the biggest Sioux homer could admit that, it would be a blowout.

Hold on now, I actually like the Gopher football team, I have for many years. Long before I ever came to UND. So I am not sure that label the biggest Sioux Homer applies in the case for college football. I have always been on record as hating the Gopher hockey team but loving their football team.

[Goon]

Now that's unusual. To love one team and hate another from the very same school... I gotta say that's pretty rare. But each to their own I guess. I don't really know of anybody else like that aside from a few Bison football fans who for some reason actually support Sioux hockey, which as a Sioux fan I'm not really comfortable with (I would much rather they hate us in all sports) but that's another topic for another thread.

Just for the record I have met a good number of NDSU fans that cheer for the Bison in Football but love Sioux hockey so it doesn't seem that much of a stretch.

[dmksioux]

You don't understand. A team by any other name is not the same team but in fact a completely different team. It would be the end of one sports program at the University of North Dakota, and the beginning of a brand new one. Case in point, the Minnesota Wild are not the Minnesota North Stars. They're two completely different and unrelated organizations that happened to play their home games in the same state. One team was taken away and later on replaced with another. Just because you liked the 1st team doesn't mean you automatically have ties as a fan to the 2nd team. If the name changes the team that I have supported ever since I was a little rugrat will become extinct.

You can't be serious with this post? These are totally two different scenarios. If they closed down the University of North Dakota and let's say moved it to Bismarck...current students/athletes/faculty and all. Then they opened up a new school, Grand Forks CC, at the "old location of UND" and of course with a different nickname, then you may have a point.

I too am a die hard pro Sioux nickname supporter, but I would agree with Sioux-cia that we are cheering on the students/athletes of this fine institution and not the nickname.

[82SiouxGuy]

You don't understand. A team by any other name is not the same team but in fact a completely different team. It would be the end of one sports program at the University of North Dakota, and the beginning of a brand new one. Case in point, the Minnesota Wild are not the Minnesota North Stars. They're two completely different and unrelated organizations that happened to play their home games in the same state. One team was taken away and later on replaced with another. Just because you liked the 1st team doesn't mean you automatically have ties as a fan to the 2nd team. If the name changes the team that I have supported ever since I was a little rugrat will become extinct.

I disagree with your entire premise. The example that you use of the Wild and the North Stars is totally different from what may happen with the University of North Dakota. As you said, the Wild and the North Stars were two completely different organizations. The only thing they have/had in common is the state of Minnesota. That would not be the case with UND. The UND Athletic Department will remain the same except for the label used to identify them. For example, UND has used 3 different logos in the past 20 years for the athletic program. A new nickname and/or logo would just be a further evolution of the program. Changes are continuously being made within the organization, but the entity of UND Athletics has continued. And they will continue whether the nickname is changed or not. I support the University of North Dakota and UND Athletics and will continue to support them if they end up changing the name. I may not like the change, but I will adapt.

[dmksioux]

Don't like the North Stars/Wild example? Fine, here's a better one... the Tennessee Titans are not the same as the Houston/Tennessee Oilers. Just because somebody liked the Oilers doesn't mean they're going to like the Titans.

This example still doesn't work for me Dave. Had the Houston Oilers moved to Nasheville and stuck with the Tennesse Oilers, only to change their name to the Titans after two seasons, I would say that they would have had the same support. However, they did not have a stadium those first two years and thus played in Memphis... It gets kind of complicated but here is a link about their move...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennessee_Titans

Scroll down to the '97-'98 era...

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

So, don't cheer for the state/university administrators who agreed to the settlement.

I never have "cheered for administrators" in the past.

I've respected some, admired some; but cheering for our administrators? No. And to be honest, I yearn for the day when our present group goes.

IMHO, school administrators shouldn't be asking for "cheers" for doing their jobs. However, our current group is working against Illinois IMHO.

I am one of the biggest supporters of our name and logo but I'm not going to stop cheering for my school's athletes if we lose the name and logo.

Well, I did say my support has

waned

, not disappeared. During the games I find myself listening and cheering as much as before; but OTOH I used to be able to tell you a lot about recruiting, how many scholarships we had, who the targets were, etc. and that high level of interest has definitely gone by the wayside. I find that I am much more compartmentalized: I let go of both losses and wins a lot quicker. I certainly buy much less Illini merchandise. On all of the above counts, I doubt I am the only one who has done this with the exact same timing.

Why ever in God's creation would I pull my support and no longer be a fan of the athletes from the great University of North Dakota.

Ironically, many years ago I found myself asking roughly the same question as you wrote here. I couldn't conceive of a time that our administrators would pull support from Chief Illiniwek. Why in the name of all that nature has created would they do that? Certainly anyone could see that reasonable people in Florida and Utah (among other groups) supported both their schools as well as their longtime symbols-they recognized that the school was doing nothing wrong and causing no one any harm in any way, shape or form. I was confident the administrators at Illinois would certainly be able to recognize that fact as well as anyone.

Obviously, that didn't happen.

And I'm still a fan: I just don't live and die with them anymore. It's a step towards apathy, I'll grant you that.

They are representing our school when they are competing and I am proud of their achievements and proud of the work and effort it takes to excel in their sport.

One thing that certainly changed for me: I'm much more open to supporting our other state schools. Those students are working just as hard as the Illini, maybe even harder since they don't have the equipment, support and facilities that are present in Champaign.

To the extent that there are only 24 hours in each day, then yes: I am supporting Illinois much less now than before. I console myself by knowing that I'm supporting college athletes just as much as before; perhaps even more.

... That would not be the case with UND. The UND Athletic Department will remain the same except for the label used to identify them. For example, UND has used 3 different logos in the past 20 years for the athletic program. A new nickname and/or logo would just be a further evolution of the program...

I totally disagree. A simple way to find out if this is "evolutionary": would the screaming maniacs on the other side say their goal is evolutionary? Or would they say "revolutionary"??

Perhaps your school has changed some logos in the past, but AFAIK the old logos are still available, correct? And has the nickname

EVER

changed? I'm guessing that a 1988 grad could still pull out a college sweatshirt, give it to the son/daughter headed off to college and everyone would know what it was and what it symbolized: no one would be "offended" that they weren't wearing the latest, most up-to-date logo. But the die-hards on the other side want to be "offended" by the Sioux logo and nickname. At least one person here has proposed throwing people out of the hockey arena if they wore a Sioux sweatshirt. A

evolutionary

attitude? Hardly.

The goal of the opposing side today is the complete eradication of the nickname and logo in any form; either current or evolutionary. That's far different than what may have happened during the last twenty years. Not the same thing at all. Not even close.

[mksioux]

Memphis/Nashville... it's still Tennessee. For what it's worth, they only played one season in Memphis (not two as you implied) and were known as the Oilers for one season in Nashville prior to the name change. But I can give you even another example that you can't possibly dismiss. The Washington Bullets/Wizards. The Bullets are extinct, having been replaced by the Wizards. Had I been a Bullets fan I would've bailed on them the minute they changed the name to Wizards.

The Bullets/Wizards analogy is the only one you've cited that can be compared with what will happen to UND. The other ones involved the team actually moving to a different city, region, and state. UND, on the other hand, is not going anywhere.

I understand your frustration. It will be awfully difficult for me to have the same affection toward UND's sports teams for a while, particularly if they replace one of the best college nicknames in the country with some new-age generic nickname. But to stop supporting UND athletics altogether is a little extreme IMO. It will probably take me a long time to buy anything with the new nickname on it, but I'm sure I'll continue to watch and follow the teams. But it's a personal choice and to each their own.

[Goon]

I just don't get how anybody who allegedly loves Sioux hockey could not like Sioux football too. I mean, like I already said, each to their own. I guess all I'm saying is that I personally could never do that.

When did I ever say I didn't like Sioux football? Now your putting words in my mouth. I said I also like the Gopher and they would beat the Sioux handedly this season. I am thinking you have a reading compehension problem. Where is it written that I can't like Sioux hockey and Football and also cheer for the Gopher football team? Is there some rule written somewhere? I guess I didn't get the memo if there is. They aren't in the same league the Sioux are FCS IAA and the Gophers are Divsion 1A (isn't that BCS?) not really even technically rivals.

[Stromer]

When did I ever say I didn't like Sioux football? Now your putting words in my mouth. I said I also like the Gopher and they would beat the Sioux handedly this season. I am thinking you have a reading compehension problem. Where is it written that I can't like Sioux hockey and Football and also cheer for the Gopher football team? Is there some rule written somewhere? I guess I didn't get the memo if there is. They aren't in the same league the Sioux are FCS IAA and the Gophers are Divsion 1A (isn't that BCS?) not really even technically rivals.

I think he was talkign about the Bison fans when he said that. And I also have no problem cheering on the Gophs in football. Rather have them win the Big 10 (never gonna happen) than Michigan or OSU. But I still hate them in hockey.