Drinking Age~~yeah its a REAL debate

[GF_siouxfan]

im going going for #3 or #4

[Sioux-cia]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25572774/

"She was the one we never had to worry about," Kate Foellmi said. "I remember calling her up and saying, `I am just so proud of you. I'm so glad you have your head screwed on straight.'"

On the morning of Dec. 13, the young woman finished a physics final and called her mom, screaming: "I passed!" She told her mother she was going to go have a beer.

"I said, `You deserve one,'" Kate Foellmi recalled.

[Goon]

I think if you can be sent to combat when you 18 you should be able to drink a beer.

That is what I used to say when I was in the military back in the 1980's. Seems only fair.

[siouxforeverbaby]

I agree that if you can die for your country than you should be able to have a beer with your buddies before it. As for lowering it, it might be good to talk to other countries with it that low and figure out why it is working there and see if we could do it.

PS: Speaking from experience growing up in a border state, you go to Canada as soon as you are old enough anyway or you know the cops that will pick you up.

[The Sicatoka]

Life and public policy is all give and take.

I'll give down to an 18 year old drinking age.

No one will like what I'll take in return* ...

* I've been in a car struck by a speeding drunk.

[LeftyZL]

Life and public policy is all give and take.

I'll give down to an 18 year old drinking age.

No one will like what I'll take in return* ...

* I've been in a car struck by a speeding drunk.

I completely agree. A lot of people, including myself, have driven when they shouldn't have. Getting hit on the driver's side door by a drunk driver really opened up my eyes.

It's just a sticky situation that really should be left alone and kept how it is IMO.

[dlsiouxfan]

The drinking age is pointless. No one who drinks waits until their 21 to start. That goes for my generation, my parent's generation, or my grandparents generation. Getting people to drink responsibly is really the issue. Drunk driving is a major problem but it's a problem for all ages and I don't think you can point a finger at any specific age group. Personally I probably know far more people between the ages of 35-60 who drive under the influence than people ages 18-35. I chalk this up to younger people having received a lot better education regarding drinking and driving and the penalties and consequences associated with it than previous generations. Heck, a lot of older people still remember the days when a DUI fine carried the same penalties as any other traffic ticket. In the end it comes down to personal choice and no amount of regulation can ever change that.

[The Sicatoka]

Heck, a lot of older people still remember the days when a DUI fine carried the same penalties as any other traffic ticket. In the end it comes down to personal choice and no amount of regulation can ever change that.

Regulation can affect choices. Proof? How about ....

Drive drunk and kill someone = Death Penalty.

Why not? Guns and cars are killing machines if misused.

Except you can kill indiscriminately with a car (if you claim you were drunk).

[dlsiouxfan]

I agree with you. If you take a life with a car when you're drinking and driving you should be punished the same as if you'd done it with a gun or a knife. However, even if the penalties are that harsh it won't stop some people from drinking and driving. Same as with the drinking age whether the age is 18, 21, or 25 and the fines are $1,000 a pop if kids want to drink they'll still find ways to get alcohol and do it.

[Sioux-cia]

I think if you can be sent to combat when you 18 you should be able to drink a beer.

That is what I used to say when I was in the military back in the 1980's. Seems only fair.

Truth be known, I don't believe that 18 years olds should be sent into combat. I would fight and vote for that change without hesitation.

[coach daddy]

Truth be known, I don't believe that 18 years olds should be sent into combat. I would fight and vote for that change without hesitation.

I was of the opinion that military personnel under the age of 21 COULD drink on the bases they were stationed at. Am I wrong?

I am against bringing the age down because if 18 year olds can buy alcohol, they will buy it for children who are even younger than they are. I know 21 year olds do this already but I believe they will do it to for an older (18) crowd than an 18 year old would. One of those responsibility issues that I believe comes with age.

[Goon]

I was of the opinion that military personnel under the age of 21 COULD drink on the bases they were stationed at. Am I wrong?

I am against bringing the age down because if 18 year olds can buy alcohol, they will buy it for children who are even younger than they are. I know 21 year olds do this already but I believe they will do it to for an older (18) crowd than an 18 year old would. One of those responsibility issues that I believe comes with age.

It changed the year before or right around that time I got in the Military (June of 1985), you had to be the legal drinking age for that state you were stationed in. I was stationed over seas right after basic training. Alabama where I went to basic training was 19 years old and I was 18 at the time so no dice for me. Of course I might have had a drink or two but you didn't want to come back to the barracks drunk in basic training because you would end up reviewing for a second time every thing that you drank or ate that day.

In Germany basically we didn't have a drinking age off base and I don't think we had a minimum age on base in Germany or at least I don't remember there being one at Patch Barracks, or it was 19 which was the age that I was the day I signed in at my new unit.

[Goon]

Truth be known, I don't believe that 18 years olds should be sent into combat. I would fight and vote for that change without hesitation.

By the time most recruits are out of basic training and their advanced individual training they are probably going to be 19 or almost 19 years old.

[redwing77]

I'm kinda mixed on the topic.

First off, lowering the drinking age will only make what is already basically happening legal instead of illegal. It will only confirm Frats as still the reigning bastion of near on-campus drinking (IIRC, the frats aren't considered "on campus"). They will no longer have to hide it.

Yeah, I know there are board members here who are, have been, or have good friends who are/were frat members. I know that not all frats are bad and not everyone from even the "bad" frats drinks to excess, but their track record.... and the relative little they've done publically to repair the image... sorry. I stand by my bias.

However, stupidity sober or otherwise doesn't hold to a particular age. Raising the drinking age would be simply stupid.

On the other hand, I'm against any high schooler having free access to alcohol.

I guess I'd be very harsh on those caught drinking who are underage. I'm sick of it being dismissed simply as "kids will do stupid things every now and then." The same phrase used to justify lowering the drinking age can be used to justify harsher treatment for offenders: "They are considered adults at the age of 18." If they are adults, then they are NOT kids. Leniency because they are just "kids being young and careless" is merely an out. It's like the threat "Do this or else!" Or else what? Oh no! The courts slapped my wrist! Guess I gotta stay clean!

Heh, I wouldn't be opposed to suspension for the duration of the term (or the following term if caught in between terms) for underage drinkers. Maybe even more harsh measures.

I guess that, if the punishment were really harsh and stiff, it wouldn't stop it from happening, but it sure would suck a lot more for those who are caught.

[dlsiouxfan]

I'm kinda mixed on the topic.

First off, lowering the drinking age will only make what is already basically happening legal instead of illegal. It will only confirm Frats as still the reigning bastion of near on-campus drinking (IIRC, the frats aren't considered "on campus"). They will no longer have to hide it.

Yeah, I know there are board members here who are, have been, or have good friends who are/were frat members. I know that not all frats are bad and not everyone from even the "bad" frats drinks to excess, but their track record.... and the relative little they've done publically to repair the image... sorry. I stand by my bias.

However, stupidity sober or otherwise doesn't hold to a particular age. Raising the drinking age would be simply stupid.

On the other hand, I'm against any high schooler having free access to alcohol.

I guess I'd be very harsh on those caught drinking who are underage. I'm sick of it being dismissed simply as "kids will do stupid things every now and then." The same phrase used to justify lowering the drinking age can be used to justify harsher treatment for offenders: "They are considered adults at the age of 18." If they are adults, then they are NOT kids. Leniency because they are just "kids being young and careless" is merely an out. It's like the threat "Do this or else!" Or else what? Oh no! The courts slapped my wrist! Guess I gotta stay clean!

Heh, I wouldn't be opposed to suspension for the duration of the term (or the following term if caught in between terms) for underage drinkers. Maybe even more harsh measures.

I guess that, if the punishment were really harsh and stiff, it wouldn't stop it from happening, but it sure would suck a lot more for those who are caught.

You can't be serious? To start I know a lot of good kids and students who drank underage. Kids who are now successful adults and have done a lot of great things for the community and for other people. Harsh punishments like that would only have de-railed their futures for violating a pointless law that probably the majority of our population has violated at some time. Furthermore, the punishment for underage drinking has gotten more and more harsh and has it's frequency dropped one bit? Heck, most of the adults on this site drank underage and it was dismissed with a wink and a nod and they somehow became productive adults. I'm sorry but I'd rather error on the side of leniency than crucify kids for violating a law that nearly every person on this site probably violated at one time or another.

[siouxfbfan]

how come no one has brought up the option of the drinking age being 19, which i am in favor of. I am in favor of the because this will lower the drinking age for college kids but will still not allow "most" high school kids to drink/buy alcohol. I believe this is the most reasonable option because college kids/military personal should be responsible enough to drink and purchase alcohol but i don't believe high school kids are.

[mikeypat15]

How bout this?

You must be 18, but cannot drink until

6 months after you graduate from high school or receive your GED

If you do not receive either of those your drinking age remains 21.

This will greatly increase graduation rates, and you know the college presidents will love it cause it means more money in their pocket as most likely higher enrollment.

This will also keep alcohol somewhat out of high schools. You already have brothers/sisters buying alcohol for their high school siblings which is rather impossible to stop, but this will keep older students in high school from buying alcohol for their 17 year old peers.

[Goon]

Just for the record Germany and most of Europe does not have the problems with Drinking that the USA has.

I don't know why but just putting out there...

[Slamdance]

Just for the record Germany and most of Europe does not have the problems with Drinking that the USA has.

I don't know why but just putting out there...

As has been previously stated, and I agree, if you are old enough to fight and die for your country AND old enough to vote for the idiots who are going to send you to do as such, you should be able to drink.

One of the reasons the U.S.A. has such a drinking issue (I refuse to catagoize it as a "problem") is because we as a nation have made it such a rite of passage and make drinking such a big effin' deal.

In Europe, drinking milk is over by the time you are out of diapers. The young drink wine (diluted) or weak ales and beers or, mostly, juice and water. Drinking is seen as no big deal and part of the normal way of life. Granted there are exceptions (Oktoberfest comes to mind), but for the most part, they have a more "adult" view of alcohol, whereas we here in the States, have a distinctly "frat boy" take on the alcohol industry, equating booze with boobs, etc.

It has the view of the "forbidden fruit" and therefore all the more desirable. We need to get over that and make alcohol less of a big deal, not more.

If you want to raise the drinking age (and voting age and the age of military service) to 25 or 35 or try Prohibition again, good luck with that, let me know how it works out for you.

And to you MADD members and supporters;

You can beso mi culo, you guys are an effin' racket and hypocrites (sp?).

[Sioux-cia]

Why is it when some members disagree with the opinions of other members they resort to name calling and insults? Can't their opinion stand alone?

[GF_siouxfan]

If the us abolished the drinking age there would be mass objection. But, in the long run say.. a couple generations down the road their wouldnt be as much drinking under age and binge drinking as there is now..

[Slamdance]

Why is it when some members disagree with the opinions of other members they resort to name calling and insults? Can't their opinion stand alone?

Although you did not point me out directly, I'm fairly certain you are referring to my "MADD" comment/insult/OPINION.

The MADD machine is one of the problems in the U.S. as far as alcohol perception is concerned. And while there is some doubt about the rumor that the former chairman was arrested for D.U.I. after a MADD fundraiser, it think it would be karma if it were true.

MADD started out with the right idea, to help the victims and their families who were hurt or killed in accidents caused by drunk drivers.

It has become one of the main demonizers of alcohol instead of educators and a profitable non-profit organization. It has also become a requirement in CA to attend one of their "classes" if you are arrested for D.U.I. here. In these "classes" you are lectured to and given heart-rending stories of families victimized by the idiocy of drunk drivers. You are also required to give a "voluntary" donation of $20.00. If you do not give the "voluntary" donation, MADD does not send the court the proof you attended the class. Kinda like extortion, don'tcha think? As the B.A.C. for driving under the influence keeps getting lower and lower (because of pressure from MADD and insurance companies), these classes get bigger and bigger, and the money pours in. I'm sure that in the near future, if you are over .05 BAC, you will be LEGALLY intoxicated. Arrests will go up, and the money for courts, lawyers, MADD, drunk driving classes, rehabs/sober living homes, etc. will be off the charts.

That's why I call it a racket.

As far as my "hypocrites" comment is concerned, I have attended TOO many functions where I have seen judges, prosecutors, law enforcement officers, AND MADD members drinking alcohol and then driving.

Isn't that the definition of hypocracy (sp?)?

If you are referring to the raising of the drinking/voting/military service age, I was not insulting you, I just find it highly unlikely that it will happen.

[redwing77]

How bout this?

You must be 18, but cannot drink until

6 months after you graduate from high school or receive your GED

If you do not receive either of those your drinking age remains 21.

This will greatly increase graduation rates, and you know the college presidents will love it cause it means more money in their pocket as most likely higher enrollment.

This will also keep alcohol somewhat out of high schools. You already have brothers/sisters buying alcohol for their high school siblings which is rather impossible to stop, but this will keep older students in high school from buying alcohol for their 17 year old peers.

How are you going to enforce this?

dlsiouxfan- Am I serious? Yup. You, right off the bat, proved my point. You simply gave that wink and nod and said "well, kids will be kids." You dismiss it almost outright and scoff at me because I don't. Derail people's futures? Perhaps, but breaking the law tends to do that, doesn't it? Here's what you should do. Re-read my last post and take this to heart: I meant every single gall dang word I said.

It's nice to know people who don't turn out worthless drunks because they drank underage. I am not out to combat drunks. Drunks will become drunks whether the drinking age is 21 or 2. My stance is that breaking the law is breaking the law. PERIOD. I will not dismiss underage drinking as just kids acting stupid.

Right now, they pay a harsh fine or get a good lawyer to decrease the charge to DWI or reckless endangerment or whatever. They leave the courtroom saddened that their insurance has gone up and that they've had to pay this amount of money or done some sort of service or class. Big whoop. They know that, as long as they don't screw up TOO many times, they'll be alright. What's 1 DUI? What's 2?

In Australia, IIRC, you get a DUI, your drivers license is history for a year for the FIRST DUI! Imagine what happens if you get a second!

THAT is harsh treatment.

Besides, you are not at college to learn toxicology. You are there, one would assume, to get a higher educational degree. The problem with the age limit being 21 is that it assumes 21 year olds are mature enough to understand that. The problem is, many are not. I know 30 year olds who aren't mature.

DaveK brings up a point that makes sense: Take away the aura of mischief and it becomes less "fun." I would take it one step further. On Friday and Saturday nights and on school holidays (long weekends), I'd triple the police patrols along frat row and set up sobriety checkpoints at several places down University Ave.

I'm sick and tired of this dismissive attitude towards underagers doing stupid things. They are 18. They are adults. They are no longer kids. Time to raise the expectations to reflect that. No more dismissing anything. Great people do stupid things, but "goodness" doesn't excuse their stupidity. Throw the book at them and beat them senseless with it.

Deterrants don't work if the only "real" trouble they get in happens if they "do it again."

[bincitysioux]

Drinking age of 21 sounds about right to me, for civilians (like me).

If you have a Military I.D., I think you should be able to have a cool one at the end of the day, regardless of age.

[the force]

how come no one has brought up the option of the drinking age being 19, which i am in favor of. I am in favor of the because this will lower the drinking age for college kids but will still not allow "most" high school kids to drink/buy alcohol. I believe this is the most reasonable option because college kids/military personal should be responsible enough to drink and purchase alcohol but i don't believe high school kids are.

Totally agree here. 19 would be fine but let military drink at 18 since they have earned that right. There is a big difference between an 18 year old in the military and a civilian 18 year old maturity wise. My same belief on not allowing 18 year olds because to many are in high school yet and we don't need another teen night at the bar like in the old Bridge Bar days.