Gamma Phi Beta should be removed from campus!

[siouxforeverbaby]

May I point out that we are assuming that these students were ones that have been at UND for awhile. Some of them could have been freshman who having come from a long way away or transfer students who would not know what we all know about the nickname issue? If that makes sense. Not that ignorance excuses them, but if you were a senior at that party, how would you explain in a quick nutshell about the entire issue? People don't always come to UND knowing about the nickname issue and we can't expect them to not do things like this just because they attend UND.

[redwing77]

Wait a minute..... members of Greek Life doing something stupid? NO WAY! That NEVER happens!

Seriously, yet another item to add to the long list of things that support making Greek Life a NON-School supported function. That means, they are allowed to exist, but they exist off campus, not affiliated with any University or place of higher education, receive no state funds or college funding of any kind, and so on.

Sure, they won't fall under the University Code of Conduct any more, but who cares. They no longer have to answer to the University. Instead, they answer to the Judicial System. Much better.

But again, I'm a bit biased.

(And before anyone or everyone jumps on me, I realize that not all Greek Life is like this, but a damn good percentage is. Black Eye on a large body or otherwise, the large body has done next to nothing visible to eliminate the black eye, which, IMO, makes them equally culpable)

[siouxkid12]

Linky

no excuse EXCEPT they're young and stupid which we all were at one time. Even though it was off campus, this is probably the final nail in the coffin of the nickname.

not poking fun at indians but one of the kids looks like "wilson" from cast away!

[siouxkid12]

what i dont understand is isnt their a copyright issue with these pictures? they say that they were copied from a website by a NA and then passed on in the complaint

[siouxforeverbaby]

Wait a minute..... members of Greek Life doing something stupid? NO WAY! That NEVER happens!

Seriously, yet another item to add to the long list of things that support making Greek Life a NON-School supported function. That means, they are allowed to exist, but they exist off campus, not affiliated with any University or place of higher education, receive no state funds or college funding of any kind, and so on.

Sure, they won't fall under the University Code of Conduct any more, but who cares. They no longer have to answer to the University. Instead, they answer to the Judicial System. Much better.

But again, I'm a bit biased.

(And before anyone or everyone jumps on me, I realize that not all Greek Life is like this, but a damn good percentage is. Black Eye on a large body or otherwise, the large body has done next to nothing visible to eliminate the black eye, which, IMO, makes them equally culpable)

except, the fraternites aren't on campus, they lease their property. And as long as you are a student at the University, you answer to the Code of Conduct also known as the Code of Life.

Unfortunately, the pictures were taken off facebook and copyright does not really count there. That is the risk you take putting pictures up there is that anyone can rightclick and hit save picture.

[Matt]

Not that ignorance excuses them, but if you were a senior at that party, how would you explain in a quick nutshell about the entire issue?

If I'm I senior I say something like "Are you out of your effing mind freshman??!!! Get your effing butt outta here and change that costume before we all get kicked off campus!!! And pick up another 12 pack while your out."

[siouxforeverbaby]

If I'm I senior I say something like "Are you out of your effing mind freshman??!!! Get your effing butt outta here and change that costume before we all get kicked off campus!!! And pick up another 12 pack while your out."

my point was that the freshman is going to want to know why and you can't explain the nickname issue in one night especially when you are drinking.

[Chewey]

The whole thing is so incredibly asinine. If my two kids dress up as the Lone Ranger and Tonto for Halloween and we go trick or treating close to a university campus, we're going to have trouble. This is what happens when the freedom of speech is squelched by the hyper-sensitivity of a few. New social mores dictate that we should all be offended by inane and idiotic behavior? How does this help people cope in the real world? How does this help people become more economically productive for purposes of competing with other countries? How does this help secure our borders? This whole PC paranoia is emblematic of the intellectual lethargy, creative atrophy, and the perpetuation/incessant tautologizing of race-based stereotypes all to common in today's so-called academia. It's all about control and power. If one can call another a "racist" for pretty much anything and the other fears being called a "racist" over and over again for standing up for himself, there is considerable power yielded over the other by the first person. There was nothing racist about the party at all, overtly or inferentially. The real spirits of "racism" lay in the troubled hearts and minds of those who are offended. The onus of racism is on them and they use racist tactics to promote their own agendas. Helpful suggestion that needs to be internalized and implemented: Get a thicker skin.

[JackJD]

The whole thing is so incredibly asinine. If my two kids dress up as the Lone Ranger and Tonto for Halloween and we go trick or treating close to a university campus, we're going to have trouble. This is what happens when the freedom of speech is squelched by the hyper-sensitivity of a few. New social mores dictate that we should all be offended by inane and idiotic behavior? How does this help people cope in the real world? How does this help people become more economically productive for purposes of competing with other countries? How does this help secure our borders? This whole PC paranoia is emblematic of the intellectual lethargy, creative atrophy, and the perpetuation/incessant tautologizing of race-based stereotypes all to common in today's so-called academia. It's all about control and power. If one can call another a "racist" for pretty much anything and the other fears being called a "racist" over and over again for standing up for himself, there is considerable power yielded over the other by the first person. There was nothing racist about the party at all, overtly or inferentially. The real spirits of "racism" lay in the troubled hearts and minds of those who are offended. The onus of racism is on them and they use racist tactics to promote their own agendas. Helpful suggestion that needs to be internalized and implemented: Get a thicker skin.

Don't you think your argument is a little over the top? Geez, throwing out such important concepts as "freedom of speech" etc. is an exaggeration. Nobody said the sorority members or those attending the party should have been prevented from doing what they did. I think many posters have noted that it was unfortunate they held the party given the current climate at UND, the controversy with the NCAA settlement etc. etc. As has been noted, the same party and costumes at most any other university wouldn't be news. I am interested in following UND through DI transition. Some issues are entirely within the school's control (like, what to call the teams) while other issues are nearly impossible to control (scheduling, travel, joining a conference). Pick your fights. Dump the name.

I like Force of the North and its derivative, the Force.

[Chewey]

Don't you think your argument is a little over the top? Geez, throwing out such important concepts as "freedom of speech" etc. is an exaggeration. Nobody said the sorority members or those attending the party should have been prevented from doing what they did. I think many posters have noted that it was unfortunate they held the party given the current climate at UND, the controversy with the NCAA settlement etc. etc. As has been noted, the same party and costumes at most any other university wouldn't be news. I am interested in following UND through DI transition. Some issues are entirely within the school's control (like, what to call the teams) while other issues are nearly impossible to control (scheduling, travel, joining a conference). Pick your fights. Dump the name.

I like Force of the North and its derivative, the Force.

Over the top? Are you serious? With "JackJD" as your handle, I presume you're in, or were recently in, law school, right? Wasn't a "complaint" filed and wasn't the sorority "sanctioned"? Maybe Jim Grijalva is or was

your Con Law professor? He's a nice guy and an ok hockey player but objective he is not. Marcia O'Kelly was a raving feminist but she had some modicum of objectivity about her. When you have, previously, individuals on this board advocating that anyone using the "Fighting Sioux" nickname or wearing "Fighting Sioux" attire should be removed from the Ralph and when you have a sorority being sanctioned for dressing in a certain way, off-campus, that is "offensive" to a minority of a minority, you have a free speech issue. Keeping the name is within our control, to a degree. Put it to a vote of the entirety of both tribes. If the name is so harmful, let the anti-nickname crowd agree to such a vote and let us see if the tribes agree with them. If the name is changed, there would be a much smoother transition if such vote were held. It's been 30 to 35 years for Dartmouth and they still have issues over their old nickname. I think a vote of the tribes would go a long way to preventing that sort of post-name change phenomenon for UND. Newsflash: People are allowed to behave like idiots, even sorority and fraternity members. Doesn't "time, place and manner" ring any bells for anyone?

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

Interesting...just so I'm straight...it may be possible that the subjects of the photos may be part of the anti-nickname crowd...and the photos were used by other anti-nickname people for their agenda. Very interesting thought...is this an opportunity to reignite the passions of this issue which have been relatively dormant since the settlement? It's certainly plausible, but if the photos are four months old, why the lag? If those dressing up were trying to cause trouble, you'd think they would be eager for those photos to get out and be made public sooner.

Just pointing out that there's more than one possibility as far as motivation.

I personally am with the "are you kidding? Someone called their Saturday night drinkfest a "cowboy" party: and people here are calling them stupid because they did this within some unnamed radius of a group of hyped up radicals mad at the world? They have no more or less rights than anyone else on any campus. There is absolutely NO proof that anything illegal happened. Now we have idiots wasting newspaper space on not only this non-story but someone here who called a themed party a nail in a coffin?" crowd.

I don't know when the photos were actually placed on line. If they've been out there for four months, then maybe the protesters had other things to do, like earn a living. Don't really know or care. I'm just astounded at the people here who are all over kids on their own campus doing the exact same thing that goes on LITERALLY in all fifty states. There is absolutely no proof of any damage except to the "you hurt my feelings" brigade who would tell you that sunshine is discriminatory if you were to waste five seconds of your life listening to them.

[Stromer]

Just pointing out that there's more than one possibility as far as motivation.

I personally am with the "are you kidding? Someone called their Saturday night drinkfest a "cowboy" party: and people here are calling them stupid because they did this within some unnamed radius of a group of hyped up radicals mad at the world? They have no more or less rights than anyone else on any campus. There is absolutely NO proof that anything illegal happened. Now we have idiots wasting newspaper space on not only this non-story but someone here who called a themed party a nail in a coffin?" crowd.

I don't know when the photos were actually placed on line. If they've been out there for four months, then maybe the protesters had other things to do, like earn a living. Don't really know or care. I'm just astounded at the people here who are all over kids on their own campus doing the exact same thing that goes on LITERALLY in all fifty states. There is absolutely no proof of any damage except to the "you hurt my feelings" brigade who would tell you that sunshine is discriminatory if you were to waste five seconds of your life listening to them.

Your right. Only feelings got hurt. And I find it upsetting that a complaint was filed. I also am totally against the PC crowd. However, was it necessary to have a "cowboy" themed party on a campus trying to refute claims of racism? Could not the goal of having a fun night have been done with a theme that did not present an opportunity for the PC crowd to cause an uproar? I think that is the key thing to focus on.

[Stromer]

my point was that the freshman is going to want to know why and you can't explain the nickname issue in one night especially when you are drinking.

Freshman know what is going on, unless they live in a cave. This was not a case of not knowing things, but rather a case of not thinking it out all the way.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

Your right. Only feelings got hurt. And I find it upsetting that a complaint was filed. I also am totally against the PC crowd. However, was it necessary to have a "cowboy" themed party on a campus trying to refute claims of racism? Could not the goal of having a fun night have been done with a theme that did not present an opportunity for the PC crowd to cause an uproar? I think that is the key thing to focus on.

As I have a few minutes, and as I continue to be absolutely astounded by the number of people who are seemingly fascinated by the idea that an ad hoc "censorship" can be effectively and equitably enforced, I'll play along. A few questions:

-Who gets to say what is "unacceptable"? Unacceptable attire, unacceptable speech, unacceptable music-how big of a committee should be setting these guidelines?

-How far of a radius from your campus are these parties "banned"? Is it a tiered ban; say, all parties banned within 5 miles, one party per year 5-10 miles, two parties 10-20 miles, etc? Or does it apply to all of North Dakota? Age limits? I mean, what if the party in question is being thrown by someone age 30?

-Let's say a local busybody is cruising around town one night, wearing his aluminum foil hat and using his Area 51-approved listening device to monitor shindigs for unacceptable activity: suddenly, he detects someone wearing (one, two or three-take your choice) feathers!!! Who does he call? The FBI? Local police? Campus police? Or does he himself have the authority to break down the door and snap some cellphone pictures to preserve the outrage for the internet?

-Once one of these parties is busted, who pays the legal bills for the lawyers who will be called in once an adult realizes it's simply not illegal to dress any %&^$ way you please?

I'm sure I'll have a few more questions as time goes on, but in the meantime, I'm looking for answers to any of these. Because I certainly can't think of any.

(BTW, as long as we're banning parties based on what someone thinks of the shirt you're wearing, can anyone tell me just what sort of an area should be banned from viewing "John Wayne Week" on AMC??? )

[siouxforeverbaby]

Freshman know what is going on, unless they live in a cave. This was not a case of not knowing things, but rather a case of not thinking it out all the way.

but not all of them will, if the party was in November than they hadn't been on campus that long and some of them aren't coming from North Dakota and Minnesota where the nickname is a huge debate. Like I said, not that it excuses them, but ignornance definitely could have been a factor here.

And the person who found the pictures was a student, so she wasn't off making a living if the pictures were online before now.

[HaksHomey]

This is such a sickening story... and to just hear about NDSU... man, I am embarrassed.

[dakotadan]

This is such a sickening story...

[JackJD]

Over the top? Are you serious? ....

Edited response:

I guess since I don't have a dog in this fight, I'll just stay out of it from this point on. Happy ripping on each other!

[redwing77]

Freshman know what is going on, unless they live in a cave. This was not a case of not knowing things, but rather a case of not thinking it out all the way.

Precisely.

If freshmen are learning about this issue in this way, then the problem isn't insensitivity on the part of UND students. It's about UND having admission standards that allow the criminally retarded (not to be confused with mentally handicapped people...those people aren't that way voluntarily) into college.

I kind of see freshmen seeing this as a learning experience like this:

You see, when I was growing up, my mom brought me in front of a burning candle and said "This is fire. It is hot. If you touch it, you will get hurt and you will cry. It is an owie if you touch it. Do you understand?" She did NOT wait for me to stick my hand in the flame before explaining to me that sticking my hand in fire is bad.

The freshmen or any UND students who call this a "wake up call" or a "learning experience" should immediately be re-evaluated academically and out-processed. This isn't a learning experience. This is an act of sheer retardedness. There is nothing to learn here that you shouldn't have already learned before participating in it.

Make Universities places for the academically privileged. Don't let idiots in, regardless of how much money they have, where they come from, their ethnicity, or any other circumstances.

[siouxkid12]

why couldnt they just have had an UGLY sweater party

[hermit]

What exactly is the PC crowd? People who think about others and not only their own self gratification? Or people whose only real concern in life is how a sports team is doing? Or the people who do not worship a bunch of kids like idols because they can lace up a pair of hockey skates and win games so that they can attach themselves to the victory train and feel good about themselves? I would rather belong to the first option than the other options. The Grabba Thighs have no excuse for what they did. Their only regret is that they got caught. "It was suppose to be a "cowboy" party." Yeah and I love you, the checks in the mail. These kids knew what they were doing and were arrogant enough to think that it did not matter. Why is it so important that this logo is kept anyhow? As Durkheim wrote society is a living organism and changes with time. Only the people who are unable or willing to change with the times would think that a logo would not offend anyone. Some of you that post here should turn the hoods around, the eyeholes go in the front. Maybe we should just send the Native Americans back where they came from.

[LB#11]

What exactly is the PC crowd? Why is it so important that this logo is kept anyhow?

The PC crowd is a crowd that controls the rest of us. It consists of probably 10 to 15% of the peoople, it has power through pity. To say that the Sioux name hasn't been respected is so far from the truth. I have been around the Sioux name since around 1968, as a kid the Fighting Sioux was my team and still is to this day.

The logo is important to me today because it's important to my 6 year old son. He can't figure out why people want to get rid of the name...I just told him "don't feel like the lone ranger, the world you're coming into is a lot different than I was fortunate enough to grow up in(1960's)".

[hermit]

The PC crowd is a crowd that controls the rest of us. It consists of probably 10 to 15% of the peoople, it has power through pity. To say that the Sioux name hasn't been respected is so far from the truth. I have been around the Sioux name since around 1968, as a kid the Fighting Sioux was my team and still is to this day.

The logo is important to me today because it's important to my 6 year old son. He can't figure out why people want to get rid of the name...I just told him "don't feel like the lone ranger, the world you're coming into is a lot different than I was fortunate enough to grow up in(1960's)".

It would appear that you then are not doing a good job of educating your son. Where does this 10-15% come from or did you just make that up? If this is your version of respect I would hate to see what you consider offensive. Are the black helicopters circling your house? That grand conspiracy of the PC crowd. I would love to drop of many of you in the hood, barrio, or on a reservation and then watch you talk smack there. Your yellow stripes would glow quite brightly.

[darell1976]

The PC crowd is a crowd that controls the rest of us. It consists of probably 10 to 15% of the peoople, it has power through pity. To say that the Sioux name hasn't been respected is so far from the truth. I have been around the Sioux name since around 1968, as a kid the Fighting Sioux was my team and still is to this day.

The logo is important to me today because it's important to my 6 year old son. He can't figure out why people want to get rid of the name...I just told him "don't feel like the lone ranger, the world you're coming into is a lot different than I was fortunate enough to grow up in(1960's)".

Just tell your son that if you complain and are in the total minority you can get your way. There is no majority rule when it comes to PC. Those people should be on a deserted island somewhere where they can just bitch to each other and no one would care.

[darell1976]

It would appear that you then are not doing a good job of educating your son. Where does this 10-15% come from or did you just make that up? If this is your version of respect I would hate to see what you consider offensive. Are the black helicopters circling your house? That grand conspiracy of the PC crowd. I would love to drop of many of you in the hood, barrio, or on a reservation and then watch you talk smack there. Your yellow stripes would glow quite brightly.

Please explain to me why we have to get rid of our names cause the natives say its offensive but yet watching the ND class B tourney and seeing the Four Winds INDIANS? Double standard? Where were the protesters? Oh but Cleveland can't be the Indians.

http://www.fourwinds.k12.nd.us/education/s...php?sectionid=2

Is this logo acceptable to the Native American people? Maybe the Sioux should change their name to the Indians and have this logo?? Works for Four Winds