JackJD

My comments are limited to just the subject of USD and the Summit/MVFC. Several posts ago, someone asked whether USD made the decision to stay with the Summit and join the MVFC or whether that decision was made by "higher ups". The above-quoted statement by Dakota Fairway is pretty accurate. The decision was made by USD -- not "higher ups" -- and it was an obvious one for them. (Presumably the poster meant by "higher ups" the South Dakota Board of Regents.) I know there were news reports circulating that suggested USD was consulting with "higher ups" when it had the Big Sky invite in hand and there were efforts in the background to present an invite from the MVFC. USD's admins did a nice job of gathering the facts, making sure things were solid and then announcing its decision. For USD, being as close as it is to the MVFC schools was a no-brainer. Heck, USD is literally in the Missouri Valley (the river passes by the south edge of Vermillion) -- and just a few schools can claim they are literally located in the valley of the Missouri River. Comparisons between USD's situation and UND's situation are 'apples-to-oranges'. Nothing against UND at all with that statement: each school had its own reasons, particular conference invitations, etc etc. It sometimes makes for interesting discussion but in most respects including size of budgets, location etc., UND and USD are quite dissimilar. Dakota fairways has it right and USD's administration made the decision.

T. Denny Sanford, the individual, is a U of MN grad and resides in Sioux Falls SD. He's the principal owner of Premier Bank and Premier Bankcard, based in Sioux Falls. T. Denny Sanford donated a boatload of money to the large health-care organization based in Sioux Falls formerly know as "Sioux Valley". The health organization changed its name to Sanford Health. As has been noted in this thread, T. Denny, the individual, offered $30 or $40 million to the U of MN many years ago in conjunction with the new stadium project -- he wanted naming rights. Something broke down in the negotiations and the offer was withdrawn or not accepted. More recently, the relationship was patched up and T. Denny donated $6 million for the Hall of Fame room in the new stadium. He was present and publicly recognized on the field at halftime of the USD v. Minnesota football game. It's the health organization that merged (took over) Merit Care. It's the health organization that is being talked about as a significant donor to renovating the NDSU Bison Sports Arena. While I don't know the actual fact, I think its the health organization that made an offer to UND (I'm assuming there is substance to what I have read on this message board...I actually hadn't read or heard about such an offer until I read it here). If I had to guess, I'd say the Sanford health organization was trying to set up a strategic alliance with the UND School of Medicine, much like what it has done with the U of South Dakota School of Medicine when Sanford Health was still known as Sioux Valley Health System. [T. Denny Sanford, the individual, later made a significant personal donation to the USD School of Medicine. I doubt the inidividual Sandord is making a donation to UND.]

Final score this afternoon: Michigan State Spartans 77, Oakland U Golden Grizzlies 76. There are some who feel the image and prestige of the Summit League will continue to grow. SDSU's men's basketball is finally getting back on track and I think both NDSU and SDSU ARE very happy to be in the Summit. In the next few years the Summit will challenge the Missouri Valley in basketball prestige.

Will SDSU and NDSU still play for the Marker? Yes. I don't think SDSU will rank its rivals...it will just have tough rivalries with more than one school.

I don’t recall hearing or reading about anyone from USD dissing the Big Sky. Here is a summary of details I have put together from several sources. I have posted essentially the same summary on Bisonville and on USD’s message board. By Monday, USD joining the Big Sky was essentially a done deal. USD was planning a press conference for Thursday or Friday of this week. Big Sky Commissioner Fullerton had earlier told the press everything was in place and the paperwork was ready to be signed by USD. There were still a couple of nagging issues. One was whether Montana and Montana State would stay in the Big Sky. That seemed to be put to bed last week when Big Sky Commissioner Fullerton told everyone that Montana and Montana State were staying. Turns out that was an overstatement. Fullerton was interviewed early this week and he said his statements were more "hopeful" than factual. Read for yourself the Argus Leader interview with Fullerton: http://m.argusleader.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20101103/SPORTS0203/11030303/1002/SPORTS&template=wapart By Tuesday, the MVFC coaches went to bat for inclusion of USD...the MVFC athletic directors joined in. What was the motivating factor? I don’t know for a fact but the influence of the MVFC schools that also played in the Summit League must have played some role and perhaps the chance to pick up a school that “fit” just couldn’t be passed (protection against future defections – there are some who like to speculate that Youngstown State won’t be in the MVFC forever, that YSU would prefer to play with a conference more situated in its region). By Wednesday, the MVFC Presidents concurred with the coaches and Ads and the offer was made to USD to join the MVFC starting with the 2012 season. I’m told that also on Wednesday, USD administrators talked with Montana administrators and learned that Montana had not committed to staying in the Big Sky – so that uncertainty remained. Other issues were obvious: it seemed indisputable that expenses and costs will be higher in the Big Sky than in the Summit / MVFC combination. Playing in three different timezones is not as desirable as playing most contests in the same timezone. All things considered, the MVFC invite made the decision easy – just like the Big Sky was an easy decision if there was no MVFC invite. Late in the afternoon on Wednesday, USD accepted the MVFC offer. It appears the story leaked but couldn't be confirmed through official sources at USD. I don't know how KSFY-TV confirmed but they announced it as the lead story at 10:00 PM. The Yankton Press & Dakotan newspaper was all over the story with one very credible source but they wanted a second source for confirmation. The Argus Leader also had the story but couldn’t get the confirmation it wanted. The formal announcement is expected Thursday from USD in Vermillion.

Congrats to UND. After reading the above post, I took a look at those comments (I try to avoid newspapers' article comments). You're right: petty. I hope you're right that UND and USD joining the Big Sky will cause some of the pettiness to go away.

I look at it differently. I don't think it would be appropriate for NDSU and SDSU to bail on the MVFC and it simply wouldn't make sense when NDSU and SDSU are in an auto-bid conference. It's not a matter of leaving football programs out to hang or a question of being good conference mates (by the way, check with the League office and see who supported USD's admission to the Summit League and who, I am confident, will support UND's invitation to join the Summit League).

Last evening I questioned what I interpreted to be factual assertions based on speculation by star. It seems my question may have irritated one or two -- that was not my purpose. My primary purpose in posting was to inquire about whether there were actual facts supporting some of the claims about Summit League Bylaws. If it was all message-board speculation, that's fine. In any event, I tried to determine whether 1) there are Summit League bylaws addressing this situation; and 2) if such Bylaws exist, are they a matter of public record? I said I'd report back in. Like others who have commented, I could not readily locate Summit League bylaws. Now, I didn't spend a huge amount of time on this matter but I did make some contacts with people in the know. So, I have no idea whether there are any bylaws that may address this situation and may provide, for example, the hypothetical situation that star discussed. It stands to reason that the League must have bylaws and I think that's the main thrust of star's comments. But it seems apparent that there are no bylaws governing the football question. That point was succintly made a few posts ago, when Gothmog asked: Why would the Summit League need to do a Football feasibility study if its bylaws would require sponsorship of football anyway? There are some things that are certain. One thing we know is the Summit League has indicated it is studying the situation. The League has members with football and members without football. It is also clear that the council of Summit League Presidents has the authority to set the rules. It can create and it can delete any rules (bylaws) as it sees fit. Gothmog's question suggests the most likely case: there are no Summit League bylaws clearly addressing the situation discussed by star. Where do I send my two-cents?

Interesting take on my post but you give me too much credit. I'm an infrequent viewer of the UND message board (look to the left: I've made 39 posts on this message board since joining in December, 2007) and you should probably know that I am not opposed to UND joining the Summit League. I agree much speculation occurs on message boards. I'm not very interested in disputes between UND and NDSU. Sorry. Not my fight. I support SDSU. LOL. Again, you misinterpret my post and give me too much credit (think you can convince my wife and kids about giving me a little more credit from time to time? ). Sheesh, late last night I was wasting a little time on the internet, read the news about the Summit League moving forward with consideration of UND's application for admission and thought I'd take a look at the UND message board on that subject. I read your speculation about NDSU and SDSU football -- points I had not heard before and had a hard time believing. I do not know if the bylaws are public information. If they are, it seems a link could be posted so people can read them and reach their conclusions. I sent out an e-mail to a source, inquiring about whether the bylaws are available.

I've been following this thread and, in particular, star's speculation about Summit League Bylaws. It's interesting how star starts his analysis with "if the bylaws require...," follows the speculation with several conclusions that seem to take the speculation as fact, and then take some shots at NDSU. GeauxSioux noted that the comments about the bylaws are speculation at this point. I think he's right. Has anyone thought to ask for a copy of the bylaws or other League regulations that address these issues? I'm going to do that because I'm convinced from sources I've talked to, that there's no way NDSU and SDSU can be forced to leave the MVFC -- the Bison and Jacks may elect to do so (I doubt that will happen) but they can't be forced. But, my information may be based on guesswork, too. So, let's see if there are some bylaws, regulations or agreements among the League members that are on point and then the speculation can end. If I can obtain the information, I'll post it. I am certain SDSU is happy to be in the MVFC as is NDSU. I don't see either school joining a Summit football league -- unless, of course, they're bound by some bylaw, regulation or agreement.

The on-going debate about the Sioux name suggests our freedoms are alive and well -- we have more freedom today than at any other time in this country's history, to say what we want, hold the religious beliefs we want etc. So, keep on debating if you think it'll do some good. Your best chance at persuassion is to keep the debate factual and not based on emotion. To an outsider like me, the debate is entertaining -- I don't mean "funny" -- I mean entertaining in the sense that it holds one's attention.

Did SS.com take a position on the name issue?

I won't claim to know North Dakota law but my educated guess is the contract is a matter of public record. It would be interesting to get a copy and see how KFGO was able to avoid the remainder of the contract. Anyone with connections with the athletic department? Request a copy.

Ouch! Geez, linking anyone with Lakes is pretty bad stuff. I'm not very familiar with JBB's body of work but that goofy Lakes has mental problems. I'm not bombarding anyone with anything...was just being a smarta@# but it is entertaining reading. MplsBison (he's tedious and I get tired of reading his posts: over the past several months, he seems to have figured out hundreds of ways to say the same thing over and over and over and....) is like a kid sticking a stick into a beehive. By the way, I see lots of advantages to having UND in the Summit League. I'll keep reading. You keep entertaining.

Has anyone had the foresight to send a link to this message board (this thread in particular) to the Summit League offices so that Tom Douple can read the spirited debate? Heck, he'll probably send a memo to the Presidents of all the member schools, requesting an emergency meeting to issue apologies around and pay UND to join the League with the invite deemed to be retroactive to the same date USD was invited. Incidently, I've met Tom Douple and have gotten to know him a little bit. Tom was a top-notch 3,000 meter runner for LSU in the mid 70s (Chewie, not the right age for Vietnam War protests....I know you were being sarcastic). He's a good guy. Carry on...this is pretty entertaining reading for an outsider.

I intended in my post for the word "baggage" to broadly mean the fight over the nickname....not the nickname itself. I do not have an opinion on the nickname itself. I'm one who wouldn't mind having UND in the Summit League -- there are many benefits for travel etc. I don't consider myself in the camp of the PC-police. However, I see the pot constantly being stirred and its pretty easy for me to conclude that until the issue is resolved in some fashion -- any fashion -- probably okay for the Summit League to avoid the fray. I wouldn't equate the Summit League with universities generally (addressing your comment about universities encouraging different viewpoints and "controversial" topics -- long-time Summit member ORU may disagree) . The Summit League has a specific purpose and I think it's best described as entertainment through athletics. When I read the serious back and forth arguments on this thread, I'm not thinking much about entertainment. Last, I don't think the Fighting Sioux is the best nickname in college sports (Jackrabbits is the best nickname : ) ) but I do have a certain admiration for those who feel it is.

I suppose some opposed to the Fighting Sioux name are hung up on trying to be politically correct as some posters contend. But I think there are a lot of people who, while not paying great attention to the debate, do not understand all the nastiness expressed by many on the topic. The unresolved nastiness-- seems to be a good enough reason for some Summit League followers to hope that UND doesn't get an invite into the Summit League until UND can put this issue in the past. (Notice I do not say dump or retain the name -- I really could not care less about the name.) I just read the most recent three pages of posts in this thread. If UND can't figure it out -- why should the rest of the Summit League risk having to deal with your baggage? I'm all for UND joining the Summit League WITHOUT the baggage. I don't care how UND addresses the baggage--either work it out with the Tribe(s) or just dump the name--just leave the baggage behind. And then: welcome aboard. Serious question: I'm not a hockey fan but I wonder how much of the fight over whether to retain the name is influenced by hockey supporters. Would the discussion be different if UND did not have hockey? I have the sense the name would have been dumped a long time ago if you didn't have hockey -- but I readily admit I have no support for that conclusion.

Ouch! Saying "THEY are quite the classy bunch" is a real unfair linking of NDSU fans with the fool LakesBison, a guy who clearly has psychological problems. Note how the Texas Tech fan immediately and accurately sized up Lakes.

How about we leave SDSU out of this discussion? (We had our own LaCrosse game a few years ago.) The USF over UND win causes this Jackrabbit no embarassment. This is UND's problem.

We all know one cannot judge an entire fan base by what one reads on a fan message board. Even so, this board has a strong contingent of posters who look down on the Summit League to the point it sounds like those fans prefer to not get an invite to the Summit. It seems the Summit League is the best option for UND in the immediate future and people can make a reasoned argument that the Summit would benefit if UND (and USD) are added, thereby raising the stock of the Summit. Aren't some of you concerned that the Summit League will pick up some sense of the attitude of some UND fans who think the Summit League is beneath them? How does that help UND get into a conference?

Then my hat's off to you, a person of discriminating tastes (and good humor).

I hope you were kidding about your understanding of discrimination (by your words "get hammered for discrimination, I take it you mean the example you give is proscribed discrimination). If you were not kidding, you show a profound lack of understanding of some fairly basic concepts in our law. Certain actions are deemed in the law to be impermissible discrimination. Other forms of "discrimination" are not proscribed by our law. Refusal of one institution to play another institution based on a name is not unlawful, forbidden or anything else. It can and has happened; and, it looks like it's going to continue to happen in the future (UND will be proving that). If you want to call that discrimination, I suppose that's okay but your implication is that it is impermissible discrimination and if that IS what you intend to state, then you are wrong. Example: Let's say a person of Irish ancestry wants to buy my car which I have offered for sale in a newspaper ad. I refuse to sell to the Irishman because I think the Irish are shifty, good-for-nothing drunks who cannot be trusted and I am concerned he'll probably just pay with a check that bounces. Am I discriminating against the Irishman? I suppose so. Is that wrong? Not in the law (I suppose North Dakota could have passed a goofy law saying such private actions are impermissible discrimination but that would be an odd law.) (By the way, I am 3/4ths Irish and that's why I used an Irishman in my example.) I get tired of people talking about 'discrimination' or 'harassment' and other concepts, implying that every time someone looks cross-eyed at another person, there is some basis for a lawsuit. That's so far from the way things work...it concerns me we have a growing group of people in this country who should go back to junior high and take a course or two about some basic concepts underlying our system of government and laws. There are a lot of resources on the internet that talk about unlawful discrimination, protected classes and related topics. Do some reading. On a related note, KELO TV out of Sioux Falls, had a clip on this evening's news, about the Summit visit to USD. Commissioner Douple reiterated that UND had expressed interest in joining the Summit League but would not be considered so long as the name/mascot issue remains unresolved. Here's the link to KELO's website if you want to read the story: http://www.keloland.com/sports/NewsDetail7984.cfm?Id=0,79421

Just a few additional comments, building on Hammersmith's points: Gail Groth, Hatton, N.D.:

By 'catering to the minority', do you mean Native Americans or do you mean the population in general -- as in a minority want the name change? If its the later, I've always wondered if any actual scientific polling was done on the name issue. If so, what were the percentages in favor of retaining or rejecting the current nickname/mascot? Anyone? If no polling was done, is it possible a majority either 1. don't have a strong feeling or 2. are okay with a change?

I don't think that's what he said (and your "question" cannot be answered 'yes' or 'no') but am I reading your post correctly: are you suggesting UND needs NDSU's help? I don't think I've ever read that before.