Siouxtimestwo

Maybe we should play the Bison in hockey next year at the Metrodome! Way to go North Dakota, Grand Forks, and UND in particular. I wish I could get back more this coming year to ensure we keep the top spot.

30,000!!! Being D1 has no bearing on how many fans a team has. UND and NDSU have always had the same fan base and always will. That fan base is made up of people that attended the universities and people from North Dakota. People in Minnesota or anywhere else in the country aren't going to all of a sudden care about this game simply because we're now lesser D1 schools. I don't think ESPN is going to be sending its Gameday crew to the Metrodome to see two North Dakota schools play each other in someone else's dumpy stadium. Go back to your lab in the ag department and start mass producing whatever hybrid plant you've been creating and smoking. It obviously is highly effective.

What makes you think that the demand is going to be so much higher than it has been? Read the part of my post about the rivalry in the 80s and early 90s that you conveniently glossed over. When the rivalry was in its prime, both schools had smaller, in-state stadiums with better environments and tickets weren't that hard to get if you wanted them. What makes you think there will be overflow crowds lining up? When NDSU was winning national titles every other year my family as able to get tickets at Dakota Field. Do you really think that beating a 1-10 football team last year is all of a sudden going to cause 60,000 people to come out of the woodwork and flock from all corners of the country just to see a game in the HumptyDome? If this game ever resumes, it will be on a continuing basis, not a one or two game series. The games would be right back where they belong in 2010. UND and NDSU don't have 60,000 combined alumni in the cities, plus not all the alumni living in the Twin Cities would be attending, even if they did. There would be plenty of Grand Forks and Fargo residents willing to attend, but certainly not enough to fill up the Metrodome. I don't know if you've been to the Metrodome in the last 10 years, but it's not exactly a great stadium. If they had a new arena in Minneapolis, then, maybe, just maybe I could see the appeal of playing the game there to some fans, although it would still be a bad idea. I know NDSU fans are new in dealing with Gophers fans, but if this game was played there, not only would no one in Minnesota other than NDSU-UND alumni care, but we might as well change the names of our schools to the University of West Minnesota and West Minnesota State University. You've only dealt with them for 2 years, so trust me, while I appreciate your enthusiasm, it's a bad idea all around.

I know I'm attempting to speak for a number of people, which is never a good idea, so I'll just give you my thoughts on Joe and you guys let me know if you agree. I don't dislike Finley personally, although you should hear my wife, a die-hard UND fan, curse him. Joe is a physical presence on the ice, one whom I would agree has gotten better each year he's played here. It was a tough adjustment learning to play at the college level, especially with his size. Without getting too philosophical, Finley in a way represents the new definition of Sioux hockey and I think some fans don't like the new way we play. UND has had big, physical defensemen for a number of years, but they always seemed to have an attitude of aggression. For whatever reason, Joe is physical, but he just doesn't seem to have the nastiness that a Greene, for example, had. It always amuses me when other schools label us as dirty, because that is the polar opposite of what I've seen out of our teams under Hak. If anything, I think we play on our heels too much and are too soft. That doesn't mean I think Hakstol is a poor coach or should be replaced. He just has a different philosophy and wants to play a different style of play than Dean or Gino. That style has been highly successful, as evidenced by the Frozen Four trips, but it's not always pretty on the eyes, especially the slow starts. The loss to BC this year wasn't heartbreaking so much because of the score or the disappointment of not winning it all, but rather it was the fact that we got beat by the old Fighting Sioux. Slap an 80s or 90s Sioux jersey on that BC team and you wouldn't have been able to tell the difference. Those teams didn't win the title every year, nor should the Sioux be expected to now, but the style of play made it seem like they were working harder. This past year's Sioux team gave it everything they had, they were simply outclassed. However, our current style of play and our slow starts will always leave some fans wondering if the boys really are giving it their all since they're not flying up and down the ice like teams past have. Joe's play is typical of this. Of course he's working hard and doing his best. His draft status and his limited offensive ability are always going to be leave him open to criticism, whether fair or unfair. He's out there for one reason, to be an enforcer on defense. Our team philosophy is to stress defense and play it safe, so when a team skates circles around us, it's hard to stomach when we realize that could have been us 5 years ago. Genoway was brought up earlier, for good reason because he didn't play well. Genoway doesn't get criticized like Finley not only because he's a fan favorite, but also because he's a throwback player. When he gets burned and is out of position trying to make a play, it's no different than Finley getting skated past. No matter how it happens, it's a goal, but fans who yearn for the free-flowing offensive hockey of years past are willing to forgive a player for trying to create offense.

Although I'm obviously a UND fan, one half of my family is pure-blooded NDSU alumni, so I have followed the Bison football team throughout the years just as much, whether it was watching games at family gatherings, friendly ribbing back and forth, or attending games together. NDSU's teams in the 80s are easily the most dominant. They would destroy NDSU's and UND's teams today. They could have beaten their fair share of D1 teams, including half the Big 10. I think any Div. II fan over the age of 30 who argues this point is kidding themselves. Just remember, it was you who said that all that matters is national titles. Just having success for 10-15 years doesn't mean anything. I'm assuming in your definition of nothing you're including beating a 1-10 football team. Because of my family, I'll always be cheering for NDSU to be successful when they're not playing UND. North Dakota is too small a state to not root for itself. Trust me, once you leave North Dakota's borders there are very few people who care about UND vs. NDSU. I only make this point because UND was always portrayed as arrogant by NDSU fans. In the last couple of years, it seems the shoe is on the other foot, at least when it comes to the younger generation of fans. Judging from your screen name, the wording of your signature, and the fact you feel the need to rile things up on a UND message board, you seem to have a different attitude than the true NDSU fans I've gotten to know through the years. Just remember, it's been 18 years since NDSU accomplished anything on the gridiron, at least according to your definition. Most rational people know that statement isn't true, much the same as your first statement rings hollow. NDSU has had tremendous success, more than their own fans even expected. Enjoy your success for what it is. NDSU fans should have no reason to feel the need to hop onto Siouxsports just to make sure UND fans know it. Know there are UND fans whom are happy to see NDSU succeed at the next level. I know there are NDSU fans whom will be cheering for UND to have success, just as long as they're not beating the Bison. That's the way it should be. Talk to your fellow NDSU fans about what a great ride its been while the wave is still going strong, because you never know when it might come to a crashing halt. If you don't believe me, ask Rocky Hager or any NDSU fan who endured the Babich era.

I thought NDSU was never, ever, under any circumstances going to play UND again? Isn't that what NDSU fans have been spewing for the past 5 years? Now all of a sudden you want to renew the rivalry in the biggest dump of a sporting venue ever created? If the Fargodome and the Alerus Center aren't good enough stadiums to support these games, then have them played at Dakota Field and Memorial Stadium. That would draw interest from alumni. I don't know how old some of you are, but the games played at these two stadiums were a fantastic experience and tickets weren't that difficult to come by and both teams were just as good as they are now. Tony Satter and Chris Simdorn would have rushed for 500 yards and Kleinsasser would have had 250 yards receiving against the 2007 Gophers. You guys are making it sound like tickets for this DumpDome game will be going for $10,000 apiece outside the stadium! 60,000 people! I think you're overlooking the fact that both schools fudge their attendance numbers. Even when a game is sold out, there are plenty of empty seats and that's with the games in North Dakota. I'm an alumni who no longer lives in North Dakota. One of the nice things about coming back for UND sporting events is coming home to see my family and friends and revisit the campus. I'm sure the same is true for most other UND and NDSU fans alike. If you're unwilling to drive 3 hours to see the Bison play, then it's your loss. There are plenty of NDSU and UND alums living in Minnesota who are willing to drive to Fargo or Grand Forks to see their schools play. If you think the game should be played in Minneapolis just so you can get drunk and pop your collar on First Avenue after the game, then you really don't deserve to see it anyways. BTW, concerning playing games outside the state in order to appease the alumni, UND has nearly as many alumni living in Denver as in Minneapolis. Why not play the game at Invesco in a real, outdoor footbal stadium? In fact, why stop there? My wife and I are UND alumni living in Michigan. If you're going to throw out gigantic attendance numbers, why not go for 108,000 and play the game in the Big House? Why should we have to suffer the indignity of coming home to North Dakota of all places to watch the University of North Dakota and North Dakota State University play a football game?

To answer the original question, no, I don't own a hand gun. My uncle owns many, many guns, including some handguns that I've shot before at the family farm back in North Dakota. Now that I've got that out of the way, I read this article yesterday on CNN.com that I think pertains to the conversation. (I know that using data gathered scientifically from a reliable media source is an irrational thing do to on these boards and could potentially lead to my banning, but I'll take that chance. ) I'll editorialize the numbers from the study a little bit, partially to keep my profile from being deleted, and say that some of the suicides could be murder/suicides. The article doesn't tell us whether or not murder/suicides were included in the suicide rate, the murder rate, both, or excluded altogether. Since someone else brought up smoking, I, as a non-smoker, have a greater chance of dying from lung cancer as a result of second-hand smoke than I do of dying from gunshot wounds. If you are sitting next to someone who owns a gun, the chances are remote that he or she will end up shooting you. If you are sitting next to someone who is smoking, you are almost guaranteed to inhale harmful chemicals, so anyone worried about safety while smoking two packs a day is someone who can't be taken seriously.

After reading this quote from Mr. Johnson, all I can say is have fun in the NAIA. You're really moving up in the world. I'm sure you'll get a whole lot of support from the 25 people in attendance who came to watch last year's high school JV team! Hopefully you'll build up the program and have enough success that your alma mater, the basketball powerhouse known as Central College, will offer you their head coaching position. Then you can truly take your place among the greats of the game of basketball.

I totally agree. One side of my family is pro-NDSU, yet they didn't disown me when I chose to attend UND. It was in my best academic interests to attend UND, which is not a knock on NDSU, just pointing out they have different academic strengths as universities. The number of NDSU fans who are jerks is directly proportional to the number of UND fans that are jerks, a very small percentage. The vast majority of the fans are the exact same kind of quality people with different shades of green in their closet. Having lived outside of North Dakota, the amount of time spent on this topic since NDSU went D1 makes us look like the Hatfield & McCoys, a bunch of hicks fighting over nothing. No one outside of NDSU or UND fans care about this game, and evidently, our own schools don't even care, or else they would've continued playing each other. How's this for an idea: UND and NDSU are both great football programs! The rivalry is comatose. That's not to say it can't be renewed, but what makes Michigan-Ohio St., Florida-Florida St., Auburn-Alabama, etc. such great rivalries is they play every year no matter what. UND and NDSU no longer have that. We can argue till we are blue in the face, yet nothing will be resolved, except maybe the revelation of individual character. UND and NDSU fans alike have made valid points concerning the amount of success each program has had, but there is no amount of evidence that can be gathered to determine which team has been better since 2003. The only evidence that can speak to that must be found on a scoreboard. Until then, we'll just have to stick to celebrating our own victories, rather than trying to stack them up against our mythical rivals.

Tell that to your AD.

I would have to agree with this statement. I think it's a wonderful idea to try and get Grand Forks to be one of the finalists for Titletown, but basically the only titles that are going to hold any weight are UND's hockey titles and it's football championship. Individual titles won by UND athletes or titles won by high schools won't carry any weight. Neither will prominent alumni. That said, it certainly doesn't hurt to try.

Nothing personal against you. It's just the observation you made about Green Bay's lack of success is the exact same thing NDSU fans would say to Sioux fans about our lack of titles. For years, no matter what the final score of the Sioux-Bison football game was or what UND's record was, it was always, "How many rings you got?" Even now that we have finally won a title, it's, how would you say it, 1 title in the last 113 years. Your argument against the success of the Packers franchise sounds uncannily similar to the reasoning NDSU fans have used for years about how worthless our football program at UND is, that's all.

Per capita, I have no idea what the ratios would be. I'm just saying, if we're going to hypothetically take the title (pun intended) away from Green Bay simply based on championships, then New York is hands down the winner. I doubt whomever coined the phrase "Titletown" had Green Bay's population in mind. IMO, this is a fruitless attempt by ESPN anyways. I highly doubt any sports city other than Green Bay will go by the name "Titletown" in the national media, no matter what the results are. It was a nickname given many years ago, so talking about how many titles the team has won now is irrelevant. There have been many players whom have surpasses Bob Cousy's ability and ball-handling skills, yet none have been dubbed "The Houdini of the Hardwood". Or to use a hockey reference, if someone breaks all of Gretzky's records, I doubt they will called "The Great One", nor will Gretzky have to surrender his nickname.

You don't happen to be a Bison football fan by any chance do you? I swear I've heard what you just said a million times in my life.

If we're going to turn this into a thread about what city really should be Titletown, it will hands down be New York City. No other place even approaches their championships and success.

I hope you're right. I think Duncan had a little less of an impact this year than last. Whether that had to do with more teams aware of him after winning the Hobey or with the departure of Toews from his line is up to each individual. It certainly had nothing to do with Duncan's ability or work ethic. Regardless, I think Duncan's production could potentially slide next year either due to the fact that he'll get even more attention being the team's clear #1 guy next year or due to the fact he's going to have a less talented player centering his line than this past year. Duncan is amazing at what he does, but he is not the type of player who is going to make plays single-handedly against WCHA defenses on a consistent basis. He's more of a finisher than a playmaker, IMO, which is not meant to be a knock on his game, just an observation. At least he can find net, which is more than a lot of our forwards can say. As far the talent coming in and players developing, wasn't that same thing supposed to happen this year as well? Does anyone else remember reading pre-season articles in which discussion of the top line in college hockey automatically took Duncan & Oshie's line out of the equation? Well, did we ever figure out who made up that line besides those two? How many different line combinations did we have this year? We could never even establish a top line because no one seemed to be able to step up and claim it. I could easily see a very good top line next year assuming Duncan, VV, & Kozek come back, but after that what do we have left? Martens? Miller? Davidson? Forney? Frattin? Zajac? Trupp will be good and I'm going to assume at least one of the freshmen can be next year's version of Trupp, but I wouldn't expect too much right away. I guess maybe that's a good thing. The best teams in college hockey nowadays seem to stink it up for 3 months and then catch fire at the end. Maybe I should be encouraged that we'll be so young next year.

Back on topic, where is our scoring going to come from next year. It seems most people agree we need faster, more skilled players in order to bring home a championship. Where are those players going to develop on our roster? I gave my analysis earlier and I didn't see where we were going to get a boost in goals. If anything, I think we'll take a dip in scoring. We're going to have early departures for sure, so that means that we might as well forget about competing before January 1, 2009, which is evidently fine with everyone on this board, since when, back in December, I stated I'm sick of the poor starts that have seemingly become the new definition of Fighting Sioux hockey and was subsequently lambasted by everyone for being a poor fan who doesn't support the team. So, I ask again, where is the scoring going to come from. Someone mentioned Martens scoring 30 goals next season. What makes you say that? Are the new recruits going to be the spark we need? I'm curious to know what you guys and gals think.

Sorry, free tuition doesn't put money in your pocket like an NHL contract does, which is what might entice a player to leave. You're paying back student loans, so I'm assuming your earned your degree and are currently working in your chosen profession. If the biggest employer in your field came up to you after your sophomore year and offered you a job, would you have turned it down? Playing hockey at UND is a unique experience that many players wouldn't trade for anything, but not all players feel this way. In fact, many former players have stated that they didn't realize how lucky they were to play at UND until after they left, not because they were treated badly or disliked their experience, but because 18, 19, & 20 year olds don't always see things as clearly as they do when they are 40. I also think that we as fans sometimes have to realize that UND hockey might mean more to us than some of the players. I think that's true of any fanbase. It all depends on what matters most to Chris or any of the other underclassmen, which neither you nor I can speak to. That's why I'm saying it's possible he could be gone next year. If you're 100% certain that he is coming back, then I hope you're right, but neither of us know. That's why it's called speculation.

I'm not saying he should leave, but if he gets offered a contract, I could see him deciding to leave. I don't know if you've been following college hockey this season, but there seems to be an increase in tension between NHL teams and college programs. If the Oilers decide they'd rather see one of their draft picks develop in the minors rather than get mugged every single night due to the fact he'll be one of about only 4 players on our team capable of scoring a goal next year, I think there's a possibility he would leave. I find it funny how every time anyone says anything negative about a player's game, they are attacked by the morality police for picking on kids, yet when one talks about players leaving college and deciding they'd rather get paid for doing the same thing they are currently doing for free, we are supposed to talk about these same kids as if they were sage, old wisemen who can see all ends and would never make an ill decision. So let's decide right now, so I know exactly what I'm allowed to say on these board and what I'm not; are UND hockey players little kids who cry at the first sound of criticism or are they the forever unerring athletes who always make the right decisions and never make a mistake on or off the ice?

Of this group of returning forwards, I think it's very likely at least 1 of Duncan, VV, Kozek leaves, possibly 2. For those more knowledgeable about hockey development, where do you think the increased scoring going to come from? I think VV and Kozek, if they stay, will be better next year. Duncan will be Duncan, but losing Oshie as a linemate will almost certainly have an effect on him. That's why, IMO, VV coming back is so important because he's the only other player on this year's team who could even do a slight Oshie impression. Maybe the fact I never played hockey is making me miss something, but I just don't see much in Martens or Miller. I think if you pulled two guys who could skate from the crowd, give them a #8 & #14 jersey, few would notice. Maybe Zajac can make a jump, but that's based more on his last name than his play. If Forney ever scores a goal for the Sioux, I think we have to consider it a bonus and not something to expect. With all he's gone through, I could see him opting for a change of scenery. I don't know enough about Davidson. Is he a skater or is yet another guy who can only go into the corners and bang? Trupp should be a stud with another year. Same for Frattin. I know absolutely zero about the recruits, but I just hope people don't thrust too many unrealistic expectations on Toews because of his brother. Will the cumulative effect of these 5 new guys be enough to give us a boost? Losing Chorney defensively hurts our scoring punch as well. I'm sure Eidness & Walski will be fine, but I doubt they match JPL's regular season stats in net. And then of course there is the most important thing of all: NO TJ OSHIE! Every single player who wore a Sioux jersey, with the possible exception of JPL & Walski, was a more effective player by having Oshie was a teammate. He made his linemates better by his play, but he also made things easier for guys on other lines because he always drew the other teams best and they were gunning for #7 at all times. He will be missed immensely! Just to play devils advocate with myself, maybe other guys will step up offensively and realize they can't simply wait for Oshie's line to score 3-4 goals a game. These kids obviously have talent or else they wouldn't be playing for the Sioux. And of course, I've left out one of the most important thing that might allow us to improve: our coaching staff. This year's Sioux team was very flawed, yet they still made the Frozen Four. In Hak we trust. He's definitely gonna earn his pay next year.

I could easily see VV leaving after this year. If he does come back, he's more than likely going to have to deal with what Oshie did this season, centering the top line, getting mugged all season, having all the scoring pressure thrust upon himself and his linemates, etc. I wouldn't blame him if he decided the pro route was worth the money if offered.

Exactly. There have been plenty of terrible calls in all sports throughout the years. Great teams overcome these things. Good, but not great teams get to go home and cry about all off-season. Great teams put themselves in positions where one bad call wont' affect the outcome. For crying out loud, we were down 6-0, including one BC shortie! Does anyone honestly believe the refs had anything to do with that? This is 4 straight years where we simply weren't good enough. I have a hard time believing that the refs were the reason we didn't win the title each of the past 4 years. I also have a hard time believing that the refs are the reason we can't win games against mediocre teams before Christmas, either. If we had better depth on our 3rd and 4th lines and not a bunch of grinders who can do nothing but talk trash to the BC bench when they're kicking our butts, teams wouldn't be able to throw 5 straight body checks on Oshie every time he touches the puck. Another thing we can do to keep teams from playing us physical is to be more aggressive on our power play. When we want it to be, our power play can be unstoppable. Half the time, all we do is pass it back and forth from point to point or dump and chase and kill the penalty ourselves. We can either whine about refs for the next 10 years or else we can decide to take the necessary measures ourselves, because there is nothing UND's players or coaches can do about officiating.

It is a very valid comparison. Like Redwing said, it is just a recent development that teams that actually recruit more than 4-5 designated skaters on their teams have killed us. The WCHA has been a historically dominant league, but the style of play was a lot different when the conference won the majority of those titles. Back then, WCHA teams could also throw a whole lineup of skilled, physical hockey players out on the ice. I just hate the roles that everyone has on these recent teams. What happened to the days when a hockey player could be physical and fast? Why does it have to be one or the other? I'm not saying we should expect a team full of 50 point scorers, but at least have the middle third of our stat sheet be a threat on the ice. After the first couple forwards, the rest garnered no respect from opposing teams. It gets old watching teams hang all over the Oshies, Parises, Toewses, and Bochenskis, but think about why other teams can get away with it. It has a lot more to do with the skill level of some of their teammates than it does with the refs. The refs can do more to deter that stuff, but can our program control the refs? No, but we can control how our forwards play. Make the other teams have to respect more than 3 players on our team and things will open up. If we're going to blame everything on the refs and rip other conferences, we had damn sure better make sure we are playing flawless hockey.

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile.

I agree, this team was carried all year by JPL and Oshie. I think Hak deserves credit for getting this team to the Frozen Four. That said, I am a little worried about our lack of scoring. It sure as hell isn't going to get better next year. The only thing I'm sick and tired of as a long time fan, is this staffs complacency and acceptance of non-skill players. It's a given that this team is going get off to a terrible start to the season and sleepwalk through games. You can get away with that to a point, but I think the last 4 years have proven you can't win a title that way. When BC brought the puck into the zone against us tonight, I was always worried that I was about to witness another goal, no matter who has on the ice for them. Watching UND this year, we could have a 3 on 0 and I wouldn't even get excited unless Oshie, Duncan, VV, Kozek, or Trupp was on the ice. I've seen enough of these stiffs who stumble over their own skates trying to put a puck on net. And it's not just UND. It's the rest of the WCHA as well. We can brag(rightfully so) about how we are the best hockey conference in the country, but we also play the ugliest style of hockey anywhere in the country. The refs are a part of that, but so are the coaches who are so enamored with non-skilled, all physical players. We either need to make up our mind if we're going to be a trap-style defensive team like Wisconsin, or we need to higher our expectations for our forwards.