Chewey

Long odds for doing anything legally. If a federal court were to invalidate the policy outright because the NCAA did not follow their own rules or if the 8th Circuit were to remand the matter for further factual findings, the NCAA may adjust its take. The chances are extremely slim there. The school's been there and done that and they're not going to be willing to go that route again, I think. It would be nice if they adopted the nickname with the NCAA's post-court adjusted "blessing" but that would be nothing short of an astounding twist. SL has been discriminated against and still is being discriminated against, along with those at SR. I think it's probably more likely that former adversaries join forces to protest the continued use of NA imagery at the Ralph but for different reasons. That's been "fixed" with the NCAA though so UND is probably safe (for now) because it shares the same theme of hypocrisy with the NCAA on that issue. The modified agreement to go easy on the Ralph was in the works for some time but the NCAA required UND to show "good faith" and jump on board, stop fighting the NCAA and betray the vast majority of native americans who supported the nickname.

Irrespective of the chances for success, it's not a "pathetic circus" to those Native Americans who have been wronged by the consummate duplicity and racism of the NCAA and expedient disassociation by UND. To the Native Americans who see through and who do not tolerate either affected "concern" regarding Native American traditions and customs or self-serving, insincere protestations about needing to "preserve the rich history of the Fighting Sioux nickname and logo", it's not a joke. It's not a joke to Bennett Brien. To Byron Dorgan (a true exemplar of fidelity and guilelessness who had the pomposity to lecture the Indians and was told to pound sand), Jody Hodgson and Tim O'Keefe, who profess that the nickname and logo represent more than just the school's teams but who really just want to save a building and who want the same Native American's they've insulted to get on board with the arrangement they already have with the NCAA so that everything looks good, it's probably a joke. The whole charade has, amazingly, resulted in unity among both the pro-nickname and anti-nickname Native Americans though. None of them wants continued usage of the imagery. The antis never did and the pros now don't because they see all of the affected and transparent claims of "respect" for what they were and are. The "pathetic circus" is how UND has managed to add the 95% of NA's with whom it was previously allied to the implacable 5% with whom it was at odds. None of that matters because the NCAA has been placated and there's "attaboy" slaps on the back and affirmations a plenty that this or that person's a "consummate professional" when in reality those same parties really have just reinforced and perpetuated racism and further disrespected the traditions, culture and customs they claimed to honor. The "pathetic circus" is the writhing and agitated progression of justifications and rationalizations not only by the NCAA to inflict its monopolistic authority upon one of its members under the guise of eradicating "racism" but also by UND to save $$$$ under the guise of "respect for tradition, history and native customs." Quite a cynical valediction by UND and the Alumni Association with respect to something that's been "loved" and "cherished" for 82 years. Everything will be better though with the wall of history/tradition idea, or whatever, that was proposed for the REA.

It does matter. That's what I mean by remanded for "further factual findings." Namely, the facts to be determined at the district court level would be whether it was already granted in 1969 as many on SR, except RHHIT and JTA and their cohorts, contend.

If SL wins and gets the matter remanded, there may or may not be the big "NCAA will sanction us" fear that was used earlier. The well promoted fear factor is the reason why people voted the way they did. If SL wins and there's no longer a basis to sanction, that's a game changer. Of course, it's a big IF that SL will win. Of course, the fact that the matter even got a date for oral argument is a positive because the 8th Circuit does not have to provide one and can just decide the matter on the briefs that have been filed. The NCAA and its legal team are arrogance personified.

Yep. Nickname is gone and U of MN and U of W are really busting down the doors to schedule UND right? Where are they now? Why not schedule BU and BC, Northeastern, Maine, etc. instead of them anyway? U of MN and U of W don't even compare talent-wise. I bet the B-10 hockey conference will not be what they all think it will be. Programs that were barely making it before (Mankato, Bowling Green, etc.) will have a real struggle now. Mike Hastings will help Mankato but Mankato is going to need a lot more than him to get into the upper echelon of teams/programs

Great. That's just the thing - a weather phenomenon. Outstanding.

Good for them. The fact that this shirt was created does not mean that the creators agree with what happened. The shirt is not "controversial" unless one presumes otherwise, as I am sure the author of the article probably did. The shirt simply calls a thug a thug; nothing more. Glad other people are getting the message that the NCAA needs to be broken up and splintered. Way too much economic power concentrated in the hands of a few bed-wetting elitists but weenies like ND's Congressional delegation allow it. Where can I buy one of these? Still waiting for the NCAA and its corporate affiliates to disgorge all profits made off of PSU from 1998 through 2011/12. No one should profit from fruit of the poisonous tree - that's just a basic tenet of good morality, isn't it?

They will have the signatures.

It should be left in the alumni association's hands. Very disappointing in terms of establishing and maintaining solidarity for UND's Fighting Sioux nickname and even more disappointing when it came to failing to pressure ND's Congressional delegation but at least I have marginal faith that they would not allow a completely asinine and stupid nickname to be adopted. Word has it that it will be decided by only a few though there may be some show put on signifying otherwise. If it's left up to Kelley, the student body and faculty senates or, God forbid, the BRIDGES racists it will be time to pretend to get excited for some stupid weather phenomenon or some inane colour combined with a bird of prey (you know, completely original stuff) or some feeling or emotion (like the Fighting Spirit) or some description of a part of nature (like the Wild). If JTA and RHHIT are ok with Roughriders, they'll be ok with Cavalry. They should even be more comfortable with Cavalry since the Sioux, Cheyenne, etc kicked the living !@#$ out of Custer's 7th and Captain Fetterman with the Battle of the Hundred Slain.

Right. So, the new nickname will be "North Dakota." The name of a state can be a nickname and, at least for now, names of states are safe.

I'd go with Roughnecks. No one's using it so it's presumably unique. Wildcatters is good too but Roughnecks sounds tougher.

Wildcatters or Roughnecks would be best. UND is representative of the whole state and not just the Eastern part of the state so "Roughnecks" would be entirely appropriate. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think that one's in use. Maybe it is in use in Wyoming or Texas?

I would bet that they're going to use "the Fighting Spirit" nickname. Totally lame.

Bruce was my high school hockey coach from 1982-1986. He was a great guy and I enjoyed playing for him. Very sad. RIP Oly.

And Rough Riders was put out there by Jesse Taken Alive and Phil Jackson. Thus that side of the aisle regarding the old moniker has given their imprimateur. For now. I bet there's a couple people out there just being trained to see how offensive Rough Riders would be. There's always going to be another JTA. Perhaps we should ask the TC to vote on that or have another pipe ceremony?

Yes, but that would show disrespect and insensitivity to the victims of Tsunamis in Japan. Sorry. I like it too but it will not fly.

Yes, but I don't think that will matter in the end. I would be that the Alumni Association and the UND Admin will think they've been through too much and just choose a "safe" name like the "Flames" or the "Fighting Spirit" or something. Get ready for a Marquette-ish or Dartmouth-ish experience for the next couple of generations.

That will be discriminatory and not deemed "inclusive." Does anyone think that the BRIDGES nuts could "rally around" such a nickname? The new nickname will be chosen only by a few and it will be an idiotic nickname -- you can take both of those things to the bank.

Because it's unique and EGF is in MN and GF could just as well be and because one of UND's big concerns should be to choose a new nickname that is not stupid or bland or idiotic. "North Stars" is not close to the "Fighting Sioux" but it is, at least, a reasonable substitute. Just to be realistic, as much of the conversation has toiled around economic power and trademarks and the like, the owner of the Dallas Stars is the "L'Etoil du Nord" and Minnesota does not even enter into the equation; I am sure many remember that quite well from 1993. "L'Etoil du Nord" may be on the state flag, much like the indian imagery on ND Highway Patrol squad cars, but the real issue is who owns the trademark.

How much would it cost to purchase the "North Stars" nickname and logo? "North Dakota North Stars" sounds cool and the colours are already there. Pony up some oil dough and buy it as opposed to coming up with something entirely bland and stupid.

It was and is a religious ceremony. Native Americans do not pull out the pipe "just for show." Look at the history behind Pipestone, MN for a primer. By analogy, anyone can choose to violate any one of the Ten Commandments. Just because one or chooses to do so does not make the choice "right" or make the particular commandment any less valid or sacred. The Pope could disregard any part of Catholic orthodoxy, as established through the Magisterium, but that would not make the Pope's choice right or valid. To say that the Tribal Council has not done this or that only demonstrates an acceptance of such a counterfeit position. There is a lot more spirituality in the Native American tradition than in the European tradition. Anything done with the Pipe has considerable spiritual significance and is permanent and binding. If JTA and 7 or 8 others of his ilk on the SR tribal council choose not to respect that, they may do so but that does not mean that what they are doing is valid. Anything done pursuant to the Pipe constitutes a truism for time immemorial, supposedly.

That is pretty funny.

Well, you have to admit that using that terminology in the context you were using it was wrong. When he divided his forces and got justifiably whacked by Sioux, Cheyenne, etc., he was a Lieutenant Colonel. And, Custer did not have convictions except to stoke his own ego and do things that would vault him one day into politics and sustain his name for posterity -- a consummate egoist. Bad example for your point, PCM. One of Custer's famous quotes from his writings is that he did not want to be learned, did not want to be wise, did not necessarily want to be wealthy but he wanted to be "great." That says it all. He ultimately had aspirations to be the Democratic nominee to run against Grant, I believe, for President. Watchmaker and his side have convictions and they stuck to them and did not let people ignore them. They are advocates, though I believe strongly that their viewpoint on this issue was and is flawed. They, though small in number (from my perspective but they may disagree) got attention and they were persistent. Much more than I can say for the other side, undoubtedly much more numerous but filled with expedient defectors all still claiming to honor traditions and customs and history. Consider the "cost" of retaining the nickname as juxtaposed against the "cost" of removing the Sioux imagery in light of the claims of honor in each context. Could anything be more transparent? The Alumni Association, SBoHE, etc. dropped the ball and bascially let Hoeven, Conrad, Dorgan, Pomeroy and Berg off the hook. You worked for Dorgan, if memory serves me correctly from your statements here. Why didn't you and the Alumni Association, SBoHE call out the members of Congress? If as much energy, even at the 11th hour, had been put to doing that as opposed to engaging in fear mongering and duplicity, perhaps we would not have had to retire it at all.

SL vote. And, the fact that many on SR just probably stayed home and have said "Fork 'em" - essentially what Antoine American Horse said. A 250K propaganda effort is an effective tool.

What I really object to is that the Alumni Association and Jody Hodgson and members of the alumni/ae did not vocalize publicly and forcefully their concerns with Hoeven, Conrad, etc. They should have made it known that the NCAA meddling was unacceptable and should have demanded that they intercede, especially after the 17,000 strong referral vote. Would Hoeven and Conrad say "no" to a formal public demand by such a contingent? No. They did, however, have no problem ignoring letters from the CUR and from the Tribal Council of SL and from the Tribal Chairman of SL himself.