Teeder11

It's neither here nor there, but thought I would set the record straight as to what happened. It didn't break in the Forum. It was broke by the Associated Press (Dave Kolpak) in Fargo. It was reprinted in the Fargo Forum moments before it was online in the Herald. I saw it first in the Herald. My guess is that the Herald had the news too (since it was a simple one-source statement from Peter Johnson, the school spokesman) and was waiting until after DAZ's 5 and 6 p.m. show to put it on its Web site, knowing that DAZ monitors the Herald Web site all day long. But once AP reported it, there was no need to save it any longer. The news was out.

Chewey: Touche, Good points. Thank you, bud. But, one thing, I know all of the "rag" writers you allude to personally, from Virg Foss on up, and they are as big a of Fighting Sioux fans as you and me and would never want the name changed -- go figure. I think sometimes too much is read into things... and we see what we want to see or we start believing the myth rather than the truth... who knows. But again, great points. I will try to wise up. You got to admit, though, great and interesting stuff in the paper today... ie. Northwood angels and photos galore, dead city councilman, Pauslen vs. Kupchella, EGF taxes debate, Devils Lake outlet rebuttal, Danny Mattson, etc. etc. etc. We may hate it, but we sure like to read it....it gets our hearts pumping and our blood boiling. What would anyone of us do if we didn't hate our hometown rags?.... I mean it's the American way, er, in my case, the Canadian way. Can't wait to get back down there to enjoy a Sioux football or hockey game this fall. Sincerely, Fred Canmore, Alberta UND Class or '96

Strange, no snide comments about how the GF Herald is so against the nickname and how their UND beat writers have to sign in blood to write only stories that are against the nickname. Oh jeez, what was I thinking, of course, the story is actually a positive for the pro-nickname army. Duh.

Yeah, a fool is born every minute. . Listen. Time out a minute. I love the Fighting Sioux nickname as much as most on this board... I am a die-hard fan and would never want the name changed -- ever! That said. A little balance is sometimes needed on here where a lot of piling on takes place amid the saftey of anonymity. Case in point -- When I was a student at UND in mid 1990s, I became good friends with a lot of the media in town. I dealt a lot with the Dakota Student on campus, I had an internship with the Herald and did some work with DAZ. My experiences were warm with all and are treasured to this day. I became very good friends with some of these people. Some who get trashed on here a lot for being biased are actually big Sioux fans and would never want the name changed. One of my best friends still writes for the paper and used to actually be a UND beat writer. He's also one of the biggest Sioux fans I know apart from me. He told me once, while we were attending a Sioux hockey game a few years ago (not in the Herald box), that he got criticized from both sides of the nickname issue all the time, and that he thought that meant he was being as balanced as he could and not favoring one side over the other. He said it was hard to report the news, because inevitably one side would not be happy. He just shook his head and wondered if the the nickname proponents could wrap their brains around the fact that, unbeknownst to them, he was rubbing elbows with them and cheering as loud as them, screaming Go Sioux, at the games. I noticed some editorial licenses taken in today's story by Joseph Mark, some of them have already been pointed out on this board. But, frankly, and again, as a pro-nickname guy, I don't think those particular instances were that aggregious when compared to the entire issue that the writer was trying to get across. I think instead of assassinating the messenger, in this case, we should be taking our displeasure out on Myra Pearson and David Gipp for not wanting to address the issue again. In my opinion, that is gutless and a diservice to the people in which they serve. I have seen similar editorial licencing used on Web sites and publications that people on here would regard as nickname friendly, but again, these were not a great concern when tested against the more important points of the nickname issue as a whole. I would exclude the work done on U.S. College Hockey Online by their local writer, Patrick C. Miller. That stuff seems to always be impeccably well done and well sourced. That's a credit to him to churn that stuff out on deadline day in and day out. But, in these cases, I seldom see anyone on here point out minor glossing over of simple facts. However, I would not expect it nor call for it, either. It's all about perspective, I guess. Ok. Have at it. Just remember -- I am one of you. Fred UND alumnus Canmore, Alberta

Of course he did. Just like Kevin Fee did, just like Steve Foss did, just like Ian Swanson did, just like Mike Benedict did, just like Dave Dodds did, etc.... don't you know, it's a prereq to get the prized "UND beat" you have to be against the name. It's that simple.

Chewey: Good points. I stand corrected. Fred

Oh Scott So you're telling us that if you would have wrote the story you would have been soooo much more objective and fair to all sides involved. You secretly love the Hurled becaused it keeps giving you fresh things to blog about without even trying. God Bless the Fighting Sioux Frederick W. Canmore, Alb.

And as "ussual," you can't spell very well. Go Fighting Sioux!

I love the Herald....always have. It's a fine local newspaper. The Forum is good, too. Two great papers owned by the same company on bookends of the Valley, Forum Comm. sure knows a good deal when it sees one and is a shrewd investor.

IMHO, one answer to this whole thread is that the Herald reporter who started covering this issue early on has been deployed with the National Guard to serve in Iraq for the next 15 months. Other reporters or editors must not have the knowledge or interest to pick up where he left off. And their sports dept. is just plain too lazy, too short staffed and too close to UND sources to write anything about it. Sad but true.

You are right. The relationship between the Grand Forks paper and UND is close knit. That happens everywhere beat reporters get intertwined with faculty, coaches and administrators. I must say though, when it comes to sports, the Herald reporters, with combined experience of 90 years (even without Virg Foss), do seem to be able to identify an issue that needs closer scrutiny and a critical eye at UND than ones that are more trivial. That doesn't mean they don't falter from time to time. On balance, the paper has taken UND to task on a number of controversial issues, the nickname and logo (editorial board) being tops on the list. The Herald does lack a McFeely-type columnist, though. Someone who can shake things up locally and not mind the public flack that would come with it. The closest thing the Herald has to that is Kevin Fee, sports editor, who tends to take on more critical stories about UND, so that the beat reporters don't get the silent treatment from their sources.

Um... just a little reality infusion here. The Herald routinely carries a mid 20 percent profit margin (revenue over expenses). The current profit margin is 24 percent, that's pretty good outside of Wall Street, where corporate hunger for more, more, more will stop at nothing to diminish a newspaper's quality for better dividends. I don't blame them; it just doesn't jibe well with journalism traditions. The Herald carried a helluva debt load after the flood, but has since overcome that, and has posted the profits that Knight Ridder demanded of it. They did this by cutting hard at every level. But to say the paper is a money loser is just plain ignorant.

The Herald, I think, no, I mean, the nicknmae, or, maybe, UNDIA.... Oh hell, I don't know.

Good points

No problem, PCM. Thanks for clarifiation. I don't mean to sound like an ass. Just like to quash misconception about are local "rag." I know the people that work there. That is why it's easy for me to get to the bottom of things. Often times, rumor and conspiracy theories about the paper are more fun and exciting then the truth.

Those stories usually appear later in the day. Or if they don't it's a computer glitch that is not intended, according to Tom Dutcher, the Herald Web guy. He said every morning at about 7 a.m he does an inventory to make sure all of the loca and regional and state and national stories got online. If he finds any that aren't there that are supposed to be, he gets it up. The Herald web site is a template used by all Knight Ridder papers, and sometimes that makes things difficult. The Herald is at the mercy of a central Knight Ridder computer network office in Witchita or St. Paul, I cant remember which. So, yes, they are all supposed to be there, and they usually are. Sometimes they are not, but that is not intended. Your turn.

The editorial content that is the topic at hand is all there, that is the stuff that reporters get paid to write -- is all there.

Boy, you write a lot, but you never say anything! Oh, I get it now. God! I am so slow, you were going after GK the whole time. My bad. Just had to decode you encryption first. Thanks.

Like I said, you can get the Herald for the same price online that it takes to access this Web site. In my opinion, and though people don't want to admit it because it's more fun to bash the quality of the paper, the reason people cancel has more to do with the fact they can read it for basically free online now. Good. I was hoping you would say that the paper was held to a higher standard. That's a first on this message board. Just a query, but I wonder if DAZ would have led off its news cast, had they known about the UNDIA meeting, would they receive the same criticism. Or do their shiny smiling airhead faces make them a nonfactor. You'd think some of them get paid to work on this board, the way they are alway on here day and night 24/7. But I can see why they do it, today is my day off, and I am having a blast.

Wow. Where do I start. This is great, I must say. Let's take Patrick on first, Ok, just talked to Tran, the reporter who was at the meeting. He said UNDIA did not contact the Herald. Someone in the advertising department who must look at this message board notified the newsroom. So, that shatters that whole thing about UNDIA seeking pub, even though they probably weren't dissappointed in it. GK, was the one seeking pub, and he did that on here, as I understand it, not with the Herald. Tran had no idea what he was getting into and he had no preconceived notions. He's basically the city hall reporter. Talked to Monique Vondall, too, the faculty adviser for UNDIA.. She said that the Herald called her and asked about the meetingm, when it was to be held and whether it was open to the public. Sounds like just plain old fashioned proactive journalism got this in Herald, and not some media blitz by the UNDIA officers. Point number 2, for Patrick: I never went to J-school. I am not a journalist. But that is probably plainly obvious to you and other media professionals. Hockey Mom: I must say I love your posts, and they are always perfect. I tend to be in a bit of a hurry when I am writing posts, as I am doing half dozen other things at the same time. Didn't take time to fact check and spell check, sorry. I probably have a bunch of typos in here too, but I think you get the point. Sorry about your fam's connection to journalism... wouldn't wish that on anyone for all the guff one takes. It takes thick skin, I guess. Fred

Listen, every twist and turn of the nickname issue is important to all of us, or esle we wouldn't chat about it ad nauseum on here. What the hell is the difference where it's presented -- in the paper or on some sports message board. Is the paper held to some higher mythical standard than other media, message boards included, and that that is the reason it gets blasted for telling people about the university and their nickname, which they pay for? I've seen some pretty petty nickname subjects discussed on here, but, oh, I guess that's ok, on here. Maybe cause it's relatively free, other than what we pay for an Internet subscription. But the info in the paper is online for free, too, so I don't know what gives. Probably, becuase the paper is just an easy faceless target to criticize without needing to back it up with articulate reasoning. I totally agree that the editorial board has picked a controversial stance on the nickname in order to get people to keep coming back to see what they say next.... but the Herald as a whole is committed to Sioux sports and the nickname. They have a suite at the Ralph for Chrissake! Oh and Hockey Mom, your easy slams of the Herald editing could be assigned to any daily paper in the country that deals in a million words a day. You would do no better if you were in some of those people's shoes. That's not a shot at you, just the reality of working in the business. I used criticize my hometown paper, too, until I worked in one, and found out what they face day in and day out just to get information out. I could say whatever you do is so easy, but I bet if I actually sat down and did it, I would have a different perspective. That is unless it involves a slurpee machine. I could probably do that. Fred

I don't know, I am not going to assume here, again. So I will ask -- are you saying there is something wrong with trying to generate headlines? Yout got some PR background don't you? You've done a little of that, haven't you? I guess it has to do with the subject (oops that's an assumption). You'r not wrong. But there's nothing wrong with what they're doing, either. (That's an opinion.) Oh crap, I forgot -- Journalism 100: Never offer an opinion. Pro-nickname people pine about it being on the front page; anti-nickname people cry because it was presented below the fold. The paper can't win no matter where its put for all the arm-chair editors that are out there. I must admit, you got great opinions though. And you are fun to debate. Fred W.

PCM: It made the front page of the Heraldo becuase it was new news that no other media in the region had. In case you didn't notice, DAZ, DAY, KNOX, KVLY and the "Borum" were tripping over themselves to get the news in on Thursday after the Grand Forks paper had it. It also was bigger news for the paper because -- Holy Cow-- here you actually have a UND group, of students no less, that claim they were neutral on the issue. The relative exclusivity and the unique aspect drove it to the front page, I would guess. You didn't say this, but your post was dripping with this whole pervasive assumption that the current news writers at the Herald hate the nickname and want to get rid of it. The editorial staff maybe, but not the news room. And contrary to popular belief the news room leaders call the shots on how the things are going to be played. Jacobs and his crew rarely make it to the news planning meetings where the issues are discussed. I know you know the Herald better than your giving off. Shocking? Harldly. Other than that ... PCM... keep up the great work. I really enjoy your posts. -- From a former Herald employee

Per Sioux-cia's questions: DeMers voted for the resolution to get rid of the nickname and logo. She offered her anecdote about the American Indian student not coming to UND all on her own. The usual anti-name and logo suspects were there sitting in the peanut gallery: Liegh Jeanotte, Lucy Ganje, Jim Grijalva, Doug McDonald, Donna Brown etc. There were other American Indians there, not many though, and I don't know what their affiliation to UND was. Other than Doug McDonald, who may be at least part Indian, no American Indians spoke on the issue, for or against. There was at least one minority student who spoke up in opposition to the resolution. He was not American Indian, though. I can't remember if I got all your questions, or not, but I hope this helps. IF you want to know anything else just ask, and I'll see if I can recall.

No, I think you guys do a pretty good job of that on your own. Keep up the good work.