JBB

It never fails to amaze me how so many of you on this board turn to the personal attack when you feel your are being backed into a corner by superior argument. My point is this, and it has nothing to do with your arogance: the NCC has become a second sport league for DI hockey/DII other sports schools. It is a competitive league and you can thank SDSU and NDSU for much of that. Every member but 2 have the division mix. Duluth, a school with good football but not the only school with good football in the NSIC (remember Winona) moved out of a perfectly good DII league to bring their DI hockey program to this league. They are not a football centered school. They only seat 6,500. Hockey is their main sport as it is at UND, Mankato, SCSU and UNO. Dont even start with the wrestling. your school dropped it to preserve hockey. NDSU wrestles in DII. If I have a problem with anything its the fact that the NCC has been manipulated by the hockey schools to serve in a supporting role with the DII sports. This has hurt the league and prevented it from moving up as a whole and enjoying the benefits of DI athletics. Something I think you treasure. I think UND plays the major role here since neither SCSU or Mankato launched tremedous public relations campaigns attempting to discredit NDSU and Decision I. SDSU is suffering from the same type of behavior from USD, the leagues future Morningside. Your welcome to have your hockey, the fact that Ive never seen a game shouldnt have any bearing on it, but please why all the resentment and negative publicity about the NDSU Move to DI from all you?

Your talking about the role of the NCC. True it is a good conference and much to your delight has been very competitve nationally. This has helped bring some nationa recognition to your minor NCC sports. A situation that should only get better in the future as DII dilutes itself. Im talking about the function of the conference. I think the facts are bearing me out. The conference is a backdrop for DI hockey/DII other sports schools. How else would you explain Duluths transfer and the fact that the conference only has 2 remaining members that are not in DI hockey. When Bemidji applies for entry even you may even agree with me.

I don

I've never heard of a minimum, maybe the NCC site has something? I dont think any of the teams mentioned are going to move into the NCC. The NCC is primarily a league of DI hockey schools with DII sports carried along out of necessity. The only other school left with that set up is Bemidji. They are probably the most likely candidate to bring the NCC to 8 members. Any other potential members will probably come from a lower division. Why would any of the other schools leave their conferences? Especially now that the NCC is being gutted. I also think a future NCC will support scholarship reductions. It will be a way to subsidize hockey. They will also support all the new rules that will increase the influence of the regional setup because it is cheaper.

Lennon is a good coach. I never said that he wasnt. I dont know how good though. This season is certainly a question mark. It looks like Barney Fife got his head spun around in Mt. Pilot. He knew about the situation with the presidency at Sac State. He knew everthing there was to know. He went down there with a family that was excited about the opportunity. Interviewed for the job and got turned down. By the time you get to the interview stage I think you have already made the relocation decision. I cant imagine a process that wouldnt screen those unwilling to move before the interview. So the only conclusion left is hayseed. Fife fell flat when he hopped off the turnip truck in Mt. Pilot. He put his beloved team and school through a lot of stress. Obviously you people like him and want to retain him. He turns down a job he wanted and failed to get any obvious concessions out of his employer? Is that how the rest of you have managed your careers? I think he went out there to get the job, didnt measure up and the Gentleman, Mr. Wanless, gave him a face saving way out. As far as Mr. Hoyts comments go, I cant stop Barney from applying for any job that comes open. NDSU may have a coaching job next week or in a couple of years. Maybe he thinks the situation in Fargo is better than in your town. Thats not too hard to imainge. I'm not the one suggesting him for NDSU, I'm the one speculating on why Fife did what he did if in fact he wasnt taken out of the process by Sac State.

Its clear that he wasn't selected. He may have been recruited but obviously his interview went poorly and he was given a way out by a gentleman. If its not that he is a hayseed. Why? Because he strung out the offer, basked in the attention of the press, acted like he was interested, kept everyone on a string for a week or two and then backed out? Not very professional. More like a country boy with his head spinning in the big city lights. Just like a deer in the headlights. Of course he may have wanted to draw the D1AA spotlight on himself so he would be positioned for a possible shot at the NDSU job or maybe Montana. Both would be significant salary increases. Time will tell. I dont think he

Apparently he wasnt good enough. Nice of Wanless to let him off the hook in a polite face saving manner. Well, its probably a lot more comfortable for you now that you dont have the dissonance of the head coach moving up but leaving the rest of you behind.

I think that says a lot. I dont know what he might find on the film that would make him stay. He will take all the assistants and players he wants too. It seems that D1AA football is a much better proposition for the coaches and players than it is for the average sue sox fan. In the near future you will also find that the opportunity for your other coaches to go D1 may be far better then the D2 league you are so commited to playing in. Many of you are begining to realize that the heart of your program is being ripped out for a chance to compete at the D1 level. Its nice to see Sac State has found a D2 farm club! See you in D1 soon!

The hilarious and ralph fill the same niche. They are competing by driving down rents to a point where the hilarious lost money this year. I don

I congratulate the NDSU student senate for the actions they have taken. As for Bacardiao's request for answers? Since they are the Sioux they should have the righ to use the name anyway they please. Since your not you dont have that right.

Yes, your right about the Bismarck names, the Forum has an interesting article about both schools. They are hinting strongly that both may be future candidates for the NCC especially if NDSU, SDSU and UNO join UNC in D1 or otherwise depart the NCC. Both schools have upgraded their sports programs immensely and both would compete well, especially in an environment of reduced competition, ie reduced scholarships. Both the RMAC and PSAC operate with fewer than the allowed scholarships. Both, I believe, would support a reduction. I think patience is ok. But for NDSU moving when they did was fine. In the end it may turn out to be six of one or half a dozen, but the early bird may end up with the worm too. The decisions negatively affecting D2 may not be made until 2004 or later. By then the available opportunities may be harder to come by than they are now.

The senario that helped move NDSU to D1 is starting to unfold. As reported in the Fargo Forum this morning heres the first move by D2 to further limit scholarships:

I have read two confilicting salaries for Lennon: $84,000 and $60,000. The new job will pay about $92,000. Its hard to see why he would move to California for $8,000 but $30,000 is a different story. I dont think the recruiting connections will help the Davis Guy. There are people at Sac State that have all the connections they need. Plus, there is so much talent out there Davis has done it without much in the way of scholarships. I think Lennon is the guy, unless some other head coach from D1 with a successful record shows up. They want someone with a proven record at head coach. Babich is enjoying his first head coaching job now at NDSU. Why hes making $100,000 is way beyond me. If Lennon goes you guys can have him!

In Minnesota tech schools and community colleges were combined under one administration and then campuses from different cities were combined under one. That saved 3 layers of management. Ridgewater College in Willmar was combined with Willmar Tech and then combined with Hutchinson community college. Ridgewater College has campuses in Willmar and Hutchinson. It might work in ND.

Hissing and knashing your teeth at BISON fans isn't going to change the fact that coaching at D1AA footbal program, even Sac State, is a better proposition than coaching a D2 team even at your fine insititution. Nobody mentioned Lennon's comments because they are all too busy trying to explain why Decision 1 at NDSU is so bad and D2 is so great.

Goon, you try too hard and you have so little to work with. give your self a break. I never said hockey wasnt a good sport, its a great revenue sport because of all the home games. NDSU in the WCHA? I dont think so. It was explored a few years back. NDSU and hockey. NDSU is 2-0 vs uendd in varsity hockey. Our program was eliminated in th 30's. We used to put the rink on Dacotah Field. I think Hockey is a natural evolution for NDSU athletics. Its been bubbling under for at least 20 years. The club hockey team was a huge push but it didnt materialize. the big reason: no arena. Once the move is made I think an arena is in the cards. It may be anyway if the Fargo Dome Authority moves ahead with plans to build out of exisiting revenues. That wont require a vote. It there is an ice sheet and enough seats I think hockey at NDSU is almost a given.

I like the hedging of your bet. The real problem with this discussion is a lack of honesty on the part of some Sioux fans. UND wants to move up too but has been locked into a position that makes it difficult. Your future in D2 is the same as NDSU but your commitment to D1 hockey has you hedging your bets. Its unfair to critisize NDSU on the way they have conducted the move. there is no other way to do it. You cant always move ahead with the promises in place. UC-Davis is an exception to that rule, but they will still be an independent in football. The future of the NCC really isnt in D2, but as long as most of the schools feel that way there is no changing. Look at SCSU. One of the best football teams in the country. They cant draw flies, but put the hockey team on ice and they get a great crowd. Mankato struggles in the same way. UNO, not even a WCHA member certainly puts the emphasis on the hockey. Those hockey programs face the same kind of costs as a D1 NDSU football or basketball program. It is possible for NDSU to travel and generate revenues. It is possible for a D1 NDSU to make sports work. Certainly it would be easier with the NCC moving along, but they wont. Some may end up following, but there is no profit in waiting. That has been going on since 1974. I also believe there is a place for NDSU hockey. I think a BISON hockey team would have a lot more drawing power than concordia or a semi pro team. Nobody has tried to bring a Semi-pro team into GF, at least to my Knowledge, and the Sioux do just fine. Its the draw of the college team up there and I believe it will be the same in Fargo. NDSU club hockey had a great following but when it became clear there was no future it fizzled. A D1 NDSU will certainly add hockey in the future.

At any rate, all things considered you have to be happier with Lennon than the NDSU fans are with Babich. He has been a disappointment. Naturally, when I saw the records as posted on the web sight I was eager to point it out! I posted this somewhere else, but on the Sac State board the coaching talk is hot and heavy. Lennon is considered by many to be a legit candidate as is Behrens, but so many names from all divisions are being thrown around its hard to tell who is the front runner. They did say that the decision would be made by Christmas, so if Lennon did go it might be a lot sooner rather than later.

Giving up the NCC is not that big of deal. Its a conference that has a future no brighter than D2. It is a minor league sports conference for D1 hockey schools. It will follow the fate of D2 which includes fewer scholerships and more influence over policy from much smaller schools than most in the NCC. As D2 diminishes there is no upside for NDSU staying D2. Its better to move and start the probationary clock ticking as soon as you can. If you agree that sports help a University with visibility and peer group influence then you have to agree that D1 sports programs are important. NDSU cant add hockey because there is no facility and no conference. By moving the rest of the sports up the only remaining problem is conference affiliation. That situation is being played out right now. It will be solved by joining an existing conference (s) or starting a new one. It may mean a year or two as an independent. Time will tell, but either way the scheduling and list of opponents that will appear in Fargo and on the NDSU schedule will have a lot more impact than an NCC schedule. NDSU may very well leave the NCC but what people love about it will still remain. The Fabulous Fargo Dome will be packed when you bring your team to town. UNC will remain a big opponent and Davis will be in town for many years to come. These are big games. Replacing Augi and Mankato with Northern Iowal, Montana etc will certainly be a step up. SDSU and USD are good rivalries but they can be replaced, especially USD. SDSU is on the fence and may even join us in D1 which would assure a continuation of competeition. There is very little downside to a move up by NDSU. The downside of staying D2 and a member of the NCC is much greater. Thats what your constituency of experts is forgetting. Its those facts that are driving the move. Certainly, your tremendous insight aside, the conference affiliation issue will be solved. The money issue is well covered with funds available, there will be far more student athlete opportunity with the increase in scholarships, NDSU will reap the benefits of new affiliations and the world will go on. Its a win win for NDSU, but I wouldnt expect you to see that.

I took my stats from this link: http://www.ncaa.org/stats/football/coachin.../coaching2.html I went back and checked and it says entering the 2002 season but it does show both coaches with 5 years experience? Babich was looking very good after the 200 season when he got to the semifinals, 2001 was a disappointment, 2002 was a wash out. It doesnt take long to lose your luster and Lennon took a huge giant step in that direction last year. There is no defending Babichs record. Its unacceptable. Lennon has had some success but I would be a little concerned in the direction of program this past season. the Sac State board is hot with coaching suggestions and Lennon remains a name that is mentioned. Their rumor board is saying a decision will be made before Christmas. Lots of names have surfaced from all divisions including Pat Behrens and Lennon from D2.

Your right. 2004 is a key, but the NCAA is not known for radical moves. The loophole may be closed. I think that's a possibility. I think the probation periods will be maintained. Its possible that a D1AA division will be created. I think that's the most exciting since it will take in all schools like most of the NCC, existing D1AA schools and a lot of D1 schools. It could be a great division. I for one feel very good about the position NDSU has taken. They cant be hurt by their decision. Whatever happens they will have a year of probation served and if its impossible to move they can stay without penalty. Its a clear win/win. However, I cant see them staying. There is no longer an upside to remaining in D2 and the only way hockey will be played in Fargo is if NDSU is D1. Only then can the program be added. I

Both coaches have been on the job for 5 years. Both had only their recruits on the field this year. Lets look at the records: Babich, bless his heart, has a 44-15 record at NDSU. Some of his best teams came from recruiting that Hagger did. Babich coached his QB to 4 Prestigious and much sought after Golden Arm Awards. Lennon on the other hand has a 43-16 record at your institution of racist intent. His best team was assembled by Roger "Ill take this up at the winter meetings" Thomas. As soon as Lennon was on his own your team did no better than second to last in the NCC and a losing record. Lennon was unable to coach his quarterbacks to any Golden Arm Awards. Both coaches appear to have had bad years. Babich has a better overall record than your Cal. bound Dale "hey look at my haircut" Lennon. Lennon on the other hand has more team honors. Neither is a great coach. Neither will be around in 3 years. I know when you guys are faced with truth you react rather abruptly, but I understand your potential and I don't believe you should be ashamed. However, whining and crying and ordering your guests out is really something you should get over. Now, if you want to argue that Babich is a bigger loser than Lennon have at it. A loser is a loser.

How can you possibly run down Wanless as you have done and then turn around and claim to take pride in the fact " that we have a coach who other schools want"? Its one school and its the the despised Wanless. Another year like this one and you will be thinking Bob Babich might not be too bad!

Read goons response. That's the image he creates for himself. An intellectually bankrupt angry fool. Buffoonery is not attractive. If you cant exchange ideas without exposing how absolutely shallow your thinking is you might do well to sit and smile. Its far more becoming. I don't know what will happen with the conference affiliation. Its true the Big Sky has said they don't want to expand. That's as far as your understanding goes. You have no other insight except the pathological need to see NDSU fail. When you get to the limits of your thinking (always sooner rather than later) you seem to get agitated and lose what little cognitive abilities you may have mustered. Then you lash out. Thats the final refuge of a lot of you on this board. Hopefully your not the cream of the crop up there. Thinking beyond the obvious, the conferences appear to be posturing. What they say may be an absolute, but its just as likely that the stated position is subject to change as the situation evolves.

Just think of the joy if you are able to establish a winning tradition over a D1AA NDSU like Davis has against Sac State? It could be tough for BISON fans! But, as I have pointed out, this is really not about sports at all. Sports are the most visible aspect of the entire Universitie's transformation. If NDSU joins a conference like the Big Sky its very possible we will never again have a common conference affiliation, even after you move up, but if NDSU is part of a new conference formation it's possible you may move up into that one re-creating the old status quo. Whatever happens it will be fun and exciting to watch it all unfold.