82SiouxGuy

I didn't know you had such a forum either, but you found one. Good for you, you can go there after the nickname is retired. I guess there is a place on the Internet for everyone.

By your logic NDSU should only have a few games a year. Every game against a weaker team is a game where NDSU has more to lose than the team they are playing. Is NDSU going to cancel 1/2 or more of their games for the year? Probably keep the FBS game, UNI, Southern Illinois and maybe 1 or 2 more? Definitely shouldn't be playing Robert Morris, Prairieview and the bottom half of the MVFC.

There are only a few people that actually decide whether the game happens. It isn't up for a popular vote. I'm pretty sure that none of the people that will be deciding whether the game happens or not are posting on this forum. So you not seeing this game listed on a schedule has nothing to do with you being in the minority. There is no direct relationship between the 2 things.

Glad you enjoy my commentary. I'm just debating the issue and pointing out the flaws in your argument.

Neither team NEEDS the game. Both teams WOULD BENEFIT by playing the game. But you are more interested in hurting UND (or in your words, not helping UND) more than you are in benefiting NDSU. That is a negative way to live your life, but that's up to you. I would rather find a way to benefit my team even if it benefits a rival. Because I think the rivalry is better if both programs are strong, and I'm not afraid of the competition. But that's just me.

Yeah, I have a job, and no, it isn't for UND. I just happen to have a little flexibility in my job right now. Some days more than others. It won't last, I will get busy again. Are you jealous that I have a little time? The group that was actually anti-Sioux nickname was small, but vocal. Only 1 or 2 of those still post here. All you have to do is go back and read some old threads to see who they were and see that yababy doesn't have a clue. There are some that still post here who said at the time of the settlement that getting Standing Rock to change their mind was going to be very difficult and maybe impossible. After all, Standing Rock had been on the record against the nickname for 15 years by then. Only a fool would believe it was going to be easy to change their minds. Guess what, they wouldn't even discuss it. You can't get someone to change if they won't even talk to you. And legally, they had that right. But yababy doesn't understand laws and legal systems. He lives in a world where everything is fair and puppies don't die. It is too late to debate whether anything more could have been done. I say that you can't negotiate with someone that won't speak to you, and that is what happened with Standing Rock. But what is really important is the fact that it's over. There is noone left to negotiate with. The deadline has passed. The NCAA won't negotiate any more. They won, and they are going to get what they want. No matter what UND does, the NCAA gets what they want. They either get rid of the nickname, or they have a school on sanctions that is minimalized. The NCAA set up sanctions that will slowly make the athletic department irrelevant. UND teams will not be competing in NCAA tournaments, so they won't affect the NCAA. yababy is advocating an empty gesture to somehow make a point to "show them" (I'm not sure who it is going to show, or what it is going to show them). This empty gesture will not harm the NCAA. It will not get the NCAA to back down. The NCAA will continue to turn the screws and push more schools to follow "best practices" and not schedule UND. The empty gesture does not help UND in any way. As a matter of fact, it harms UND by keeping the sanctions in place. It doesn't help the tribes. The only thing the empty gesture would do is make some people feel good. It is an empty, symbolic gesture that allows these people to keep yelling Sioux. It is a selfish move that is only meant to make them feel good. It is not a wise business move. It is not going to support the University. It is not going to do anything for the greater good. It is an empty gesture. yababy was asked many times how this gesture would help UND. His only answer is listed above, and it isn't really an answer to the question. I will ask again, how does your gesture help UND? How does it help get the NCAA to back down? How does it eliminate the sanctions? Why would anyone that wants the University to succeed want to make this gesture?

At the time in Division II you didn't get credit for a win that wasn't in Division II. NDSU missed the playoffs one year because they played and beat Montana instead of beating a cream puff Division II school. That was what UND was trying to avoid. In a way it is similar to what UND will face this coming year. FCS schools usually need 7 wins to make the playoffs. But Division II games don't count. So the SD Mines game doesn't count and UND has to win 7 out of 10 games rather than 7 out of 11. UND and NDSU will both be full members of FCS in 2015, so this issue does not exist. Your comparison is apples and frogs. But nice try. Your post just pointed out the worry about losing to UND.

It ran through my mind as I was typing.

You can't ASSUME anything, especially in political circles. You have to go with the information that you get. The tribes were given an opportunity to provide input. If they didn't care enough to give input then why do they care enough to give input now? The board had 3 tribes on the record as opposing Native American nicknames, and 0 tribes that went on the record in favor. That is a landslide victory. And even the tribes that are now against the ban now are not totally against it. They want to implement some kind of education component if a school wants to keep the nicknames. If the schools want to do the education then they could use the nickname. If they didn't add the education they would have to drop the name. So these tribes are just proposing a graduated ban, and mainly because they are going to have to change their names. They probably didn't expect that. It looks like a case of whose ox is getting gored, and they didn't realize that their ox was also going to get gored.

You do realize that NDSU wouldn't be paying for this PR. They would actually be getting paid for the PR. And getting paid more than if they were playing Podunk U. But that was almost a good example for you. What is really coming out here is that NDSU fans are worried more about NOT helping UND than they are about helping NDSU. They would much rather try to hurt UND than try to help NDSU. Is that an institutional attitude? Let me know when you can officially put the National title game on your schedule every year. That is the only time you can compare the PR potential for a rivalry game versus the National title game.

No one said that winning a title isn't good PR. I didn't even approach that. How often can you count on winning a national title? How often can you put it on the schedule? Do you really believe that NDSU is going to win it every year, or even every other year? If you do you may have raised the bar for delusion on this board, and that is already a high bar. National championships are great, but they are rare. A UND-NDSU game can be on the schedule every year or every other year. It is in the minds of people on a regular basis. It is something that people can look forward to with certainty, not something they hope happens again. Plus, you don't have just 1 PR tool. You try to build an entire toolbox of tools. Some are bigger or more important than others. You have signing day, spring practice, fall camps, all 11 games, playoffs, etc. Throw in announcements about hiring or player grades or whatever things that can be used. But only a fool throws away a huge tool when it is handed to them. Here's your Rival tool.

Eyeballs. Building a brand is all about eyeballs. Do you think that pretty much everyone has heard of Coke and Budweiser? Probably everyone in the United States except those living in a cave. Yet they spend millions and millions of dollars each year on advertising to build their brand. They each get multiple ads on the Super Bowl, spending well over $10 million for that one game. Why? To get eyeballs on the logos. To be visible. What would get more eyeballs on the NDSU logo than a rivalry game with UND? Nothing. Not even the FCS title game would get more people, especially in the 3 state region, to pay attention to NDSU or UND. I'm sorry if you can't grasp the concept.

FCS football is never going to get huge coverage. A UND-NDSU game would get pretty good coverage around the country in FCS circles. People already know about the rivalry and the schools haven't played a game in FCS. So people around the country that have an interest in FCS football would pay attention just like they do for Montanta-Montana State. The big win, which I have attempted to explain repeatedly, is within the region. North Dakota and parts of both Minnesota and South Dakota would pay a great deal of attention to the game. That includes a lot of people that aren't fans of either school, and people that are just very casual fans. The casual fans become huge fans for 1 week of the year. Most of North Dakota gets split between the 2 schools. The attention in the region is priceless. The other attraction that hasn't been mentioned, is the fact that having a true rival can attract players and students. Players love playing in those games, and students love attending them. You can try to sell South Dakota State as a true rival, but nobody outside your circle is buying it. It is a somewhat one sided rivalry. SDSU's big rival will always be USD, and that is back in play again now that they are in the same conference. NDSU will take a backseat to that rivalry, which leaves NDSU without a true rival. UND doesn't currently have a true rival in play either. It only makes sense to restart the games. But that makes too much sense for many in Bville.

The title isn't old news to NDSU fans. But it is to the rest of the world. PR is used to add fans and build. You don't need to attract the faithful, they will be in the building when the banner is hoisted. But there are very few non-NDSU fans that are talking about the FCS title game, or the fact that NDSU won. As I said earlier, PR is fleeting. It is a constant battle. A UND-NDSU football game is a huge PR tool that can be used over and over again. If you want to live in the glory of the title game, go over and celebrate with the Bville Boys. If you want to continue to build your brand you might want to advocate for getting the games going with UND.

You don't need a majority on civil rights type issues. However, it should be a significant number. They asked 9 tribes for input. 3 tribes gave input. The other 6 tribes gave no input. All 3 tribes that gave input said go ahead with the ban. It was supported by other Indian educational organizations. In the United States we normally get less than 50% of the voters at each election. But they are the ones that decide the election. The 50+% that don't participate don't have any input on the decision. At Spirit Lake, for the nickname issue, they had less than 20% of the voters participate. Yet that was the decision that they went with. I don't see much different in this situation. The people that were willing to give input on the the policy were the ones that the board listened to. Now a couple of other tribes are complaining. If they had a problem with the policy they should have said something during the original period, not speak up later when the matter is decided. And not everything is decided by some vote or majority opinion. We, as citizens, hire people to make decisions. We hire people that we believe are qualified to make those decisions. We hope that they are leaders. These people have more information on the issues than the average citizen. The decisions are not always what the majority wants, or what is popular. Running an organization of any kind on a popularity vote is a great way for that organization to fail. Leaders should lead, and should do what is best for the organization. And if the citizens decide that they are not doing a good job, the citizens can change the leaders and hire new people.

A lot of them haven't attended any college. And some have attended college in another state. There are plenty of people out west that attended UND, and I believe that a significant number will support UND's efforts. But there is that group of UND people (mainly hockey only people) that will also vote to keep the name.

Building a huge rivalry helps build a national reputation. UND-NDSU got enough attention that it was covered in a documentary about college football. Watch on Saturday afternoons in the fall and see how much extra coverage that rivalry games get. UND-NDSU would be one of the FCS equivalents. You say that the current players don't care. First, it would not take very long for them to learn to care. They haven't had the experience. Running out onto the field in front of that crowd would change that in a hurry. Anyone that has been to a UND-NDSU football game will tell you that it is a different crowd from a normal Saturday. The energy would be felt on the field. In addition, it would finally give them meaning for the chants that still invade NDSU events. Somehow UND still gets brought up at NDSU events, so you might as well play the game. I was in favor of continuing the games. But I also understood that 1) At least initially it would hurt UND's chances of making the playoffs. That rule was changed, but it was in effect when the decision was made. 2) The games were going to become less fair very quickly as NDSU added scholarships and brought in FCS level players versus the Division II players that UND was still recruiting. And 3) NDSU would probably cancel the games as soon as they got through the transition period because they wouldn't want to play "down" to the DII level. So there was some sense to cancelling the games when it made sense for UND rather than when it made sense for NDSU. But I always said that when the schools were back at the same level of competition, the games should be restarted. As far as your "focus on the national championship", both schools were competing for championships at the DII level. That is also the focus for both shools at the FCS level. It doesn't affect the rivalry game aspect. That is a strawman argument. The rivalry game happens along the way to the tournament. But it attracts a completely different crowd. You don't play the game because you think that the players will strive to win that game more than a National title. You play the game for the fans, the players, the students, and the state of North Dakota.

You really don't understand PR. For one thing, PR is fleeting. There is always something new coming along. The National title is already old news. The other thing is that a majority of North Dakota didn't care about NDSU winning the title. Neither UND nor NDSU holds the interest of a majority of North Dakotans. So less than half of North Dakota cared about the title. But when you put UND and NDSU in the same building, now you have the interest of most people in North Dakota. Not only do you have the interest of the fans of each school, you have the interest of many others that don't really follow either school. And if you get them to watch that game, you have a chance to build that interest. Not realizing that is very short sighted. Do you know why companies pay millions of dollars for a single 30 second TV ad on the Super Bowl? It isn't because they want to sell to the fans of either school. It's because of all of the eyeballs that will be watching that game. The Super Bowl is a national event. A UND-NDSU football game would be the Super Bowl of North Dakota.

You don't replace the FBS game with UND, you replace one of the FCS games at home. If you paid attention to the numbers you would see that you don't have to pay UND, and you wouldn't have to pay for a second home game, so that saves $400,000 that NDSU doesn't pay out, plus the game expenses for the game that would be held at UND. Plus, with premium pricing, you can bring in at least $150,000 extra for a single UND game at home. That is a total of approximately $600,000 going into the NDSU coffers for 2 games. I find it hard to believe that NDSU nets $300,000 for each home game.

I'd like to think that also. But there are a lot of people that aren't really informed on the topic, especially in the western part of the state. The overwhelming urge to fight "outsiders" will cause many of these people to vote to keep the name. Hopefully enough people will learn the truth before the election and we will be able to move on without a problem.

I didn't find it on Youtube with a quick search. It isn't on the Alumni web site either. I haven't seen the ad, but I heard the audio. It sounded pretty good.

The problem is that the issue is very divisive. People just disagree on the issue. Did you read the entire article? The board studyed the issue for 6 years before making a ruling. Only 3 tribes in Oregon, out of 9 in the state, responded when the board was studying the issue. The 2 tribes that are against the policy now did not respond during the study. However, the 3 tribes that did respond were in favor of the ban. There is no way to satisfy everyone. So the easiest solution is to just eliminate the irritant. But saying that the Oregon board didn't listen to tribes is a false statement.

That is the official name of the building. UND doesn't own the building, the Engelstad Trust owns the building. It may or may not go away when the nickname is retired. That will be up to the Engelstad Trust. Just noticed that I responded to the wrong person, this was in reference to the earlier comment about the name. As far as having both names face the press box, that may or may not be a mistake. I have seen that done in other places also, it may just be a choice.

Obviously we don't all know that college athletics is a business. If all of us knew that then NDSU fans would realize that the good PR of playing the game, and the interest that would be generated by that game across the region, would be worth far more than any money brought in by gate admissions. That awareness is something that most schools would kill for, but NDSU doesn't seem to care about or doesn't understand. Getting all of those eyeballs focused on the UND and NDSU logos for 3 hours, plus all of the buildup in the weeks before the game, would be huge for both schools.

The truth is that Gene Taylor and some of their fans still have their feelings hurt from when Roger Thomas stopped all games between the 2 schools. They think that they are some how punishing UND by not scheduling the game. In fact, they are hurting both schools a little bit because they are preventing something that could be good for both. Both schools will do fine if the game isn't played, but both would be better off if the games do start up again.