Can't they just change their minds any time?

[redwing77]

Maybe this is mentioned elsewhere but...

Perhaps the deal can be made by Grand Forks by allowing the licensure and construction of a Sioux-owned casino?

[MplsBison]

Or a giant astroid could hit the earth tomorrow and none of it would matter. That could happen.

But I think it's pretty absurd to compare the probability of one or both tribes going back on any agreement in the future to the probability of an astroid impacting the Earth.

[Diggler]

But I think it's pretty absurd to compare the probability of one or both tribes going back on any agreement in the future to the probability of an astroid impacting the Earth.

Essentially what you are saying is....I really don't give a damn one way or the other about the name, but I think it's dumb you are even trying to keep the name. Since you can't predict what may or may not happen in the future you should just give up and change the name.

If you don't give a damn, congratulations and good for you. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't give a damn.

[PCM]

If you don't give a damn, congratulations and good for you. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't give a damn.

Plus, right now, UND is in better shape than Florida State, Utah, Central Michigan, Catawba or Mississippi College. If any of the tribes that gave those schools approval suddenly rescind it, they'd immediately go back under the NCAA policy. UND has three years, no matter what. I think it's more ridiculous to simply give up without trying to come to an agreement with the tribes than it is to assume that nothing will ever change.

It's certainly possible that the current tribal leadership will maintain its entrenched position and that nothing will change. On the other hand, there are indications that the majority of residents on the reservations feel differently than their leaders. What if they exert their influence and force the tribal councils to give approval to UND? What if some sort of long-term contract can be drawn up that gives the tribes a share of profits made from the sale of Fighting Sioux merchandise? There are probably other possibilities that nobody has thought about or considered at this point.

Am I saying that there's a good chance any of this will happen? No, I'm not, because I have no idea. But until all the options and possibilities have been discussed and explored, it makes more sense to move ahead and see what develops than it does to assume that there's no possibility of UND and the tribes reaching a mutually beneficial agreement.

[MplsBison]

Since you can't predict what may or may not happen in the future you should just give up and change the name.

Like I just said, it's totally absurd to pretend that the probability that one or both tribes will go back on any agreement in the future to the probability of an astroid impacting the earth.

[Diggler]

Like I just said, it's totally absurd to pretend that the probability that one or both tribes will go back on any agreement in the future to the probability of an astroid impacting the earth.

Fine, forget PCM's post. It had no bearing on my post anyways. You don't really care one way or the other and seem to think we all should be of the same opinion. Sure something could happen 15 years down the road. Then again maybe nothing happens too. Why should we have defeatist attitude towards the situation?

[PCM]

Like I just said, it's totally absurd to pretend that the probability that one or both tribes will go back on any agreement in the future to the probability of an astroid impacting the earth.

Then why don't you respond to the points I just made rather than the one you think is absurd?

[MplsBison]

Because your entire argument is hoping that the tribes won't go back on any agreements they make with UND concerning the name.

[Diggler]

So since something might happen, we should just pre-emotively give up just in case? Can that be applied to anything else?

Prohibition might come back, so people should stop drinking alcohol just in case.

The government might collapse upon itself, so I shouldn't pay my taxes just in case.

I might get in a car accident today, so I shouldn't drive to work just in case.

I could gain 100 lbs., so I shouldn't buy this shirt that I like just in case.

My house might burn down, so I shouldn't finish the basement. You know, just in case.

[PCM]

Because your entire argument is hoping that the tribes won't go back on any agreements they make with UND concerning the name.

No, that's your entire argument, not mine. I'm allowing for the possibility that other things could happen. You're not.

[PCM]

So since something might happen, we should just pre-emotively give up just in case? Can that be applied to anything else?

Florida State should change its nickname right now before the Florida Seminole tribe changes its mind.

[Matt]

Plus, right now, UND is in better shape than Florida State, Utah, Central Michigan, Catawba or Mississippi College. If any of the tribes that gave those schools approval suddenly rescind it, they'd immediately go back under the NCAA policy. UND has three years, no matter what. I think it's more ridiculous to simply give up without trying to come to an agreement with the tribes than it is to assume that nothing will ever change.

It's certainly possible that the current tribal leadership will maintain its entrenched position and that nothing will change. On the other hand, there are indications that the majority of residents on the reservations feel differently than their leaders. What if they exert their influence and force the tribal councils to give approval to UND? What if some sort of long-term contract can be drawn up that gives the tribes a share of profits made from the sale of Fighting Sioux merchandise? There are probably other possibilities that nobody has thought about or considered at this point.

Am I saying that there's a good chance any of this will happen? No, I'm not, because I have no idea. But until all the options and possibilities have been discussed and explored, it makes more sense to move ahead and see what develops than it does to assume that there's no possibility of UND and the tribes reaching a mutually beneficial agreement.

I'd sacrifice UND's one year window for a bit of the goodwill betweem Florida State and the Seminole tribe.

[The Sicatoka]

What I've learned through this whole ordeal:

Expect the unexpected.

[PCM]

What I find interesting about MplsBison's argument is that he essentially gives the tribes no credit whatsoever for being able to come to an agreement with the state or UND and then abide by it. He simply assumes that no matter what deal is made, tribal leaders will reverse it at some point and that the tribal courts will allow the tribes to break any contract they sign. He apparently doesn't believe that the tribal governments or justice system are capable of good faith or fair dealing.

And UND is supposedly stereotyping American Indians?

[PCM]

Plus, the U of MN is not going to play you guys in any sport other than hockey as long as you have the Sioux name and logo. No UND/UM football games. No basketball games. Etc.

And yet, the president of the University of Minnesota was today quoted in the campus newspaper saying, "We schedule our athletic events years in advance and I know we'll play the University of North Dakota sometime in the next few years in some sports, I'm sure of that. We'll get this issue resolved."

Are you sure you know everything you think you do?

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

Plus, right now, UND is in better shape than Florida State, Utah, Central Michigan, Catawba or Mississippi College. If any of the tribes that gave those schools approval suddenly rescind it, they'd immediately go back under the NCAA policy.

Here is where I need more info. AFAIK, if UND is ever granted permission by both tribes, and then either tribe subsequently rescinds permission then the Sioux nickname logo is gone forever with no hopes of reviving it. I have never heard that FSU could not get the Okie tribe to approve the Seminole nickname if the Florida tribe ever votes its disapproval, and therefore go on using the nickname/logo. Nor does the NCAA require both tribes to sign on in the case of FSU (again, that's AFAIK). Perhaps they have both done so, but I've never seen a statement saying that both are required for continuing usage. And AFAIK the Florida Seminoles get the bulk (if not all) of the funds from FSU.

UND has three years, no matter what.

If the tribes both approve on 12/1/2007, doesn't that end the three year-period then and there? And if the tribes both revote on 12/15/2007 to take back their approval, doesn't that end the possibiltity of using the nickname forever? I'm not sure about the "no matter what" part.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

And yet, the president of the University of Minnesota was today quoted in the campus newspaper saying, "We schedule our athletic events years in advance...

Now that statement is a pile of....whatever. The only sport which can possibly state that they're scheduled out years in advance is football: and with the recent move from 11 to 12 games annually the schedules are again up in the air right now.

Basketball schedules are commonly not known until roughly July or August of the current year.

While SOME events are scheduled out years in advance, the overwhelming majority of all sports have very fluid schedules until virtually the eve of the academic year. That president is either misinformed or trying to spin something.

[MplsBison]

So since something might happen, we should just pre-emotively give up just in case?

You can't ignore probabilities.

[MplsBison]

I'm allowing for the possibility that other things could happen. You're not.

You're ignoring the probability that the tribes would go back on any deal they make.

[Diggler]

You can't ignore probabilities.

OK, explain to us exactly how probable it is then. You obviously know something none of us do.

It's probable that the Bison will lose to Florida this weekend in basketball so why are they even playing? It's just a complete waste of time. They should just forfeit. I can't believe how stupid Bison fans are for wanting to watch the game.

[PCM]

You're ignoring the probability that the tribes would go back on any deal they make.

I never said it couldn't happen. I said it wasn't the only thing that could happen.

[Old Time Hockey]

That not really the same thing. If my face or my name makes money, then I'm entitled to a share of it when someone uses it without my permission. There is no individual person and no group that owns the Sioux name. That's not to say that UND couldn't cut a deal to share profits with the tribes if it wanted to, but what the university is doing is not the same thing as using the face or name of some well-known person.

I am a bit ignorant on the whole workings of this, but didn't the AD the we just kicked out of here finally get us out of the red? How would it work if UND said that you get X% of the profits each year and it ended up as a year in which the institution lost money?

[82SiouxGuy]

I am a bit ignorant on the whole workings of this, but didn't the AD the we just kicked out of here finally get us out of the red? How would it work if UND said that you get X% of the profits each year and it ended up as a year in which the institution lost money?

I think a deal would include a flat fee per year or a percentage of the royalty fees for use of the name or something similar. The tribes (if they were making the safest deal for them) would not take a percentage of the profits just because of this scenario. If the athletic department broke even or lost money they wouldn't get anything. But a percentage of the royalty fees would go something like this, if UND received a total of $1,000 in royalties from the sale of UND gear, the tribes would get a percentage of that amount. That might be 10% or $100. UND sells a lot of stuff for a school of its size so the tribes cold probably make a nice sum.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

...But a percentage of the royalty fees would go something like this, if UND received a total of $1,000 in royalties from the sale of UND gear, the tribes would get a percentage of that amount. That might be 10% or $100. UND sells a lot of stuff for a school of its size so the tribes cold probably make a nice sum.

AFAIK this is the deal the Seminole tribe has struck with FSU. I really don't know if the tribe gets points from all royalty income or if they break out the revenue attribuitable to either the word "Seminoles" or the Osceola imagery.

This makes the tribes financial partners with the athletic department and gives the tribe incentive to root for the success of the team. Obviously, all of the "Final Four" and other one-off merchandise is pure gravy.

[Cratter]

Understood. At the same time people may look at UND giving money to the tribes (in a hypothetical agreement) as a bribe, or blood money in some sense, and I don't see it that way.

Wouldn't that actually be the exact case?

Word it as you wish: blood money, bribary, etc.......

If the tribes agree that the only way they will approve the nickname is if we give them money.

And if UND agrees, that is indeed exactly what people will think. Or even if UND "entices" them with money.

Therefore, I think UND should never give a dime to a tribe to try and get approval of a name and image that the University itself has trademarked.

Why would The University of North Dakota want to give away money (percent of sales, guarantee yearly salary, etc) when finances are already tough. And that money could be spent on bettering the actual university and its athletic programs. Who would have thunk it.

Bribery is the practice of offering something (usually money) in order to gain an advantage.