Here come your Jumping Frogs!

[PCM]

And now for something completely different.

Quebec owner defends use of a frog in his basketball team's new logo

MONTREAL

[ScottM]

So, I'm guessing "Cheese Eating Surrender Monkeys" didn't go over so well?

[MafiaMan]

"Frogs" is considered a racist insult EVERYWHERE in North America? Good grief. We're totally coming apart at the seams.

[Sioux-cia]

Sorry Guys but I gotta disagree with you on this one. The term Frog to a person of French descent is very insulting. It is tantamount to calling people of other nationalities Spics, Japs, Honkeys, Paddys, the N word (why is it so much more a taboo to say the N work than the others, oh well, that's for another time), Prairie 'N's, etc.

[MafiaMan]

Sorry Guys but I gotta disagree with you on this one. The term Frog to a person of French descent is very insulting. It is tantamount to calling people of other nationalities Spics, Japs, Honkeys, Paddys, the N word (why is it so much more a taboo to say the N work than the others, oh well, that's for another time), Prairie 'N's, etc.

[PCM]

Sorry Guys but I gotta disagree with you on this one. The term Frog to a person of French descent is very insulting. It is tantamount to calling people of other nationalities Spics, Japs, Honkeys, Paddys, the N word (why is it so much more a taboo to say the N work than the others, oh well, that's for another time), Prairie 'N's, etc.

I get your point. While I'm sure being called a "frog" is insulting to some French-speaking people, it's been so widely used for so long that I wouldn't consider it in the same league as the "n" word or some other racial epithets. The term was invented by one group of white Europeans to refer to another group of white Europeans. Therefore, I don't think the racial animosity angle really applies.

I was surprised that a basketball team owner with a French name would consider naming his team the Jumping Frogs in a predominantly French-Canadian city and not expect a negative reaction to it. I don't really care what they call their basketball team, as long as it's not something I find offensive, such as the Fighting Irish or the Vikings.

[Sioux-cia]

Using your own analogy, if I had the means to buy a basketball team in the South, I could name it the N... Word and as long as the mascot is not of African descent or eating a watermelon, it's ok. I could have a Soccer team in Texas and call them the Spics as long as the mascot wasn't wearing a sombrero and waving a flag from some Latin American country. I could own a race car team in Little Italy (NY) and call it the Wops and it would be ok as long as the mascot wasn't a gondola driver waving the Italian flag. I could own a school and call it the Hebe and as long as the logo wasn't a Star of David it would be ok. I could own a music store and call it the Chinks, and as long as the logo wasn't a violin playing person with Oriental features, it's ok.

So it's ok to call a basketball ball team in Quebec the jumping Frogs because it's not waving the French flag.

You don't don't know why the Jumping Frogs is an offensive, derogratory name to people of French descent, ok. I do.

[Sioux-cia]

The term was invented by one group of white Europeans to refer to another group of white Europeans. Therefore, I don't think the racial animosity angle really applies.

Most of those 'adjectives' were invented by white Europeons to degrade anyone who was 'different'. Unfortunately, some people of white Europeon descent now think 'the racial animosity angle' does not apply when those terms are used to describe/call/refer to those same people they invented the terms to use as insults.

[CoteauRinkRat]

"Frogs" is considered a racist insult EVERYWHERE in North America? Good grief. We're totally coming apart at the seams.

I couldn't agree with you more MafiaMan.

[MafiaMan]

Using your own analogy, if I had the means to buy a basketball team in the South, I could name it the N... Word and as long as the mascot is not of African descent or eating a watermelon, it's ok. I could have a Soccer team in Texas and call them the Spics as long as the mascot wasn't wearing a sombrero and waving a flag from some Latin American country. I could own a race car team in Little Italy (NY) and call it the Wops and it would be ok as long as the mascot wasn't a gondola driver waving the Italian flag. I could own a school and call it the Hebe and as long as the logo wasn't a Star of David it would be ok. I could own a music store and call it the Chinks, and as long as the logo wasn't a violin playing person with Oriental features, it's ok.

So it's ok to call a basketball ball team in Quebec the jumping Frogs because it's not waving the French flag.

You don't don't know why the Jumping Frogs is an offensive, derogratory name to people of French descent, ok. I do.

You're comparing apples to oranges, Sioux-cia.

N-word, Spics, Wops, Hebes, Chinks, etc. are all obviously offensive. Frogs? A frog is a creature with little webbed feet. If this sports team were located in Butte, MT, you'd think it was pretty cool. Making the "French-connection" is a bit of a stretch for me.

[Eskimos]

The N-word is a commonly known racial slur.....Frogs on the other hand...........if we set up a poll on here, how many would even have any clue that the term Frog offended anyone?

[ScottM]

So does this mean the next time I order "frog legs" in Savannah or New Orleans, I might get more than I expected?

[PCM]

Most of those 'adjectives' were invented by white Europeons to degrade anyone who was 'different'. Unfortunately, some people of white Europeon descent now think 'the racial animosity angle' does not apply when those terms are used to describe/call/refer to those same people they invented the terms to use as insults.

The English called the French "frogs" because the French considered frog legs a gourmet delicacy. The French called the English "limeys" because the British navy fed its sailors limes to ward off scurvy. The French, English and Americans called Germans "krauts" because of their fondness for sauerkraut.

It isn't the same as giving a group of people a derogatory nickname based on their race or regligion. To use a more up-to-date analogy, it's like Sioux fans calling Gopher fans "goofers" or "rodents." And it's like Gopher fans calling Sioux fans "suzies."

Is such namecalling childish, immature and juvenile? Yes it is. Does it rise to the level of hate speech? I think not.

Sticks and stones...

[Sioux-cia]

I've been called a 'beaner', insulting derogatory and hurtful to 'little girl' me. Persons of Mexican descent are called beaners because beans were a big staple in our diets.

The French are called Frogs because they eat frog legs.

Vietnamese are called Dog eaters because they eat dog.

Remember the Disney movie The Mighty Ducks? One kid called another one 'Cake Eater',as an insult, because the other kid came from a rich community.

The owner of this Quebec basketball team is well aware that the name Frogs is insulting to French people. He wants to nullify the negative term by calling his team the Frogs. Good idea, I agree in princiiple but it is an insult to thousands of people who know that being called a frog is not a compliment.

I'm not going to change any minds here, I know. I just want my opinion, as someone 'who's been there' expressed.

Oh, and one more thing, just because you didn't know a name or term is an insult doen't mean it isn't especially to those who use the term to refer to others and to the others who are subjected to it.

[CoteauRinkRat]

I'm not going to change any minds here, I know. I just want my opinion, as someone 'who's been there' expressed.

You are assuming that others who have already expressed their opinions, haven't "been there". How do you know that?

[Siouxman]

There are many interesting thoughts as to where the "Frogs" moniker came from. The British called the French frogs in the 1700's (I watched Horatio Hornblower on A&E). I did a little internet search and found this:

According to the person who sent me this, the English nickname for the French has nothing to do with their fondness for frogs legs, oddly enough the term was coined by the French nobility as a disparaging monicker for the inhabitants of Paris. The land surrounding Paris was notoriously swampy and the 18th century kinds and courtiers of Versailles habitually referred to the Parisians as LES GRENOUILLES. Foreign diplomats picked it up and gradually became use to describe the French in general.

That doesn't seem particularly overly derogatory, but maybe there is some other meaning that developed over the years. If you go to www.askjeeves.com and type in "Why are the French called frogs?" you will get a number of web sites with widely varying guesses as to the source of frogs. Surprisingly, some of the people indicate that they consider it as a positive comment, and not derogatory at all. Maybe in Canada it evolved from its original usage to now mean something else.

I worked at Frenchy's while in college (he is Canadian) and various people would call him Frog. I never saw him indicate that he considered it an insult, but maybe he did.

[southpaw]

Remember the Disney movie The Mighty Ducks? One kid called another one 'Cake Eater',as an insult, because the other kid came from a rich community.

i don't get how you can compare the name "frogs" to be as bad as the n-word and in another post essentially compare it to being called a "cake eater."

[MafiaMan]

I've been called a 'beaner', insulting derogatory and hurtful to 'little girl' me. Persons of Mexican descent are called beaners because beans were a big staple in our diets.

Oh, and one more thing, just because you didn't know a name or term is an insult doen't mean it isn't especially to those who use the term to refer to others and to the others who are subjected to it.

Carlos from "Mind of Mencia" pokes fun at 'beaners' all the time. He also pokes fun of black people, whitey, and even the disabled. Yet people laugh. Is he racist?

Couldn't GrahamCracker use your last paragraph (which I bolded for emphasis) as part of his logic for wanting "Fighting Sioux" changed? I find it interesting that you are so offended by the word "frogs" yet ok with UND's nickname. After all, just because you didn't know a name is an insult doesn't mean it isn't, right?

[MafiaMan]

And please, tell me you weren't offended by THIS:

which had to be changed to THIS:

[PCM]

One more example. The British routinely call Americans "yanks," a term derived from the Revolutionary War song "Yankee Doodle Dandy." Many other people around the world have adopted the term "yanks" or "Yankees" to refer to Americans -- sometimes in a deragatory sense and sometimes in an informal slang sense. Today, very few Americans that I know of resent being called "yanks" or "Yankees." Yet, as this article reveals, the term was intended to be an insult to backwards American colonials.

The song "Yankee Doodle Dandy" expresses European perceptions of the colonials. It reflects the supposed backwardness of America, typified by the long life of the three-cornered tricorne (and also by the fact that in 1775, most of Washington's army showed up in its everyday work clothes with men wearing handkerchiefs on their heads).

"Yankee Doodle Dandy" began before the Revolution, though. When the colonial forces supported the British at Niagara during the French and Indian War (1754-1763), the Brits

Edited August 10, 2006 by PCM

[Sioux-cia]

You are assuming that others who have already expressed their opinions, haven't "been there". How do you know that?

Where did I say that? Please don't put words in my mouth/posts or make assumptions as to my meaning. As most here know, when I want to say something, I say it loud and clear. I don't 'come in throught the back door.' That's not my style.

[Sioux-cia]

Some people's mind sets are just that, minds set. I'm not looking or expecting anyone on this board or out 'in the real world' to change they opinions on what is racist and what is not. To paraphrase someone whose name I can't remember at this time, I may not be able to define rascism to you but I certainly know it when I see it, hear it, or am subjected to it. I've expressed my opinion which I believe to be the 'right' opinion, I respect your right to express your opinion and your right to believe it's the 'right' one.

Regarding the comparison to GK, low blow, MM!!

But to respond to it, I hear, read, etc. those derogatory terms used in derogatory ways today, here, and now. I have NEVER heard the word Sioux used in the derogatory way we're discussing on this thread today, here and now.

Don't bring up the Sioux Suck, etc chants unless you can show that it's referring to the Sioux people and not to the Fighting Sioux athletes or in the same way Gophers Suck, Badgers Suck etc is meant. As I've already mention what is in the cited article. The owner of this BB team named his team the Frogs knowing it is a derogrotory term used to call people of French descent. Our team is named the Fighting Sioux knowing that the people who it is named for were courage, honorable, hard working people whose strenghts we want in our athletes.

[MafiaMan]

Regarding the comparison to GK, low blow, MM!!

But to respond to it, I hear, read, etc. those derogatory terms used in derogatory ways today, here, and now. I have NEVER heard the word Sioux used in the derogatory way we're discussing on this thread today, here and now.

Don't bring up the Sioux Suck, etc chants unless you can show that it's referring to the Sioux people and not to the Fighting Sioux athletes or in the same way Gophers Suck, Badgers Suck etc is meant. As I've already mention what is in the cited article. The owner of this BB team named his team the Frogs knowing it is a derogrotory term used to call people of French descent. Our team is named the Fighting Sioux knowing that the people who it is named for were courage, honorable, hard working people whose strenghts we want in our athletes.

All I'm trying to point out is how 'the other side' could twist those words against you. "Frogs" is offensive to some, so the knee-jerk reaction is to can the nickname. "Sioux" is offensive to some so let's 86 that too.

The whole PC thing has gone bananas. A few years ago, I was an assistant coach for youth baseball in Richfield. Teams such as the Yankees, Tigers, Marlins, Red Sox, Twins, Orioles, Dodgers, etc. were the norm. Some parents complained because the "Braves" was offensive. Others complained that kids were being teased because the 'real life-Marlins' were baseball's worst team. Still others complained because everyone wanted to be the Twins since they're the hometown team and everyone hates the White Sox. The end result? Fast-forward to the following season team names (some of them are listed below):

Richfield Red

Richfield Royal Blue

Richfield Green

Richfield Orange

Richfield Navy Blue

Yep, you got it. Team names were banned.

Again, this ultra-sensitive world has gone totally mad if a guy can't buy his own team and call it the "Frogs" without fear of offending people. I guarantee you that you can think of a word these days, ANY word, and somewhere, someplace in our society, someone will jump up and scream "I'm offended!".

[MafiaMan]

I just don't see how anyone can look at this picture and see anything offensive about it!

What about this? Anyone offended by this given the number of people killed by Rottweiler dogs each year?

Do you know anyone who ever died as a result of a rattlesnake bite? You should be offended by this!

Does anyone know the real story behind THIS logo? It was first used in present-day Kansas in the late 1850's and was generally associated with lawlessness and theft. Odds are if you're from Missouri, you're offended!

[MafiaMan]

How about this one? Maybe a little Spartan history will offend you. A state society that left its weakling infants in the hills to do of exposure as opposed to feeding them. Where is the outcry against Michigan State or San Jose State?

Here's a little history lesson for you:

Sparta: A Brief History