Kupchella: Self-righteous NCAA deserves lawsuit

[sioux7>5]

Wow. Such anger. The good Dr. K must be a member of this site and be reading all of this. You've all influenced him into an unfortunate rant.

It doesn't look good. Really.

aff, you da man. Your email says what I couldn't.

Aff and OrygunSue....First I think you both want the whole world to join hands and sing together or something. Has the State of Oregon made you so PC that you can not see right and wrong. Maybe this letter from Kupchella will wake the NCAA up. I think it is great that he finally took off the gloves which is what everyone needs to do every now and again. AFF you are always on here bashing the Sioux.

Maybe you both should meet and have a great PC relationship and take in a few tree hugging ceremonies why you are together.

PC is ruining this country and people like Kupchella need to finally stand up and say enough is enough.

GO Sioux and SIOUX FOREVER!

[Sioux-cia]

There are more alum, non alum, Native Americans and other athletic programs/participants/members who support UND in their quest to put the NC$$ in their place then on the opposing side (do your homework , the numbers are there). And that place is not as the country's social conscious.

Unlike ass, OrgySue and the rest of the PC crowd, President Kupchella isn't prepared to bend over for the NC$$.

[Northcountry]

What needs to be realized is the it was the NCAA that fired the "hostile and abusive" shot, did it without ever having visited the campus, did it without ever communicating with the UND population, did it in spite of the two self-study reports that UND filed with the NCAA, did it in spite of the report from the Office of Civil Rights (which they subsequently refused to read), then fired off two appeal rejections (both of which affirmed their position that UND maintains and promotes a "hostile and abusive" atmosphere despite again refusing invitations to visit and SEE FOR THEMSELVES). In my opinion, the hand of compromise and reason was tendered to the NCAA and they slapped it TWICE - the opportunity was there for the NCAA to say "Let's talk about this", instead they responded with "you have not proved yourselves innocent of our accusations (and there is no need for US to prove your guilt)". I think President Kupchella has been very measured in his response and the fact that others have implied that the NCAA will have a "long memory" which will cause harm down the road for Dr. Kupchella's response only reinforces the need for the NCAA to be called to defend itself and its position. I have believed from the start that litigation is the only way to put an end to this once and for all - the use of human imagary and logos is either permissable under law or it is not and I for one am willing to abide by whatever the courts decide.

As an afterhought _ I think I am in favor of winning the battle in court and the next day announcing that UND will no longer use any nickname or logo, we will simply be THE University of North Dakota (maybe THE as the logo, with some feathers).

English majors please to not take issue with the rambling prose.

[Chewey]

No rambling prose at all. These days, I do not think English majors even know what constitutes prose. I speak as one who graduated in the late 80's. Too many of the English types are too busy protesting to know anything else. Perhaps they are working on their study of irony or symbolism? Of course, that presumption is overly sanguine.

[dagies]

Orygunsue may have a arguable point, that being that the name is too much trouble than it is worth and there may soon be a time to change it.

That said, I don't want to change it. AND...

This fight NEEDS to be fought regardless. Kupchella's point really doesn't seem to be that UND is right to be using the name so much as the NCAA is out of line in making this policy, and that they have inappropriately labeled UND as being hostile and abusive. The NCAA should not have a dog in this fight. UND isn't harming anyone, and this is a local matter and should be solved that way.

IMO, that's what's got Kupchella's hair up more than love for the Fighting Sioux nickname.

I will repeat that I don't ever want to change the name, but there may be a time when it is wise to do so. However, if that time ever comes it must be because the decision is made on a local level that it's the right time to do so, not because someone with no knowledge of the situation bullies UND into doing it.

[Flatland]

Kup now has the opportunity to speak frankly and avoid all the necessary point-by-point arguments that he already made in the appeals, now that the NCAA has basically said they are done with their decisions. He spoke with very direct retoric that clearly shows the appeals weren't even considered. Basically, the NCAA never saw what they were looking for, which was approval from the tribes. They never seemed to consider the legalities of what they were doing which was one of the things UND showed in the appeals. Probably because the NCAA believe they are immune from a lawsuit. I'd be interested to see how UND lays the groundwork for this lawsuit. It's probably somewhere between anti-trust and free speech.

[aff]

Aff and OrygunSue....First I think you both want the whole world to join hands and sing together or something. Has the State of Oregon made you so PC that you can not see right and wrong. Maybe this letter from Kupchella will wake the NCAA up. I think it is great that he finally took off the gloves which is what everyone needs to do every now and again. AFF you are always on here bashing the Sioux.

Maybe you both should meet and have a great PC relationship and take in a few tree hugging ceremonies why you are together.

PC is ruining this country and people like Kupchella need to finally stand up and say enough is enough.

GO Sioux and SIOUX FOREVER!

I don't think I argued that the name was inappropriate, so I don't know why you're giving me the PC issue. I seriously could care less if UND takes the case to court. Its all of your generous donations that are going to be paying for, and I'm not going to tell anybody how to spend there money. The only point I've ever made is that alot of schools with alot of prestigous law schools and lot of the top law minds in the nation haven't thought that an appeal was worth the time or money, so I don't know how UND was going to be any different. But you think it is, great, I could care less, spend a whole years salary on the appeal, maybe you'll get lucky maybe you won't. I know how I think the appeal will turn out, and you're welcome to you're opinion too.

I also don't think I attacked the Sioux or UND in any form. All of my comments were directed at Kupchella. His comments were at best immature, and at worst, stupid and hurtful to the university.

I am glad to see you think that he "took the gloves off". Hope you're ready for the NCAA to "take the gloves off" too. They have literally hundreds of lawyers ready to go on this issue. Oh, and they control the division I movement process. And where tournament sites are in the future. And any other problems you may have with your athletic programs in general. I guess I can see from all that, why it would be a good idea to piss them off, especially for a goal as noble as thumping your chest, and getting absolutely nowhere on the issue at hand. WOW, GREAT JOB!!!!!!!!

So, to sum up: UND wrote an idiotic letter to the NCAA that has the possibility of hurting themselves for years to come in any and every aspect of their athletic program. This letter accomplished absolutely nothing. Amazing.

[aff]

Kup now has the opportunity to speak frankly and avoid all the necessary point-by-point arguments that he already made in the appeals, now that the NCAA has basically said they are done with their decisions. He spoke with very direct retoric that clearly shows the appeals weren't even considered. Basically, the NCAA never saw what they were looking for, which was approval from the tribes. They never seemed to consider the legalities of what they were doing which was one of the things UND showed in the appeals. Probably because the NCAA believe they are immune from a lawsuit. I'd be interested to see how UND lays the groundwork for this lawsuit. It's probably somewhere between anti-trust and free speech.

I'm sorry, but I think I read that you called Kupchella's letter "very direct rhetoric". That just was very funny to me.

And you don't think the NCAA considered the legal ramifications of this? Really? Who do you think is running this organazation, a bunch of monkeys? Do you know how many lawyers work for the NCAA? You don't think maybe this whole thing might have crossed one or two of their desks on the way up?

Look, I said it in the post above, but I'll say it again. If marquette changed their name, and Illinios hasn't brought this to court, there's probably a good reason for it. I don't know why you think UND is going to walk all over the NCAA on this.

[Csonked Out]

A lot of people are missing the point about why UND wants to fight this in court. Its a matter of respect, UND produces 25% of the native american doctors in the Nation, has over 30 programs for native americans, offers extra money to Native Americans, and the list goes on. I for one am proud of all of the programs and extra opportunities provided, a lot more institutions could take a few notes from UND. That being said i'm not saying Native Americans, or for that matter any minority are free of discrimination at this University or any university, their will always be those few shallow minded people who feel that way.

Why is this important to us you ask? In the minds of many people now, when they hear UND they don't think of any of the facts I have stated, they think of the 2 main words the NCAA labeled us with and that is Hostile and Abusive, without ever visiting the campus. This turned the whole situation very personal for a lot of people, because now we feel as though we're targeted at being a racist. For 99% of us hear that is not the case, and it should be very understandable. No one reacts kindly to be called a racist, and if that is stated or implied the fight does become personal. Now i'm not one to argue that we have a reputation to uphold, because a reputation can change in a moment, but myself along with most people on this board know the kind of character that this institution represents, and that what is important. Our goal is to get the message out to the rest of the world to make a point, whether we win the lawsuit or not, the University of North Dakota is a school that is proud of every students heritage, we celebrate it with pride and respect with every reference to the university, that is what we our fighting for. "REPUTATION MAY ONLY LAST A MOMENT, BUT CHARACTER MY FRIENDS LAST A LIFETIME." Did Dr. Kupchella's words seem professional or polictically correct, of course not. At the same time I would not call them immature, this fight is personal, and at some point the Political Correctness must stop. What he said can't hurt us anymore in the NCAA's eyes than takin them to court in the first place. I can guarantee you they will remember us in a much more negative way by suing them, then by some letter written out of anger and frustration.

[Csonked Out]

Oh and by the way The University of Illinois has not yet ruled out the lawsuit, they just aren't joining UND because if we do sue, ours will be a state matter

[Flatland]

And you don't think the NCAA considered the legal ramifications of this? Really? Who do you think is running this organazation, a bunch of monkeys? Do you know how many lawyers work for the NCAA? You don't think maybe this whole thing might have crossed one or two of their desks on the way up?

Look, I said it in the post above, but I'll say it again. If marquette changed their name, and Illinios hasn't brought this to court, there's probably a good reason for it. I don't know why you think UND is going to walk all over the NCAA on this.

I never said UND would walk over the NCAA. People for the change keep saying that we think that, but any rational person would be foolish to think it would be "easy." I also said that the NCAA probably fills immune to lawsuits because of previous wins. They overlooked most of the information in the appeals about anti-trust and said basically that they don't care. I would imagine that a lawsuit could be closely contested, but the case has already been made here over and over and in the local papers about the financial impact that would be caused. When you bring in the fact that the closest alternative to the NCAA has a significant reduction in revenue (and competition) to the university, anti-trust arguments start to creep in.

There is a good reason that this hasn't been brought to court... It's called the NCAA appeals process. I know it was slow, but a university would look foolish not to first exhaust it's appeals. UND so far has the most to lose at this point anyway. Illinois gets to keep its name and I would think they may decide to let it go and make the few changes that are necessary. I would hope the speed in any potential lawsuit would proceed faster, but I don't expect it to happen quickly for my convenience.

[HockeyMom]

UND is merely pointing out to the NCAA how incredibly flawed (although they didn't intend it to be that way when they started this whole mess) their decision is. I think the tone of the letter is that- hey NCAA, you have one more chance to change your mind before you see us in court......and reminding them that they are not being fair and consistant about this whole thing.

This fight isn't over us having a certain nickname anymore. It's about the NCAA treating us differently than all the other schools that they have given a pass to. Sorry, you can't do that and expect people to bend over and take it.

[aff]

Oh and by the way The University of Illinois has not yet ruled out the lawsuit, they just aren't joining UND because if we do sue, ours will be a state matter

What? How is this going to be a state matter? The state is going to pay for it? Or you think the attorney general is going to try it for you? I'm pretty sure either way is wrong, and that you might be thinking of the recommendation from your attorney general to try the case, I don't think he said that he was going to try it for you. Maybe I'm wrong, but I can't even imagine the !@$! storm that would occur in your legislature if state money and state lawyers were trying this case for UND. That would be lost votes for whoever your govenor currently is too, and he doesn't need to lose them. Why alienate people that might have voted for you, when there are so many donors willing to put up money like the loyal members of this board?

[aff]

UND is merely pointing out to the NCAA how incredibly flawed (although they didn't intend it to be that way when they started this whole mess) their decision is. I think the tone of the letter is that- hey NCAA, you have one more chance to change your mind before you see us in court......and reminding them that they are not being fair and consistant about this whole thing.

This fight isn't over us having a certain nickname anymore. It's about the NCAA treating us differently than all the other schools that they have given a pass to. Sorry, you can't do that and expect people to bend over and take it.

I think the point the NCAA has made was that with the local tribes approval, you can have your name. The seminole tribe in florida said it was alright, than its alright. Despite all of the bluster I've heard about how great UND is for native americans, UND didn't get the approval of those native americans for its logo. Right or wrong, thats the bright line test that the NCAA is abiding with. I don't really know how UND can defeat this in court. I don't know how you can say that the NCAA is treating you differently with this either. Illinios didn't get approval, their still on the list. In fact, every school that didn't get approval from tribes is still on the list. It sounds like equal treatment to me.

I seriously don't understand why there has to be this big commotion about this whole thing in the first place. UND should just go with warriors like marquette did, and leave all of the logos alone, and add a few pictures of warriors of different races in you're athletic facilities. You could probably even leave your current mascot in place on your uniforms. There, done, the NCAA pretty much got screwed, since they didn't accomplish anything, and UND has to spend about $3000 on a couple of new pictures for your facilities. Does that appeal to anybody?

[Flatland]

$3000?... Now, that's funny. I also don't know how many times this needs to be said, but UND still does have approval from the nearest tribe. Just because they refuse to talk to both sides, doesn't mean that has changed.

[aff]

$3000?... Now, that's funny. I also don't know how many times this needs to be said, but UND still does have approval from the nearest tribe. Just because they refuse to talk to both sides, doesn't mean that has changed.

Why is that funny? How much do you envision putting up a large poster of a viking and a large poster of a knight or something like that to cost? Thats really all you would need. Maybe a few donors would even be willing to donate a few pictures or something like. Does that sound like $500,000 to you? How much is the cost of removing every sioux logo going to be? How much is the cost of a lawsuit against the NCAA going to be? I'm pretty sure that marquette pulled this of pretty cheaply, but you're right, go with the lawsuit and pray it works. Worry about the consequences later.

[aff]

$3000?... Now, that's funny. I also don't know how many times this needs to be said, but UND still does have approval from the nearest tribe. Just because they refuse to talk to both sides, doesn't mean that has changed.

And you don't have approval from the other side. Nice as it would be to get one side to matter more than the other it doesn't. FSU got approval from every side that matters. UND didn't. There's no arguing that. What do you expect the NCAA to do. Tell the other tribe that they don't matter, even though there just as much Sioux as the tribe you have approval from? The NCAA did talk to both sides, and one side didn't approve it. You're the one who doesn't want to talk to both sides.

[PCM]

I think the point the NCAA has made was that with the local tribes approval, you can have your name.

And the Spirit Lake Sioux tribe said it had no problem with UND using the Sioux name. So why isn't the NCAA applying the same standard to UND that it applied to Florida State, Utah and Central Michigan?

The seminole tribe in florida said it was alright, than its alright. Despite all of the bluster I've heard about how great UND is for native americans, UND didn't get the approval of those native americans for its logo. Right or wrong, thats the bright line test that the NCAA is abiding with.

If you can't see the gross hypocriscy in that standard, then there's no hope for you. With every waiver the NCAA granted, it said it believed the practice of college athletic teams using tribal names was wrong. So if it's morally wrong, why allow some NCAA members to engage in the practice and some not? And if racial, ethnic and national stereotyping is as inherently evil as the NCAA claims, then there's no way that names such as Aztecs, Vandals, Vikings, Fighting Irish and other human-based nicknames should be allowed, either. Yet the NCAA turns a blind eye to those nicknames.

I don't really know how UND can defeat this in court.

UND is getting some excellent legal advice on the matter. I doubt very much that the university would proceed with a lawsuit that it had no chance of winning.

I don't know how you can say that the NCAA is treating you differently with this either.

I believe I answered that above.

I seriously don't understand why there has to be this big commotion about this whole thing in the first place.

The NCAA created the "big commotion," not UND. What many people unconnected with UND or Grand Forks fail to understand is that the NCAA has labeled UND hostile and abusive to a minority race that not only makes up a significant portion of North Dakota's population, but also a significant part of the student body. This charge is absolutely false, and all the evidence Kupchella cites in his letter proves it. Why should UND roll over for the NCAA and admit to something that's not true?

The NCAA has demanded that UND change its name or face punitive consequences. Regardless of whether NCAA members agree with the association's policy on American Indian nicknames, they should be alarmed at the manner in which Myles Brand and the Executive Committee have trampled all over the organization's constitution and bylaws. Brand continually claims that the NCAA is a "member-driven organization," but the manner in which this policy was implemented proves that it isn't.

UND should just go with warriors like marquette did, and leave all of the logos alone, and add a few pictures of warriors of different races in you're athletic facilities. You could probably even leave your current mascot in place on your uniforms. There, done, the NCAA pretty much got screwed, since they didn't accomplish anything, and UND has to spend about $3000 on a couple of new pictures for your facilities. Does that appeal to anybody?

Nice idea, but if two feathers in William & Mary's logo are enough to keep it on the NCAA's list, I doubt that your proposal would be acceptable.

[Csonked Out]

When I say its a state matter i'm saying we're going through the state board of higher education for advice, it means our state seal has american indian imagery on it, not that we are using the attorney general or that the state is payin for it ya tool. We have already received multiple offers for free legal advice from lawyers around the country conerning this matter, so if we win they get a piece of the pie. Know your information before you begin to insult everyones remarks aff. No universities are going to team up on a lawsuit because each lawsuit will be contingent based on what the NCAA has told each university, no case will be exactly the same.

[82SiouxGuy]

What? How is this going to be a state matter? The state is going to pay for it? Or you think the attorney general is going to try it for you? I'm pretty sure either way is wrong, and that you might be thinking of the recommendation from your attorney general to try the case, I don't think he said that he was going to try it for you.

It has been stated by many people at the state and university levels that this is a state matter because it is a state institution. After all, it is the University of North Dakota. It hasn't been decided if the attorney general or a private firm will actually try the case. But any litigation will probably be paid for by private donations because this shouldn't be paid for by the general public.

[Siouxman]

I do not believe that FSU covered all aspects of their case. I am not going back and research it for sure, but I believe that I recall there is a branch of the Seminole tribe in Oklahoma that vocally opposed FSU using Seminoles but the NCAA approved it based on the Florida tribe saying its ok. Well, the Spirit Lake has an official resolution supporting UND use of Fighting Sioux, but other tribes do not. That is the NCAA hypocrisy. Treating a big time Division I institution one way while treating UND differently.

[HockeyMom]

I seriously don't understand why there has to be this big commotion about this whole thing in the first place. UND should just go with warriors like marquette did, and leave all of the logos alone, and add a few pictures of warriors of different races in you're athletic facilities. You could probably even leave your current mascot in place on your uniforms. There, done, the NCAA pretty much got screwed, since they didn't accomplish anything, and UND has to spend about $3000 on a couple of new pictures for your facilities. Does that appeal to anybody?

You are charged with rape, yet you are innocent. Instead of going to court to prove your innocence you should plead guilty because that would be easier.

The NCAA labeled The University of North Dakota Hostile and Abusive. The University of North Dakota is NOT Hostile and Abusive...that is what the commotion is about this whole thing is. Now would be the worst time to change the name because it would be under the presumption that UND is GUILTY of being hostile and abusive.

[aff]

When I say its a state matter i'm saying we're going through the state board of higher education for advice, it means our state seal has american indian imagery on it, not that we are using the attorney general or that the state is payin for it ya tool. We have already received multiple offers for free legal advice from lawyers around the country conerning this matter, so if we win they get a piece of the pie. Know your information before you begin to insult everyones remarks aff. No universities are going to team up on a lawsuit because each lawsuit will be contingent based on what the NCAA has told each university, no case will be exactly the same.

Calm down, pretty sure I didn't insult you in any way or form. I just asked a question, and stated my thoughts on it. Maybe you should do like I've done and take my post and highlight where I've insulted you.

Second, what you've said makes no sense. Because the north dakota state seal has american indian imagery on it, Illinios doesn't want to join UND in a law suit. I guess I'm not really seeing the correlation there. But I guess I deserve it for being such a tool. God forbid if someone has an outside view point.

[aff]

You are charged with rape, yet you are innocent. Instead of going to court to prove your innocence you should plead guilty because that would be easier.

The NCAA labeled The University of North Dakota Hostile and Abusive. The University of North Dakota is NOT Hostile and Abusive...that is what the commotion is about this whole thing is. Now would be the worst time to change the name because it would be under the presumption that UND is GUILTY of being hostile and abusive.

This isn't a criminal investigation. You act like the NCAA is the government. Its a CLUB or ASSOCIATION. You don't have constitutional rights in it, just as you aren't forced to be a member of it. You don't like what there doing, than go NAIA. They won't have a problem. I know it sucks, and I don't necessarily agree with it, but thats reality.

[PCM]

I do not believe that FSU covered all aspects of their case. I am not going back and research it for sure, but I believe that I recall there is a branch of the Seminole tribe in Oklahoma that vocally opposed FSU using Seminoles but the NCAA approved it based on the Florida tribe saying its ok.

That's not quite right. The NCAA assumed that the Oklahoma Seminole tribe was against FSU's nickname on the basis of one tribal council member who was very vocal in his opposition. The entire Oklahoma Seminole tribal council voted 18-2 to support FSU. That's what caused the NCAA to suddenly backpedal and say that the Florida Seminole tribe's support did matter after initially saying that it didn't.