Legal Fees

[Sioux-cia]

On the 10 o'clock News tonight Wayne Stenehjem said he may ask for donations to fight to keep the name. He thinks the cost would be less than $100, 000. He doesn't want the students or state to pay for the cost.

I will go on record here and now: I will donate the same amount of money to the fund that I pay for my football and hockey season tickets including the Club fee if the States Attorney asks for donations to fight to keep the name.

[RD17]

On the 10 o'clock News tonight Wayne Stenehjem said he may ask for donations to fight to keep the name. He thinks the cost would be less than $100, 000. He doesn't want the students or state to pay for the cost.

I will go on record here and now: I will donate the same amount of money to the fund that I pay for my football and hockey season tickets including the Club fee if the States Attorney asks for donations to fight to keep the name.

Interesting... where do I send the check?

[bigmrg74]

Thats a great idea there. It would be a great way of showing the NCAA how willing you guys all are to fight to keep the name. I might even kick in a few bucks myself. Heck, I did buy one of Dirty's shirts.

Also, you guys could use a good PR campain to get your side of the issue out more. perhaps get ahold of other fans of the schools that are on the banned list and those schools that were on the banned list but got to keep their names. Not naming names here, but I'm pretty sure you would get pretty darn good bang for your buck if somebody sent a couple of Dirty's shirts to those FSU Cowgirls*.

*Google is your friend, but I don't think I would do it from work.

[ScottM]

Less than a $100,000? Is he serious? Is he getting a steep discount from an AmLaw 50 shop? I'm not sure who Stenehjem's been talking to, but I hope he hasn't decided to go with some low-rent firm in Bismarck or Fargo who does PI work, Aunt Millie's estate and insurance defense work, as well as "anti trust" or enterprise contract issues and some of the other possible claims. If I give anything, I want to know who's doing the work.

[airmail]

If I give anything, I want to know who's doing the work.

I'm eager to help out, but I agree 100%.

[Supertrex]

Less than a $100,000? Is he serious? Is he getting a steep discount from an AmLaw 50 shop? I'm not sure who Stenehjem's been talking to, but I hope he hasn't decided to go with some low-rent firm in Bismarck or Fargo who does PI work, Aunt Millie's estate and insurance defense work, as well as "anti trust" or enterprise contract issues and some of the other possible claims. If I give anything, I want to know who's doing the work.

Hey...I find your post to be the typical superior, city-boy attitude (Kinda how the Gophers play hockey alot of the time). Bigger is automatically better right? You seem to assume that if a person isn't smart enough to realize the benefits of spending three hours a day trapped in his car on the freeway or waiting 90 minutes for a table on a Tuesday, he or she can be much of a professional. We're just too dumb to realize how much smarter you big city people are.

I see and hear comments like yours almost everyday when representing my clients. City lawyers talk down to me like I just fell off the beet truck. They tell their clients that the professionals out here aren't qualified. For the most part, it's a load of bull they sell to their clients so they can bill $600 an hour. In substance, it's not real except in cases where highly specialized knowledge is essential. Obviously, we would want a qualified lawyer to represent us but I highly doubt that the Sioux name issue is so complex that only a "big city" lawyer can handle it.

[Sioux-cia]

Your right. Whenever I donate money, I always research the 'cause' to make sure the majority of the money goes where it's needed, not to pay for big salaries and 'overhead'.

We've heard that there were alot of attorneys who wanted to get on board this wagon. If they're donating their fees or doing it for 'contingency', that may explain why the costs aren't higher. We'll just have to wait and see.

[jloos]

They are not stupid, the work will be done by someone qualified. This area is pretty specialized so they will likely find someone in DC or NY. As an attorney myself I can tell you $100,000 in fees is a pretty good payday for anyone. What most of these big hitter type attorneys do is pawn off the small stuff to someone local and save all of the court appearances and complex litigation for themselves.

Basically it will probably cost $500+ an hour (plus all costs) for the big time lawyer and $200 (or less) an hour for any local help. I have no idea the number of hours required for a case like this, but I cannot imagine it would be much more than 200. It is not like there will be a week long trial involved (at least I cannot see how there would be).

I agree with you Supertrex, bigger is not better. However, going after the NCAA on this issue is going to require an attorney with a specialization in Constitutional and anti trust areas. There are not too many small town attorneys specializing in these areas.

[IowaBison]

I'm an economist, not a lawyer, but when I saw the figure a minute ago I though it was missing a zero.

UND gets one shot at this deal.

This is not something to do half-assed.

[ScottM]

Hey...I find your post to be the typical superior, city-boy attitude (Kinda how the Gophers play hockey alot of the time). Bigger is automatically better right? You seem to assume that if a person isn't smart enough to realize the benefits of spending three hours a day trapped in his car on the freeway or waiting 90 minutes for a table on a Tuesday, he or she can be much of a professional. We're just too dumb to realize how much smarter you big city people are.

I see and hear comments like yours almost everyday when representing my clients. City lawyers talk down to me like I just fell off the beet truck. They tell their clients that the professionals out here aren't qualified. For the most part, it's a load of bull they sell to their clients so they can bill $600 an hour. In substance, it's not real except in cases where highly specialized knowledge is essential. Obviously, we would want a qualified lawyer to represent us but I highly doubt that the Sioux name issue is so complex that only a "big city" lawyer can handle it.

Ah yes, I forgot about all of the high-powered anti-trust specialists in Bismarck, and the IP shops that occupy floors of office space in Fargo and the First Amendment boutiques in Minot. Silly me. I suppose if you're staking your school's national reputation on fights with a national organization with deep pockets, it only makes sense to hire somebody who advertises on the back of a phone book just because they're a drinking buddy of the AG.

And speaking from my professional experience in a company that has over 400 lawyers of its own, and who supervises a number of them, as well as outside firms, you do often get what you pay for. Most firms don't charge $600-800/hour unless they have a track record of getting results.

[PCM]

We've heard that there were alot of attorneys who wanted to get on board this wagon. If they're donating their fees or doing it for 'contingency', that may explain why the costs aren't higher. We'll just have to wait and see.

I wondered about that, too. Perhaps the hundred grand covers only the costs of the AG's office, which taxpayers would normally cover. The AG's office might not have much to do if the "heavy lifting" is handled by an outside firm on a contingency or pro bono basis.

This is merely sudo-reporter speculation. I'll let the real lawyers duke it out.

[Supertrex]

I suppose if you're staking your school's national reputation on fights with a national organization with deep pockets, it only makes sense to hire somebody who advertises on the back of a phone book just because they're a drinking buddy of the AG.

Yes, I'm sure that is the exact selection process. Again, we too dumb out here to realize the importance of the issue or the process we need to take so thanks again for your help and advise. That was a close one.

And speaking from my professional experience in a company that has over 400 lawyers of its own, and who supervises a number of them, as well as outside firms, you do often get what you pay for. Most firms don't charge $600-800/hour unless they have a track record of getting results.

I'm sure you've got great experience. I'm sure the size of your firm is every indication of its quality. The track record stuff is the Kool-aid I'm referring to when the big guys start justifying their rates. Thanks for helping make my point.

[dagies]

I also thought that number sounded small.

[jloos]

Ah yes, I forgot about all of the high-powered anti-trust specialists in Bismarck, and the IP shops that occupy floors of office space in Fargo and the First Amendment boutiques in Minot. Silly me. I suppose if you're staking your school's national reputation on fights with a national organization with deep pockets, it only makes sense to hire somebody who advertises on the back of a phone book just because they're a drinking buddy of the AG.

And speaking from my professional experience in a company that has over 400 lawyers of its own, and who supervises a number of them, as well as outside firms, you do often get what you pay for. Most firms don't charge $600-800/hour unless they have a track record of getting results.

This is not always true. In Fargo the Vogel firm advertises that they are the "best" and charges like it. My boss has me as her only associate and kicks the crap out the "best" lawyers at Vogel on a regular basis.

From personal experience in Minneapolis, the bigger firms do usually have the only attorneys that specialize in anti-trust and other highly specialized areas. So I agree that in UND's case they will have to go to a bigger city to find an attorney. It is impractical for a small town (yes Fargo is still small in comparison) attorney to practice in these areas. Like I said before, Washington, DC or NYC are probably about the only places they are going to find a qualified attorney.

[IowaBison]

I thought that legitimate law firms don't need to advertise?

[SiouxMD]

Perhaps the $100,000 represents UND's share of the total litigation cost...class action suit.

[airmail]

Hey...I find your post to be the typical superior, city-boy attitude (Kinda how the Gophers play hockey alot of the time). Bigger is automatically better right? You seem to assume that if a person isn't smart enough to realize the benefits of spending three hours a day trapped in his car on the freeway or waiting 90 minutes for a table on a Tuesday, he or she can be much of a professional. We're just too dumb to realize how much smarter you big city people are.

I understand your point in all of this, but tend to agree with ScottM. I'm a licensed professional, and live in Thompson, ND... a typical small town guy. I actually believe that I am regionally the best in my field. However, I must acknowledge that there are many people with more experience than I have in specific areas. Some of my projects are specialized, and in the best interest of my clients I'll refer them to these specialized individuals. All three parties are better off in the long run.

Scott's original post has nothing to do with how long his commute is from work, nor what his bankroll looks like at the end of the day. IMO, it says we've got one shot. We are taking the NCAA to court. This is a big deal. We can't afford to f**k it up. We need the best there is in this specialized area.

If the best there is charges only 100K... fine. If the best there is happens to be located in the back room of the post office in Zap, ND... fine. Tell me he/ she's the best and I'll contribute.

We can't settle for anything less than the best.

[Supertrex]

Scott's original post has nothing to do with how long his commute is from work, and what his bankroll looks like at the end of the day. IMO, it says we've got one shot. We are taking the NCAA to court. This is a big deal. We can't afford to f**k it up. We need the best there is in this specialized area.

If the best there is charges only 100K... fine. If the best there is happens to be located in the back room of the post office in Zap, ND... fine. Tell me he/ she's the best and I'll contribute.

We can't settle for anything less than the best.

Scott's original post implied that there was nobody in ND that is qualified to do the work. I am not willing to summarily dismiss professionals working in ND just because that is where they reside. I too worked for over 10 years and received my training at one of the largest firms in the world (KPMG). I've now worked for over 25 years. When I crossed the border into ND, I did not lose that experience and knowledge. So I believe that it is possible that there is someone here in Fargo (or Bismarck or wherever) that could do the work. I can think of at least one person off the top of my head that might be qualified. Again, I'm not saying that is who should be chosen, but why dismiss them based on pure geography.

Obviously, there are more lawyers in the bigger cities that are able to specialize in particular practice areas at the exclusion of all others (I'm currently paying a lawyer in DC over $600 an hour to advise on a very specialized issue). Scott's post painted the lawyers here as a group of generalists that do divorces one day and corporate transactions the next. That is not accurate and is unfair and unprofessional. Stating that the AG would choose the firm off the back of the phone book is an insult to the AG. So, I've said my piece on this now and I'm done talking about it.

The real and most important issue is what are the chances of prevailing. Is this even a constitutional or anti-trust issue? (many of you arm chair lawyers seem to think so). I agree with all of the you that a hundred grand is NOT the number. So how much is it? And who's going to pay it? And what are our chances of prevailing? And is it worth it? If it's $100,000, let's go for it. But I would say (IMHO) that if it cost $1,000,000 to go forward with less than a 50 percent chance of winning, we're wasting our money and we should use it to choose a new name, design a new logo, procure new licensing agreements that last into perpetuity and devise a public relations campaign so that the new replaces the old ASAP...I know that is going to be a very unpopular position here so flame away...

[ScottM]

Scott's original post implied that there was nobody in ND that is qualified to do the work. I am not willing to summarily dismiss professionals working in ND just because that is where they reside.

To the contrary, my implication was not based on geography, unless one is speaking of venue selection and/or choice of law provisions that may govern any litigation. I am speaking to the fact that most ND firms/lawyers are in fact general practice shops, and very few lawyers can pay the bills practicing in only 1-2 areas of law. In fact, off the top of my head, I can think of only one guy who's not a PI lawyer who can do well in a narrow field in the state. Even most PI firms try to do everything from dog bites to med mal to car accidents. The guy that does a will one day may be arguing a DUI case the next or closing a RE deal later on. It's not a poke at ND lawyers so much as a recognition of the realities most law firms face.

The point is that we have one good shot to take, and based on what I've read and heard on/off-line there is already a very high-powered firm that has taken an interest in the case. Frankly, given the array of potential procedural and substantive issues, if we're talking $100k at the start to hire a Sidley or Covington-type partner or two to QB this game, I think it's money well spent and probably damn cheap too.

[redwing77]

I have a question:

Why does it have to be UND alone? Is there a way to get UIUC and UIP involved in the lawsuit? Maybe a nice old class action? With UIUC's size, they may be of vast assistance in a variety of ways?

Who knows... maybe we can call up FSU or the Florida congressmen and get their material they were threatening the NCAA with when the initial charges came out?

[larsensa]

I am not sure what I think about UND doing this. It is kinda like saying, put your money where your mouth is fans. I am impressed by that part! On the other hand, UND makes a ton of money off using the Sioux name and logo with merchandising and ad revenue, etc... In my opinion, UND should be using that money to pay the legal fees because that money only exists because of the Sioux merchandise and corporate advertising UND gets using the Sioux name and logo.

UND may also be trying to determine how much they are willing to spend to keep the name. They do have to be mindful of the fact they may have to change the name and there will be a ton of expenses involved in doing that as well.

Or, maybe I have no clue what I am talking about but decided to provide a different perspective anyway!

[siouxtatoo42]

I am not sure what I think about UND doing this. It is kinda like saying, put your money where your mouth is fans. I am impressed by that part! On the other hand, UND makes a ton of money off using the Sioux name and logo with merchandising and ad revenue, etc... In my opinion, UND should be using that money to pay the legal fees because that money only exists because of the Sioux merchandise and corporate advertising UND gets using the Sioux name and logo.

UND may also be trying to determine how much they are willing to spend to keep the name. They do have to be mindful of the fact they may have to change the name and there will be a ton of expenses involved in doing that as well.

Or, maybe I have no clue what I am talking about but decided to provide a different perspective anyway!

especially when nobody is buying the merch at first and continues to wear their sioux gear to the events in a slight form of protest to the actual changing of the name. my 0.02

i do think that UND needs to, at a very minimum, take a stab at suing the NCAA for their stupidity and sheer bullying because they think that they can get away with it. It's about time someone stood up to them on this issue and handed them their ass on a platter. Since court is what it's going to take, that's the route they go. don't bow out before all options are exhausted.

[ScottM]

I am not sure what I think about UND doing this. It is kinda like saying, put your money where your mouth is fans. I am impressed by that part! On the other hand, UND makes a ton of money off using the Sioux name and logo with merchandising and ad revenue, etc... In my opinion, UND should be using that money to pay the legal fees because that money only exists because of the Sioux merchandise and corporate advertising UND gets using the Sioux name and logo.

Not to mention all of the licensing fees the NC$$ has made from UND having a "hostile or abusive" name/logo. Looks like both sides with be feeding off the teat.

[Sioux-cia]

I am not sure what I think about UND doing this. It is kinda like saying, put your money where your mouth is fans. I am impressed by that part! On the other hand, UND makes a ton of money off using the Sioux name and logo with merchandising and ad revenue, etc... In my opinion, UND should be using that money to pay the legal fees because that money only exists because of the Sioux merchandise and corporate advertising UND gets using the Sioux name and logo.

UND may also be trying to determine how much they are willing to spend to keep the name. They do have to be mindful of the fact they may have to change the name and there will be a ton of expenses involved in doing that as well.

Or, maybe I have no clue what I am talking about but decided to provide a different perspective anyway!

UND isn't asking for donations. Wayne Stenehjm, ND States Attorney, said he may ask for donations. UND was told by the SBoHE that they would support UND in a legal fight with the NCAA. But Wayne is concerned about asking students and tax payers to pay for this fight. Yes, it does come down to put your money where your mouth is.

[HockeyMom]

The AG's office's job is to represent the State. If they represent the University (as the State) in this matter, it's not like the attorneys are racking up hourly wages and sending the State a bill. They're already getting paid.

That said, I hope like hell they hire the job out to someone that specializes in Anti-Trust Laws.