Why do we want to honor the Sioux nation?

[82SiouxGuy]

I did speak in too broad of terms when I made these comments. In terms of Sioux Nation support I am not aware of any support UND has in writing though. Does UND have anything other than the letter from Archie Fool Bear which was basically struck down that indicates support from the tribes? Without letters of support, I don't think we do have ANY support which is why I made my previous comment.

When I said UND hasn't listened to them I was referring to the fact that the Sioux have been fairly unsuportive of UND using the name for many years and have been asking UND not to keep the name but UND has kept the name and logo, etc.. anyway. This is what I meant by UND not listening.

As has been noted many times on this board, the Spirit Lake Tribe passed a resolution in 2000 that said they would support the nickname as long as UND worked to establish tolerance and fight racism. They told the NC$$ that they would not be changing their resolution and repeated that to President Kupchella earlier this year. That resolution is in writing. The NC$$ does not consider this good enough to qualify as acceptance by the Sioux Nation. Archie Fool Bear's letter indicates that there is a great deal of support for UND at the grassroots level on the Standing Rock Reservation even though the Tribal Council has not changed their stance so far. A segment of Sioux tribal members have been against the use of the nickname for several years, including several tribal leaders. But there has been no indication that I have seen that a simple majority of tribal members (or even a large minority segment) are against UND's use of the Fighting Sioux nickname.

[larsensa]

As has been noted many times on this board, the Spirit Lake Tribe passed a resolution in 2000 that said they would support the nickname as long as UND worked to establish tolerance and fight racism. They told the NC$$ that they would not be changing their resolution and repeated that to President Kupchella earlier this year. That resolution is in writing. The NC$$ does not consider this good enough to qualify as acceptance by the Sioux Nation. Archie Fool Bear's letter indicates that there is a great deal of support for UND at the grassroots level on the Standing Rock Reservation even though the Tribal Council has not changed their stance so far. A segment of Sioux tribal members have been against the use of the nickname for several years, including several tribal leaders. But there has been no indication that I have seen that a simple majority of tribal members (or even a large minority segment) are against UND's use of the Fighting Sioux nickname.

All I am saying is that UND shouldn't have to rely on a 6 year old letter. The support should be OBVIOUS and OVERWHELMING support in my opinion and I don't think UND has that right now. I think the Seminoles had obvious support which is part of the reason they had no problem with the NCAA. Am I wrong?

[PCM]

I think the Seminoles had obvious support which is part of the reason they had no problem with the NCAA. Am I wrong?

Obvious, yes. Overwhelming? Who knows? Has anyone ever polled members of the Seminole tribes to find out how many of them are for FSU's use of their name and how many are against it? If 40 percent of them are against it, is that a significant enough percentage to disregard the tribal council's support?

What if an independent scientific poll of enrolled members of the Sioux tribes in North Dakota showed that 60 percent or more of them supported UND's use of the Fighting Sioux nickname? What if, in spite of that, the tribal councils continued to vote in opposition to UND? Do you disregard what the majority of the Sioux people think and go with what the tribal governments think?

You continue to say that UND has no support from any Sioux. That's simply not true. If the Standing Rock tribe wanted to rescind its past support, it could easily do so, but it hasn't. There are also many members of the Sioux tribe who have supported UND both publicly and privately. How you can continue to denigrate their efforts by saying that UND has no support is beyond me.

[tony]

Maybe you should be asking yourselves, "Why would the Sioux want to honor UND by letting them use the Sioux name?"

I'm thinking that approach has a lot better chance of leading to a lasting solution.

[Shawn-O]

Flip-Flop on Florida State

Last Friday, in announcing how it would handle appeals, the NCAA said a

[larsensa]

Obvious, yes. Overwhelming? Who knows? Has anyone ever polled members of the Seminole tribes to find out how many of them are for FSU's use of their name and how many are against it? If 40 percent of them are against it, is that a significant enough percentage to disregard the tribal council's support?

What if an independent scientific poll of enrolled members of the Sioux tribes in North Dakota showed that 60 percent or more of them supported UND's use of the Fighting Sioux nickname? What if, in spite of that, the tribal councils continued to vote in opposition to UND? Do you disregard what the majority of the Sioux people think and go with what the tribal governments think?

You continue to say that UND has no support from any Sioux. That's simply not true. If the Standing Rock tribe wanted to rescind its past support, it could easily do so, but it hasn't. There are also many members of the Sioux tribe who have supported UND both publicly and privately. How you can continue to denigrate their efforts by saying that UND has no support is beyond me.

Listen, I am not saying UND has NO Sioux support. I am just saying it doesn't seem like it is OBVIOUS support based on the lack of supporting letters, etc... I would also think that there would be more of an uproar by the Sioux that support UND using the name if one existed. Maybe I am missing something but the recent letter to the NCAA from Ron His Horse is Thunder doesn't seem to back up what you are saying. Ron His Horse is Thunder references Standing Rock Resolution 438-05 which was voted on September 15, 2005 in his letter to the NCAA on April 28, 2005 that says they do not support UND using the name. What am I missing?

Here is a link to the letter:http://www2.ncaa.org/portal/media_and_even...ribe_letter.pdf

I don't know what process the Sioux nation uses to elect their officials but if they didn't agree with the way they are being represented by the government of Standing Rock I would think that those that support UND using the name would create a petition and send it to the NCAA to show their OVERWHELMING or MAJOR support for UND using their name? I haven't seen that yet.

[82SiouxGuy]

Listen, I am not saying UND has NO Sioux support. I am just saying it doesn't seem like it is OBVIOUS support based on the lack of supporting letters, etc... I would also think that there would be more of an uproar by the Sioux that support UND using the name if one existed. Maybe I am missing something but the recent letter to the NCAA from Ron His Horse is Thunder doesn't seem to back up what you are saying. Ron His Horse is Thunder references Standing Rock Resolution 438-05 which was voted on September 15, 2005 in his letter to the NCAA on April 28, 2005 that says they do not support UND using the name. What am I missing?

Here is a link to the letter:http://www2.ncaa.org/portal/media_and_even...ribe_letter.pdf

I don't know what process the Sioux nation uses to elect their officials but if they didn't agree with the way they are being represented by the government of Standing Rock I would think that those that support UND using the name would create a petition and send it to the NCAA to show their OVERWHELMING or MAJOR support for UND using their name? I haven't seen that yet.

You did say that UND has NO Sioux support earlier in this thread. And that isn't true. The Spirit Lake Tribal Council doesn't care about issuing a new statement because they have already spoken. It doesn't matter to them that the resolution was 6 years ago. They won't pass another resolution unless it is to change the present resolution. And we will never get a large number of Sioux tribal members writing letters of support or marching to the REA in support of the nickname because it is not a huge issue with most tribe members. I believe that most tribe members are more concerned with issues like food, housing, alcohol problems, education and so on. You know, the issues of real life. So I would not expect to see OVERWHELMING or MAJOR support even if 100% of the tribe members supported the name.

The people that are against the name are a much more vocal group and always will be, even if they are a very small minority. That is PCM's point, from all indications it is a minority of tribe members that are against the nickname. According to Archie Fool Bear's letter a majority of tribe members in 6 out of 8 districts at Standing Rock support the nickname. And yet the Tribal Council has been against the nickname in recent years and may vote against it again this week. Should UND be forced to change the nickname to appease a minority? How significant a number does it need to be to give them that power? What if only a majority of the tribal council wants to have the nickname changed and more than 90% of the tribe members doesn't? Does anyone really know what the actual numbers are on either side of the issue?

[Sioux-cia]

You did say that UND has NO Sioux support earlier in this thread. And that isn't true. The Spirit Lake Tribal Council doesn't care about issuing a new statement because they have already spoken. It doesn't matter to them that the resolution was 6 years ago. They won't pass another resolution unless it is to change the present resolution. And we will never get a large number of Sioux tribal members writing letters of support or marching to the REA in support of the nickname because it is not a huge issue with most tribe members. I believe that most tribe members are more concerned with issues like food, housing, alcohol problems, education and so on. You know, the issues of real life. So I would not expect to see OVERWHELMING or MAJOR support even if 100% of the tribe members supported the name.

The people that are against the name are a much more vocal group and always will be, even if they are a very small minority. That is PCM's point, from all indications it is a minority of tribe members that are against the nickname. According to Archie Fool Bear's letter a majority of tribe members in 6 out of 8 districts at Standing Rock support the nickname. And yet the Tribal Council has been against the nickname in recent years and may vote against it again this week. Should UND be forced to change the nickname to appease a minority? How significant a number does it need to be to give them that power? What if only a majority of the tribal council wants to have the nickname changed and more than 90% of the tribe members doesn't? Does anyone really know what the actual numbers are on either side of the issue?

Well said.

[KnowtheFacts]

I had actually just changed my post but you replied before the change was made. I changed the school wanting to use the Jesus mascot,etc... in my example to an atheist school. I made this change to make it more similiar to the UND situation since the majority of students and alum, etc... are not Native American/Sioux.

Holy Cross is a Catholic school so it makes sense they would be called The Crusaders and emphasize the cross, etc.... A Christian college, Wheaton College, in the state I now live changed it's name from The Crusaders to the Thunder because they didn't want to emphasize the things that happened during the Christian Crusades and because the name offended a lot of people I guess.

Um... How come it is okay for a Christian school and not an atheist school to use Jesus?

[The Sicatoka]

Um... How come it is okay for a Christian school and not an atheist school to use Jesus?

As a Christian I'd find both the positives and negatives in it.

As a First Amendment believing American I'd support their right to say it.

[Sioux-cia]

Um... How come it is okay for a Christian school and not an atheist school to use Jesus?

An atheist school is entitled to use any name they want.

Hacking into someones account, posing as that person, posting racially inflammatory remarks while posing as that person, changing someone's password, changing someone's email contact address, sending PM's while posing as someone else, stealing and posting personal messages from the 'hacked' person's account are not ok.

[KnowtheFacts]

An atheist school is entitled to use any name they want.

Hacking into someones account, posing as that person, posting racially inflammatory remarks while posing as that person, changing someone's password, changing someone's email contact address, sending PM's while posing as someone else, stealing and posting personal messages from the 'hacked' person's account are not ok.

WTF?

[siouxtatoo42]

WTF?

Graham Kracker took some liberties

[larsensa]

An atheist school is entitled to use any name they want.

Hacking into someones account, posing as that person, posting racially inflammatory remarks while posing as that person, changing someone's password, changing someone's email contact address, sending PM's while posing as someone else, stealing and posting personal messages from the 'hacked' person's account are not ok.

Your not accusing me of being Graham Kracker are you?

If you are even comparing me to him I have been misunderstood. If you knew me you would be surprised that I am defending those that oppose UND using the name. I am a huge Sioux hockey fan and I have spent more than half my life yelling LET'S GO SIOUX and Home of the SIOUX at the end of the national anthem. I have three Sioux hockey Jerseys and 5 Sioux hockey hats, a replica of the Ralph, a lighted SIOUX goalie mask hanging on my wall, and all kinds of other Sioux stuff. I have a mini-shrine in my office at home and my car wreaks of FIGHTING SIOUX pride that I have wanted to show off in the Chicago area and everywhere else! My friends in Chicago know me as a SIOUX HOCKEY FAN!

But, as I have listened to the debate over the Sioux name for most my life I have started to wonder if UND really should have the name and logo. Why? Because I haven't seen enough vocal or written support for the name from the Sioux. Plus, I have heard the way people talk about those that oppose UND using the name and the remarks usually aren't very nice. They aren't the kind of remarks that support the position that UND honors the Sioux, they are usually pretty demeaning remarks about the Sioux people. In my opinion, I don't think very many people in GF really, deep down, honor the Sioux?

Like I said before, I think most people that want to keep the name want to preserve the history and traditions and they don't want the people that oppose the name to "win" the debate. I don't want to see the name and traditions go either and have a hard time thinking about what it would be like if UND doesn't have the name anymore. If UND is able to win in court against the NCAA, which will probably only happen if UND gets more support from the Sioux nation, I would be happy if UND kept the name. The one thing that really bothers me about this scenario though is UND will be putting a lot of control in the hands of the NCAA and the Sioux nation.

If we changed the name, I think the power and control would be back in the hands of UND where it belongs.

[Sioux-cia]

Your not accusing me of being Graham Kracker are you?

That response was intended for KnowTheFacts, not you. You are certainly entitled to your opinion!! I don't agree with much of it but I will not berate your for our 'difference'.

[PCM]

Like I said before, I think most people that want to keep the name want to preserve the history and traditions and they don't want the people that oppose the name to "win" the debate.

As I and others have tried to explain to you, there's a lot more at stake than that, but I'm no longer going to belabor the point.

[larsensa]

Um... How come it is okay for a Christian school and not an atheist school to use Jesus?

Go back and read my posts. I said, if an atheist school wanted to do that it would be their right to do so but I don't think they would receive very much support from Christians which would then lead to them not receiving much support from the NCAA. I am sure the NCAA would determine they were "hostile" and "abusive" for the same reasons they made that decision about UND using the Sioux name. Maybe not though, Jesus was not an American Indian which seems to be the only group the NCAA is interested in protecting.

[Nodaker]

Your not accusing me of being Graham Kracker are you?

If you are even comparing me to him I have been misunderstood. If you knew me you would be surprised that I am defending those that oppose UND using the name. I am a huge Sioux hockey fan and I have spent more than half my life yelling LET'S GO SIOUX and Home of the SIOUX at the end of the national anthem. I have three Sioux hockey Jerseys and 5 Sioux hockey hats, a replica of the Ralph, a lighted SIOUX goalie mask hanging on my wall, and all kinds of other Sioux stuff. I have a mini-shrine in my office at home and my car wreaks of FIGHTING SIOUX pride that I have wanted to show off in the Chicago area and everywhere else! My friends in Chicago know me as a SIOUX HOCKEY FAN!

But, as I have listened to the debate over the Sioux name for most my life I have started to wonder if UND really should have the name and logo. Why? Because I haven't seen enough vocal or written support for the name from the Sioux. Plus, I have heard the way people talk about those that oppose UND using the name and the remarks usually aren't very nice. They aren't the kind of remarks that support the position that UND honors the Sioux, they are usually pretty demeaning remarks about the Sioux people. In my opinion, I don't think very many people in GF really, deep down, honor the Sioux?

Like I said before, I think most people that want to keep the name want to preserve the history and traditions and they don't want the people that oppose the name to "win" the debate. I don't want to see the name and traditions go either and have a hard time thinking about what it would be like if UND doesn't have the name anymore. If UND is able to win in court against the NCAA, which will probably only happen if UND gets more support from the Sioux nation, I would be happy if UND kept the name. The one thing that really bothers me about this scenario though is UND will be putting a lot of control in the hands of the NCAA and the Sioux nation.

If we changed the name, I think the power and control would be back in the hands of UND where it belongs.

Why would the support of the Sioux nation have anything to do with if we win in court or not?

If you want the power back in the hands of UND you do not cave to the NC$$. To get the power back you beat the NC$$ in court by proving they over stepped their authority in making the rule and then also show they have applied it inconsistently.

Go Sioux!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[larsensa]

As I and others have tried to explain to you, there's a lot more at stake than that, but I'm no longer going to belabor the point.

I know there is. The NCAA has been inconsistent in their rulings and they have used their power in places they don't belong. I should've included that in what I have said. Isn't there a way that the 1250 + NCAA member organizations could vote on this issue? I think that is what many others here have already asked or said. Based on what it says on the NCAA website that is the way they CLAIM things are done.

A lot of people are confused about what the NCAA is. To help reduce that confusion, this Web site uses the following terms:

The "membership" or "members" -- The colleges, universities and conferences that make up the NCAA. The members appoint volunteer representatives that serve on committees which introduce and vote on rules called bylaws. The members also establish programs to govern, promote and further the purposes and goals of intercollegiate athletics.

The "national office" -- Approximately 350 paid professionals that implement the rules and programs established by the membership. The national office staff is located primarily at the headquarters office in Indianapolis, Indiana.

The "Association" - The entire organization comprised of members and staff. Many believe the Association rules college athletics; however, it is actually a bottom-up organization in which the members rule the Association

http://www.ncaa.org/wps/portal/!ut/p/k..._ncaa/overview/

The NCAA is full of CRAP on their website. How has the American Indian situation been a bottom-up decision? I have never heard anyone say that the

members voted and ruled on this decision. The NCAA Executive Committee ruled on the decision. I do hope UND takes them to court and wins. I think it would

also be good if the members voted on it to see what the ENTIRE membership thinks. If a majority oppose teams using American Indian names, etc... then it

would be hard for the schools effected not to comply.

[larsensa]

After reading this in the Illinois tennis thread:

http://www.house.gov/apps/list/speech/il15...ief_5_4_06.html

I feel like I have mud on my face now! I totally agree with what has been said in this link.

I guess I have been a bit upset and saddened by the whole Sioux name issue and the things the NCAA has been doing. It

caused me to wonder why UND would want to honor the Sioux by having their name and traditions associated with UND if

they weren't helping UND more in the debate. I hope this new legislation helps UND keep the Sioux name without being

penalized by the NCAA!

I am going to shut up about the nickname issue now! Sorry for acting so crazy my fellow FIGHTING SIOUX fans!!

I hope you will accept me back!!

[melsiouxfan]

After reading this in the Illinois tennis thread:

http://www.house.gov/apps/list/speech/il15...ief_5_4_06.html

WHOOOOO HOOOOO! GO CONGRESS!!!!

I feel like I have mud on my face now! I totally agree with what has been said in this link.

I guess I have been a bit upset and saddened by the whole Sioux name issue and the things the NCAA has been doing. It

caused me to wonder why UND would want to honor the Sioux by having their name and traditions associated with UND if

they weren't helping UND more in the debate. I hope this new legislation helps UND keep the Sioux name without being

penalized by the NCAA!

I am going to shut up about the nickname issue now! Sorry for acting so crazy my fellow FIGHTING SIOUX fans!!

I hope you will accept me back!!

Since you apologized so nicely--ok

[Sioux-cia]

After reading this in the Illinois tennis thread:

http://www.house.gov/apps/list/speech/il15...ief_5_4_06.html

I feel like I have mud on my face now! I totally agree with what has been said in this link.

I guess I have been a bit upset and saddened by the whole Sioux name issue and the things the NCAA has been doing. It

caused me to wonder why UND would want to honor the Sioux by having their name and traditions associated with UND if

they weren't helping UND more in the debate. I hope this new legislation helps UND keep the Sioux name without being

penalized by the NCAA!

I am going to shut up about the nickname issue now! Sorry for acting so crazy my fellow FIGHTING SIOUX fans!!

I hope you will accept me back!!

No one ever ousted you! I don't know anyone on this forum who agrees with anyone else 100% of the time. Those of us who want to keep the name and logo don't even agree on many aspects of the issue. That's what it's all about bro'>> freedom to express yourself, have your own opinions and make your own decisions

[HockeyMom]

I am going to shut up about the nickname issue now! Sorry for acting so crazy my fellow FIGHTING SIOUX fans!!

I hope you will accept me back!!

Well, since you saw the light......

[larsensa]

I had an interesting talk with my dad the other night. One of his female employees is a Sioux indian. While he was interviewing her they ended up talking about her heritage and it turned out that her grandfather is the picture you see on the highway patrol cars in ND. She brought pictures in to show my dad more and a coin with her grandfather's picture on it that the state patrol or ND government had given her grandfather. While they were talking about all of this stuff she ended up telling my dad that it is a great honor to have UND using the Sioux name and that the majority of Sioux support UND using the name.

[katohtr]

Come to think of it, the Sioux were kicked out of the northern forests by the Chippewa, often had problems at the hands of the Pawnee and Blackfeet, got the credit for Little Big Horn while the Cheyenne did most of the fighting, and eventually were defeated by the US Army. If the name changes, perhaps we should look for a winner.

That's HILARIOUS!!! Great post!