Olympic Hockey

[NDFlyer]

I have never said that we should have a team of college players playing against a team of NHLer's. That is not the point I am trying to make at all. What we have been trying to say, or at least what I have been trying to say and I believe that MafiaMan has as well, and you keep overlooking, is that we need to take our MOST TALENTED YOUNG TEAM OF NHLer'S to the Olympics. Yes, we need some maturity and leadership with a couple of veterans, but I think (and I could be wrong) that a Zach Parise (he is playing in the NHL!) would have been a better player and played with more fire than Mike Modano. . . who was too busy pouting about having to make his own plane/hotel reservations.

Zach Parise? You see, I knew it was only a matter of time before someone said this. I understand he is GOD around here but in the large scheme of things? At THIS stage of his career? He would have been no more effective than any other USA forward.

[Tsiouxnami]

Zach Parise? You see, I knew it was only a matter of time before someone said this. I understand he is GOD around here but in the large scheme of things? At THIS stage of his career? He would have been no more effective than any other USA forward.

Parise was used as an example of YOUTH! Insert a different name then for all I care. In a tournament where a lot of games are played in a short amount of time, I say that YOUTH bounces back and has the ability to play better over the long haul. Again, my point is NOT to put college players in to play Malkin and Ovechkin. . . my point is get rid of the over the hill primadonas and try something new - go with the YOUTH movement and see what happens.

[MafiaMan]

My point is that the US is not churning out world class players on pace with some of the countries in this tournament.

This I agree with 100%.

[NDFlyer]

[Tsiouxnami]

This I agree with 100%.

I agree 100% as well. We never have and probably never will. Hockey is not the be-all and end-all in this country like it is other places. In my opinion, that has a lot to do with it. More kids grow up wanting to play basketball, football or baseball.

[MafiaMan]

Again, my point is NOT to put college players in to play Malkin and Ovechkin. . . my point is get rid of the over the hill primadonas and try something new - go with the YOUTH movement and see what happens.

This backs up NDFlyer's point, Tsiouxnami. Why shouldn't our best 21-23 year old college players be able to compete with 19 year old Malkin? Phil Kessel, anyone? That's laughable. NDFlyer is correct...the rest of the world is churning out better hockey players than we are. That's a fact.

[MafiaMan]

1-4-1. My point earlier was what would the difference between 0-6 and 1-4-1? Not much. However, with a younger team, the potential would be there for 2010. Instead, Team USA has to look into its cupboard and replace about a dozen players. Unless you would like to see a 48 year old Chelios, a 39 year old Modano, and other senior citizens in Vancouver in four years.

[Tsiouxnami]

This backs up NDFlyer's point, Tsiouxnami. Why shouldn't our best 21-23 year old college players be able to compete with 19 year old Malkin? Phil Kessel, anyone? That's laughable. NDFlyer is correct...the rest of the world is churning out better hockey players than we are. That's a fact.

See my last post.

[MafiaMan]

See my last post.

LOL...the simultaneous posting is causing trouble. I think NDFlyer would be surprised to know that we agree for the most part on things. He is reading too much into the WCHA and college kid thing though.

Look at the NBA. Does David Stern want to win the next Olympics? Then send the Detroit Pistons.

[Tsiouxnami]

This backs up NDFlyer's point, Tsiouxnami. Why shouldn't our best 21-23 year old college players be able to compete with 19 year old Malkin? Phil Kessel, anyone? That's laughable. NDFlyer is correct...the rest of the world is churning out better hockey players than we are. That's a fact.

Difference? Let's see, playing high school, juniors, college, NHL (probably being somewhat coddled along the way) and/or having your talent recognized then being taken away from your parents at the age of 12, put in a sort of hockey military academy and being groomed to be the next big thing. While I don't say this is the case with them all, I say it has some bearing on things.

[siouxtatoo42]

I agree 100% as well. We never have and probably never will. Hockey is not the be-all and end-all in this country like it is other places. In my opinion, that has a lot to do with it. More kids grow up wanting to play basketball, football or baseball.

for most of the country, it isn't winter 8 months out of the year like it is up here . secondly, more kids want to play basketball as their winter sports because mom and dad can't afford for them to play hockey. as much as it pains me to say, hockey is an expensive sport, and the travel that can be involved is something that most parents don't want to do or try and afford, and it sucks cuz there could be soooo many more talented kids out there who will never be able to find out just how good they are.

[siouxtatoo42]

Difference? Let's see, playing high school, juniors, college, NHL (probably being somewhat coddled along the way) and/or having your talent recognized then being taken away from your parents at the age of 12, put in a sort of hockey military academy and being groomed to be the next big thing. While I don't say this is the case with them all, I say it has some bearing on things.

i'm sure ovechkin and the like aren't complaining, mostly because they have been taught not too, but also because of the love of the game, the dream of making it, and the fact that they can now feed entire cities in russia for a month and not feel the dent in their pocket book. these kids are hero's in their country...ours are pissy prima donna's and looked at as dumb winey jocks in our country.

[Walsh Hall]

Our players are more geared for the NHL game than the Olympic game. I'm guessing that the euros and russians grow up playing on the big ice. Kids here don't do that.

The transition from NHL ice to Olympic is a big one. It would be like NFL players playing in the CFL. Some of the NFL players (linemen most likely) would struggle. This style of hockey is different and it certainly favors the teams that play a style more suited for the ice.

That said, the US is fine. The next international competition will be the new begining with the new group. Heck, the US and Canada played for the gold not long ago.

The Russia and Euros were always considered soft in the NHL when the games mattered. That was true because of the style they grew up playing and their lack of physical presence. Things are changing now and the best 10-14 year olds in Euro probably dream of the NHL, but for now their game is still better suited for this competition. If the Olympics were played on the smaller ice I'd bet the results would be different.

[MafiaMan]

Difference? Let's see, playing high school, juniors, college, NHL (probably being somewhat coddled along the way) and/or having your talent recognized then being taken away from your parents at the age of 12, put in a sort of hockey military academy and being groomed to be the next big thing. While I don't say this is the case with them all, I say it has some bearing on things.

Living in the Twin Cities and watching how some of the parents treat their kids when it comes to shuffling them around to schools like Bloomington Jefferson and suddenly the ultra-hot-ticket-school-of-the-past-few-years Holy Angels Academy, not to mention heading to Michigan to school...I'd say there's not a lot of difference between the systems you're comparing.

[Old Barn Guy]

I have been watching international hockey since the early 70's. I have to say that the Canadian team's performances were the most boring and unimaginative I have ever seen by Team Canada. While the US team only won one game, at least they generated offensive chances, and against some of the vary teams that the Canadians could not even score against (Finland and Russia).

Ever since the WJC in Vancouver, I have had a rethinking of my feeling towards Team Canada (I've always pulled for them, sometimes even against the USA--back in the first Canada Cup in 1976--when the US really had no chance of beating the USSR, but Canada did). Those jerks in Vancouver who pulled for the Russians against the US got some of their own medicine yesterday, I'm sure. But no matter what may have transpired in Vancouver, I could not bring myself to pull for the Russians against Canada.

I will add that it is too bad that the US didn't get to play the Canadians this Olympics. Based on what I saw, the US would have probably beaten Canada. I base that on the fact that the US was close to winning their games against the Finns and the Russians, where I felt that the Canadians only showed fleeting moments of being competitive against those two international powerhouses.

I don't know what the solution for the US team is to be, but I do know that any team that could leave a natural talent like Sydney Crosby off from its roster in favor of a "registered goon" like Bertuzzi probably doesn't deserve anyone's sympathy. On a large ice surface, with the tight officiating, what more could you want in a hockey player than what Crosby has? Too bad the US couldn't have suited him up, I'm sure we could have found a spot for him.

I will close with a couple of comments about the play of Jason Blake. I do not intend this to be in any way negative toward Jason. I thought he was one of the top players on the US roster and of the entire field of teams. I know I may be partisan towards him because of his UND connection and that I know him, but really, who was always in the fracas, forechecking like a mad man, causing things to happen for the US? It was consistently Jason! The only fault I can find is that he just could not get the puck to go in the net. He easily could have had about a half dozen goals with any luck. A coach really can't find fault with a player who generates so much offensively and creates chances for his team. Sometimes you just need a bit of luck to go with all of your hard work. Jason and his teammates deserved a better fate.

Congrats to Jason on representing his country and UND with the energy and enthusiasm that we were fortunate to witness when he was playing for UND.

[stickboy1956]

Our players are more geared for the NHL game than the Olympic game. I'm guessing that the euros and russians grow up playing on the big ice. Kids here don't do that.

The transition from NHL ice to Olympic is a big one. It would be like NFL players playing in the CFL. Some of the NFL players (linemen most likely) would struggle. This style of hockey is different and it certainly favors the teams that play a style more suited for the ice.

That said, the US is fine. The next international competition will be the new begining with the new group. Heck, the US and Canada played for the gold not long ago.

The Russia and Euros were always considered soft in the NHL when the games mattered. That was true because of the style they grew up playing and their lack of physical presence. Things are changing now and the best 10-14 year olds in Euro probably dream of the NHL, but for now their game is still better suited for this competition. If the Olympics were played on the smaller ice I'd bet the results would be different.

Wrong - Ovechkin looked pretty good at the Ralph last year - the same for Malkin in Vancouver this year. Also look at the NHL scoring leaders - lots of Euros (Jagr, Kovalchuk, Ovechkin, Alfredsson, Datsyuk, Hossa, etc.)

The NHL rule changes have allowed the highly skilled Euro's to shine this year, for the better of the game. They have exposed the lack of focus USA Hockey/Hockey Canada have regarding skill development. I heard one NHL asst. GM talk about why the Euro's are developing so many talented players and his comment is that in Europe, there is much more unstructed ice time and very few games for players U14 and below. We in North America are fixated on AAA spring and fall teams, and Ann Arbor hockey factories, and not giving our kids a chance to really develop their skills properly.

[Tsiouxnami]

Wrong - Ovechkin looked pretty good at the Ralph last year - the same for Malkin in Vancouver this year. Also look at the NHL scoring leaders - lots of Euros (Jagr, Kovalchuk, Ovechkin, Alfredsson, Datsyuk, Hossa, etc.)

The NHL rule changes have allowed the highly skilled Euro's to shine this year, for the better of the game. They have exposed the lack of focus USA Hockey/Hockey Canada have regarding skill development. I heard one NHL asst. GM talk about why the Euro's are developing so many talented players and his comment is that in Europe, there is much more unstructed ice time and very few games for players U14 and below. We in North America are fixated on AAA spring and fall teams, and Ann Arbor hockey factories, and not giving our kids a chance to really develop their skills properly.

Strength of skills is HUGE! Many Euros grow up not touching a puck until they are at about a US PeeWee level. They work on skating skills - which, in my opinion, is why European skaters are so hard to knock off the puck. In the US we are more concerned that kids at a Mite level are onside/offside - when in reality, they lack the skating skills to GET onside, even if they want to.

[NDFlyer]

I totally agree with stickboy on this one especially the structured ice time vs unstructured ice time issue. Kids around here spend way more time traveling than they do on the ice and that includes practicing and games. To me, a 10 year old kid would benefit more from staying at home and spending several hours on the ice having fun than he would be traveling to/from Duluth for a couple of games over the weekend. It is certain that games are important but learn the fundamentals first. Frankly, I blame the parents.

It seems to me that the 8, 9 and 10 year old kids around here don't spend a whole lot of time on the ice just having fun, skating around playing wide open pond hockey. My bro-in-law in the Twin Cities has his 4-5 year old kids in organized hockey----which every red blooded parent in MN/ND does....but they have too many damn coaches on the ice and they are having these poor kids running drills. LOL! Shouldn't they learn how to skate and handle the damn puck before they start running drills?

Who knows. We all have different opinions.

[MafiaMan]

I heard one NHL asst. GM talk about why the Euro's are developing so many talented players and his comment is that in Europe, there is much more unstructed ice time and very few games for players U14 and below. We in North America are fixated on AAA spring and fall teams, and Ann Arbor hockey factories, and not giving our kids a chance to really develop their skills properly.

All hail stickboy1956! I couldn't agree more. Youth coaches in the US in ALL SPORTS are so fixated in victory that it gets in the way of teaching kids skills. One only needs to look at basketball to see how bad that problem is there. No one understands the fundamentals of basketball anymore, it's all about who is going to get poster-ized on a dunk on ESPN at 10:00 pm.

[Canuck]

Lost in all of this furor and disappointment over Team USA's finish is the lack of big picture perspective. This team never SHOULD HAVE BEEN EXPECTED TO MEDAL. However, I don't believe there is necessarily anything WRONG with USA Hockey right now. It is simply "in-between" generations right now.

Look, let's not forget that for the better part of a decade, the Modanos, Weights, Guerins, Tkachuks, Leetchs, Richters, Hatchers brought USA Hockey to new heights on the international level. So much so that fans are now disappointed when they don't win a gold. Man, I remember growing up watching Canada (now World) Cups where the Americans had players like Chris freaking Nilan on their roster. This organization has grown leaps and bounds since then.

The only problem is that those players above have either retired or are near retirement, and the next generation of stars isn't quite ready yet. But they WILL be heard from by 2010 (assuming NHL players still take part in the Olympics).

There is a new generation on the way and it includes players like Phil Kessel, Zach Parise, Ryan Miller, Jack Johnson, Ryan Suter...

Believe me, there was this kind of uproar TIMES 1,000 in the late 90s when Canada failed to medal at the 98 Olympics and went a couple of years without winning gold at World Juniors. It was coast-to-coast national panic, no exaggeration. But I would say things took care of themselves just fine.

These things are cyclical, especially when you consider how rapidly other countries are improving.

[The Sicatoka]

USA Hockey should have sent the team they sent to Vancouver in December to Turin (Torino).

At least then "1-4-1" would seem not quite as hideous.

[stickboy1956]

I totally agree with stickboy on this one especially the structured ice time vs unstructured ice time issue. Kids around here spend way more time traveling than they do on the ice and that includes practicing and games. To me, a 10 year old kid would benefit more from staying at home and spending several hours on the ice having fun than he would be traveling to/from Duluth for a couple of games over the weekend. It is certain that games are important but learn the fundamentals first. Frankly, I blame the parents.

It seems to me that the 8, 9 and 10 year old kids around here don't spend a whole lot of time on the ice just having fun, skating around playing wide open pond hockey. My bro-in-law in the Twin Cities has his 4-5 year old kids in organized hockey----which every red blooded parent in MN/ND does....but they have too many damn coaches on the ice and they are having these poor kids running drills. LOL! Shouldn't they learn how to skate and handle the damn puck before they start running drills?

Who knows. We all have different opinions.

I know he's the enemy but you have to respect him and his program. Here's some thoughts from Don Lucia about developing players especially U8. Very good stuff every coach and parent should read and take to heart.

Minnesota Hockey - Don Lucia U8 development

[NDFlyer]

I will bet my life that Chris freekin Chelios will still be playing when he is 60 years old. I only hope that it will be for the Rangers, Devils or Maple Leafs.

[The Sicatoka]

No one understands the fundamentals ... anymore, ...

A member of this board and I have had long sad conversations about this in many aspects of life.

[MafiaMan]

I will bet my life that Chris freekin Chelios will still be playing when he is 60 years old. I only hope that it will be for the Rangers , Devils, or Maple Leafs .

I hope you didn't mind me editing your post a bit. Chellie will retire a Red Wing. Unfortunately for him, though, the hometown hero of Chicago didn't have the honor of retiring as a Black Hawk. Even though I detested that team, it was still unreal watching Eddy, Jeremy, and Chris tear up Chicago Stadium in the early 1990's. What a team that was.