A Team Named Sioux

[PCM]

In today's Wall Street Journal, Mark Yost weighs in on the Fighting Sioux name issue. Scott Hennen will be interviewing Yost on his WDAY Hot Talk show at 970 AM at 10:05 a.m. Friday.

I believe the WSJ Web site requires registration. If the link above does not work, let me know and I'll check with the administrator about posting the text of the column.

[jimdahl]

Good article. I think you just posted it because you're quoted in the WSJ

[PCM]

Here's some comments from Scott's Hennen's Hot Talk show interview with Mark Yost about his WSJ column:

Yost writes freelance for the leisure and arts section of WSJ, although he's an automotive writer for the Gannett newspaper chain.

He's a lifelong college hockey fan. He knew about the Sioux name issue because of his interest in college hockey, but got more interested in it after Engelstad died.

He said UND is the leading university for Native Americans in the country and "they're really doing a lot to address the problems of Native Americans."

Yost mentioned NDSU's effort to stop using the Fighting Sioux nickname. He said that UND used to be the Flickertails, UND changed the name to be more menacing to its arch rivals, the NDSU Bison.

Hennen asked why don't more reporters provide the facts that Yost included in his column?

Yost said a hallmark of WSJs editorial page is that they do their own reporting and often report things that aren't often on the news pages.

Yost said the attention the national media gives the acitivists is a direct result of the "squeaky wheel getting the oil" and the media knowing that "dog bites man isn't news." Meanwhile, he said, UND "quietly plods along doing yeoman's work to deal with problems facing Native Americans."

Yost mentioned Tim O'Keefe of the UND Alumni Association saying that since Engelstad died, there's been a flood of letters from alumni in support of the nickname.

Yost said Engelstad was a wonderfully generous person. He kept the Norwegian studies program alive at UND. He gave away wheelchairs to disabled North Dakotans. 25 percent of his employees at the Imperial Palace are disabled. He is now is building a $10 million hockey arena at Thief River Falls.

Yost said the issue has moved beyond the arena. The activists at UND have had a conference call with Barnes and Noble corporate HQ and are petitioning the bookstore to stop selling items with the Sioux name on it. Activists have taken it beyond the arena issue, he said.

Just to show that Yost really does know college hockey, he and Hennen got into the issue about whether the Sioux should be rated No. 1 in the country because of UND's easy schedule.

[PCM]

Good article.

[mksioux]

It's nice to see "our" side finally get some fair press.

Does anyone have any further insight into this conference call with Barnes & Noble? Who took part? Is any action pending?

[PCM]

Does anyone have any further insight into this conference call with Barnes & Noble? Who took part? Is any action pending?

I remember reading a letter to the editor in either the Herald or the Forum a while back in which Barnes and Noble was mentioned. The writer made it sound as if the UND bookstore had already agreed to stop selling items with the Sioux name on it. But having visited the bookstore a few days ago, I know for a fact this isn't true.

I think Barnes and Noble needs to hear how most people really feel on this issue.

[Goon]

From the WSJWhen Mr. Engelstad died of lung cancer last month, protesters thought they saw a glimmer of hope and renewed their call for a name-change. But the alumni office has been flooded with letters demanding that the name stay exactly as it is. "Since Ralph's passing, we've been overwhelmed," said Tim O'Keefe, who heads up the office. He believes that about 90% of the school's graduates feel the name is associated "with character, excellence and pride." Moreover, he thinks the issue might have died with Mr. Engelstad. The protesters "just lost their lightning rod." For the time being, at least, Mr. Engelstad's convictions will be honored.

I think this paragraph speaks volumes, its very profound? I sure that JBB, Pucker, "Lil" Johnny Hoff, Vivian Nelson, Glenda Misken (Owner of the ND racism site), SDSU fan and some of the other Rubes will read this and just reject it because it fails to met their agenda. I mean If the article isn't written on The New York Times or the Washington Compost, they reject it and call it wrong.

think the article is great and long over due. I am sure the minute Mr Englestad died a lot of the P.C. Nazis were saying oh now is a great opportunity to change the name. Boy are they mistaken. I encourage UND alumni and UND students to fight them every step of the way. I sure as hell will every chance I get.

On the Barnes and noble issue, the Management at Barnes and Nobel would be stupid if they decided to pull the Fighting Sioux merchandise, UND Fighting Sioux Merchandise and gear brings in 100,000.00 I know if I was managing the place I would definately not take these activists advice.

[SDSUFAN]

NOOG THATS GOON SPELLED BACKWARDS.

I read the article and no racism never meets my agenda, whether I am on a high horse or a low horse.

[mksioux]

Surprise surprise...SDSU fan is crying racist again.

For the record, racism doesn't meet my agenda either. However, I do not believe the Sioux nickname is racist. Many on this board (including me) have articulated their reasons why they support the Sioux nickname. SDSU fan, I'm still waiting for you to articulate an argument against the nickname that goes beyond making conclusory statements about racism. Is it fair to assume you don't have one?

[bisonguy]

He said that UND used to be the Flickertails, UND changed the name to be more menacing to its arch rivals, the NDSU Bison.

Wouldn't the "proper" reasoning for the name change be "to honor the heritage of the Sioux warriors"? If that's the "true reasoning", maybe NDSU should change their mascot to the "Fighting Whities". The logo could be a white man with a rifle pointed out of a covered wagon.

[SDSUFAN]

mksioux:

Racism on the campus UND see below:

This is an excerpt from the fine article that appeared in the Wall Street Journal. This excerpt tells it all.

"Still, that doesn't matter to the name-opponents, one of whom is Jim McKenzie, the head of the English department. "In some cities, where the Indian population is long gone, it seems like a political correctness issue," he says. "But on a campus where there are Indian students, it's offensive to them." He says that he doesn't know a single Arts and Sciences faculty member who will set foot inside Engelstad Arena."

If anyone knows and studies racism its the faculty who teach in the arts and science college. I can predict your reply will include comments about the faculty that never show up at Englestad are bleeding heart liberals who insist on political correctness. I dont think I will ever win an arguement with some one who denies racism that exists right under their own nose.

Does Marc the hockey player speak for all Lakota and Native American students? Just because he says its okay to use the logo, it does not speak for all Lakota.

A sample of 320 taken from reservations which said had 81% favorable responses does not speak for all tribes. How was the 321 used in the sample selected, from local watering holes or where they randomly sampled? What age groups were included? A number of sampling questions could be raised about this study.

It seems any favorable comment, study that supports the beer sloshing hockey fans is the gospel truth and anything contrary is a threating small minority.

PCM will come back and point out what is going on at SDSU in terms of Native American Studies and what we are not doing. Granted SDSU probably does not have the best record, but so what, we welcome the native american students. We dont piss them off or offend them by using a native american logo. Thats a red herring.

What proof does UND have to offer to show that programs and studies at UND that benefit Native Americans are paid for with hockey or any other athletic revenue? I bet there is none.

The monies from those programs have come from other sources and have nothing to do with Ralph Englestad or hockey.

If the UND athletic department was cash loaded, why is that they dropped wrestling and a few other sports? The resistence about moving to D1 in other sports has something to do with finances.

I know Jim Dahl says profits are not relevent but they are very much, otherwise UND administration and fans would not be that paraniod about SDSU and NDSU moving to D1.

So show me how your athletics supports Indian studies. They don't.

[ScottM]

SDSUFAN, when are you going to fulfill your promise to PCM to leave?

However, I guess your continued presence on this board merely indicates the depth of your purported "integrity".

[SDSUFAN]

Scott;

I changed my mind. Is that a problem?

[choyt3]

What proof does UND have to offer to show that programs and studies at UND that benefit Native Americans are paid for with hockey or any other athletic revenue? I bet there is none.

When arguing about whether SDSU should go D-I(AA) or not, I am pretty sure that one of the reasons that you stated was because athletics at that level were sure to increase donations by alumni and friends of SDSU since there would be pride in the athletic program. This money would allow for the academic and research dollars to increase as well, according to you.

Question... If a change in the level of athletics at SDSU is sure to increase research dollars and alumni contributions, then why are you so adamant that UND's athletic programs do not benefit the University as a whole? I guarantee you there are plenty of people out there that would dramatically decrease their contributions to the University if the 'Fighting Sioux' name were dropped. Consider me one of them.

As to Scott's question, I concur. You are nothing but a troll that is full of nonsense. You have yet to add any inkling of substance to any thread on this entire message board.

You were the one that checked out. No one told you to go.

[RD17]

I get a kick out of this. NDSU and SDSU are moving on to Division I, but they're still so deeply concerned with what's going on at UND.

The name's not changing, Chusby. You follow the typical leftist strategy of namecalling and cries of racism when people don't agree with your indefensible views. From your previous post:

Does Marc the hockey player speak for all Lakota and Native American students? Just because he says its okay to use the logo, it does not speak for all Lakota.

And just because a few Native Americans protest against the name at UND, they should speak for all Lakota? Apparently you feel that you and your liberal friends need to step in and decide which Native American viewpoint is correct when they have already overwhelmingly (81%) told us how they feel? That's about as arrogant and intellectually dishonest as a person can get.

Then there's our friend bisonguy. You know, the NDSU fan first, supporter of North Dakota sports second. The following is his response on a Big Sky conference message board when another poster brought up the idea of UND in the Big Sky:

UND has stated with some certainty that they are not going to pursue DI at this time, but may look into it in the future(read as - if NDSU becomes successful in DI, they will follow in the shadow of NDSU once again). USD has adamantly stated that they will not leave D2. Even if UND decided to go DI, they probably would not be a good fit for the BSC. You would have to deal with scandals like them having a BB player that played on a pro team.

It's an epidemic among many Bison fans. Even when/if they move to Division I, they'll still never be able to separate themselves from their hatred and envy of UND.

[ScottM]

NDSU in general when it comes to UND: "Marsha, Marsha, Marsha!"

SDSUFAN: Your insipid ad hominum attacks on various board members, UND, Ralph Engelstad, coupled with your marked lack of integrity couched in, "I changed my mind" suggest you are probably in elected office at some level, or wish to be. Rant and whine to your heart's content, and follow your vaunted athletic teams to Oklahoma and/or Kansas (states, respectively, not the D1A schools), when you go to D1AA.

[bisonguy]

Then there's our friend bisonguy. You know, the NDSU fan first, supporter of North Dakota sports second. The following is his response on a Big Sky conference message board when another poster brought up the idea of UND in the Big Sky:

Even when/if they move to Division I, they'll still never be able to separate themselves from their hatred and envy of UND.

RD17,

How did that conflict with being a Bison fan first and foremost? Why are you so concerned about the Big Sky? UND has stated that they are not pursuing DI at this time. Why does the DIAA topic have a separate forum? Why are UND fans keeping tabs of something that NDSU is doing? Could it be because of something called a rivalry?

[jimdahl]

Actually, that particular separate forum exists to discuss the impact on UND of the changes in the NCC and the possibility of UND moving to D-IAA. That forum would be closed tomorrow if the possibility of UND moving to D-IAA was really off the table. One has to be quite naive to actually believe they're not watching everything and continually reevaluating the possibility (particularly given that Lennon decided to stay).

[Goon]

Anyway we can get the Rube SDSU fan removed from our/your forum?

He is obviously nothing more than a troll...

[PCM]

I hate to give Mr. Clair D. Husby (also known as SDSUFAN) of Columbus, Neb., any attention whatsoever, but because he continually drags my name into his asinine posts and deliberately misrepresents my words, I feel compelled to respond.

Does Marc the hockey player speak for all Lakota and Native American students? Just because he says its okay to use the logo, it does not speak for all Lakota.

No. Marc Ranfranz will tell you straight up that he speaks only for himself on the issue. He doesn't pretend to represent anyone else, although he will tell you that he has American Indian friends and relatives who regularly attend Sioux games at the Engelstad Arena.

In stark contrast to Marc's unassuming approach, Mr. Husby quotes UND English Department professor Jim McKenzie, who does pretend to represent all Native American students at UND when he says, ""But on a campus where there are Indian students, it's offensive to them."

Again, I point out to Mr. Husby that when ESPN was in Grand Forks with its TV cameras and Russell Means was here at the same time to lead a protest march to Engelstad Arena, fewer than 50 Native Americans participated in the event. You'd think that with 400 offended Native American students on campus, many would want to be actively involved in such protests if they were truly dedicated to the cause.

A sample of 320 taken from reservations which said had 81% favorable responses does not speak for all tribes. How was the 321 used in the sample selected, from local watering holes or where they randomly sampled? What age groups were included? A number of sampling questions could be raised about this study.

So raise your questions. In the profession of polling, there's something known as a statistically valid sample. It's probably safe to assume that the respected Peter Harris Research Group, which conducted the SI poll and many, many polls like it, is familiar with the concept.

Interestingly enough, Dr. Roy Saigo, president of St. Cloud State University and staunch ally of the anti-Indian nickname activists, says, "I am not going to question publicly the methodology or credibility of the Sports Illustrated survey."

At least Dr. Saigo is smart enough to recognize an accurate poll when he sees one. Mr. Husby clearly is not.

PCM will come back and point out what is going on at SDSU in terms of Native American Studies and what we are not doing. Granted SDSU probably does not have the best record, but so what, we welcome the native american students. We dont piss them off or offend them by using a native american logo.

Thank you for so eloquently making my point. You prove that to the Clair D. Husby's of the world, a symbolic gesture that achieves absolutely nothing is far more important than university programs that actually improve the lives of Native Americans. I mean, how could UND graduating 20-25 percent of the American Indian medical doctors in the nation possibly compare to SDSU's inoffensive bunny rabbit logo?

As long as SDSU says it welcomes Native Americans and doesn't do anything to anger the minority of the minority who oppose sports teams using Indian nicknames, Mr. Husby thinks it's perfectly acceptable for his beloved alma mater to avoid implementing any programs that would actually have an impact on the quality of life of American Indians.

And because SDSU has a bunny rabbit logo, Mr. Husby believes it gives him the right to come here with his holier-than-thou attitude and accuse anyone who disagrees with him of being a racist. In his mind, it's better to keep the Indians on the reservation living in poverty and despair than it is to lift a finger to provide programs that make a difference in the real world. I ask you, Mr. Husby: Who is the real racist on this issue?

What proof does UND have to offer to show that programs and studies at UND that benefit Native Americans are paid for with hockey or any other athletic revenue?

As much as you love to use the term "red herring," it's a shame that don't understand what it means, Mr. Husby. This statement clearly illustrates that you don't.

But I'm not surprised. From the time you first posted here, you have demonstrated your ignorance time and time again. I might actually believe that you had some compassion and concern for Native Americans if you didn't continually engage in insulting and denigrating everyone who dares to disagree with you. You certainly have no respect for anyone and have never displayed a desire to understand any side of an issue other than your own.

With every post, you degrade and demean the very university you claim to respect and support. You're an embarrassment to SDSU. If not for the fact that I know many fine people who are SDSU alumni, I'd be ashamed to admit that I graduated from the same institution as you.

So please, Mr. Husby, take your race baiting, your bitterness, your stupidity, your jealousy and your envy somewhere else. It doesn't get any better the more that you repeat it. You only look like a bigger fool -- if such a thing is possible.

[SDSUFAN]

PCM:

Feel free to use my name, I dont have problem with that. What I dont understand why is it that all these macho hat trick hockey fans have such a thin skin? Everything is a personal attack. That what happens when I criticize UND. Basically my only criticism of UND is the Logo use and yes I realize that you have more American Indian students than any of the other higher education institution in the upper midwest. Yes I know about the Reservation health care programs etc etc. All these things were to UND credit and happen before Ralph came along with his juicy offer of an Ice Arena. So the good will is being un-done with this insensative logo use.

What I have gotten nothing in return? Attempts at personal attacks. It does not bother me though and I am not going anywhere.

PCM , You think you have scored a hat trick by putting out my real name. No Problem that is my name and I am in the telephone book so whats the big deal. It did not take me long to figure out PCM real name either. He is none other than Patrick Miller class of 1977 SDSU. Of course I own an SDSU alumni directory that is outdated and will be getting a new one any day now. PCM you seem to have forgotten where you came from. But that is probably not news to everyone on this board who know you personally and where you are from, and where you used to be from.

PCM your thin-skin and pseudo intellectual attitude makes me embarrassed of you being a SDSU grad. Renounce your degree now and return it to Brookings. LOL. I am embarassed with your arrogance. Keep your UND dollars up in GF we dont need them down in Brookings.

I hope you guys enjoy the NCAA legislation next month and the discussion of logos and nicknames.

As far as the logo issue, it will go on and on, but if you feel you are doing such a good job, keep it up. Its analogous to the GOP thinking they will get the African American vote by throwing Lott overboard. The GOP does not have a self image problem either so they think.

Gee I still don't know GOON's real name, but heck I will just call him NOOG thats Goon Spelled backwards. LOL.

Clair D. Husby

Class of 1965 SDSU

[SDSUFAN]

PCM said:

"Interestingly enough, Dr. Roy Saigo, president of St. Cloud State University and staunch ally of the anti-Indian nickname activists, says, "I am not going to question publicly the methodology or credibility of the Sports Illustrated survey."

Notice President Saigo says publicly, but what would he say privately?

I wonder if he thinks similarily to what I think and that the most of the sample were patrons of Waterholes near the Reservations. It is illegal to sell alchoholic beverages on the reservation. While 80 percent may have told the pollster they were not offended, they may have done so to any one who would buy them a drink. The alcholism rate on most reservations is nearly 80 per cent, so it depend when and where each of the 320 were polled. Yes I am going to be accused of sterotyping but I am also quoting a statistic that is often publicly quoted about conditions on the reservation.

The alcholic rate is very high and near 80%, and a 80% statistic can mean a number of things.

Why are you UND defenders of the logo so hell bent on quoting majority and minority numbers? This seems to always be fitting and convenient to your cause of keeping this dispicable logo. The fact only 50 students showed up to protest does not relfect the true feeling of the 400. Maybe the other 350 had other priorities. Just because they are no show does not mean they dont care. You have season ticket holders that are no shows at certain games of hockey. Does that mean these holders do not care about the sport of hockey? So PCM give me your logical refutation this point.

Yes I know something about alcholism since I put the plug in the jug nearly 30 years ago. Believe me this disease knows no color, creed or religious orgins. The Native Americans are now just beginning to under stand this disease and yes I have met some who have recovered and I wonder what their response would have been if polled.

[SDSUFAN]

PCM can call me a racist if he likes, it does not bother me. It seems to bother PCM more, and maybe its a conscience thing. I did find a letter from Professor McKenize on another site and if I include the entire text it would be subsequently deleted. Professor said to the GF Herald the following:

"Who can forget that nasty, threatening letter that Ralph Englestad sent to President Charles Kupchella, with copies to the Board of Higher Education a day or two before their Dec. 21 decision? Surely, that was a foul of the first order. And was Reggie Morelli the only truth-teller in all that sorry twisting and turning about whether there were conditions attached to the hockey arena? Lots of unsportsmanlike speech in all of that, since one thinks of telling the truth as part of sport.

Then, there was the board's decision itself, arrived at without its having been put on the agenda and hiding the foul that Englestad had committed until an alert Associated Press writer discovered it. Attorney General Wayne Stenehjem invoked strict interpretation of the rules, though, when he decided that it was then too late to protest.

And for unsportsmanlike conduct, it's hard to beat the death threats and much other hostile activity, including vandalized cars, hate mail, racist posters and other harassment some supporters of the name have engaged in -- events so numerous that they drew in the U.S. Department of Education to investigate. These continue, as demonstrated by recent harassment of a faculty member who resigned from the president's new Indian Studies committee, a principled decision she made after seeing the new logo in the Hyslop floor.

As a community, we should keep in mind that this derogatory phrasing would include elected regional tribal councils that have repeatedly petitioned UND to stop using the nickname and logo and many other local, regional, national and international organizations and church groups on record against the use of Indians as mascots."

I dont have the self image of a racist and I do want want Native Americans to suffer any more than they have for the last 200 years or more. Why would I want to encourage an 80 % alcholohism rate? If I did I would try and buy one of the bars in White Clay, Nebraska just right next to Pine Ridge Reservation. You can not believe how much money those people take in each month. So why would I want that sort of means of income?

I just think UND should be sensitive and change your logo back to Flickertails. Whats the big deal? Seventy years of logo use is a long ways from tradition when you consider all the rites, customs and dances of the Lakota.

Drop the logo and I will disappear.

[bisonguy]

As a Caucasian, I find the term "Native American" to be racist. Has anybody else heard of the evidence that Caucasians were inhabitated in North America thousands of years before the American Indians?

[Riverman]

Feel free to use my name, I dont have problem with that. What I dont understand why is it that all these macho hat trick hockey fans have such a thin skin? Everything is a personal attack. That what happens when I criticize UND.

What I have gotten nothing in return? Attempts at personal attacks. It does not bother me though and I am not going anywhere.

PCM , You think you have scored a hat trick by putting out my real name. No Problem that is my name and I am in the telephone book so whats the big deal. It did not take me long to figure out PCM real name either. He is none other than Patrick Miller class of 1977 SDSU. Of course I own an SDSU alumni directory that is outdated and will be getting a new one any day now. PCM you seem to have forgotten where you came from.

Clair D. Husby

Class of 1965 SDSU

Claire, If only you understood what you type.We have watched over the last few weeks how YOU attack Grand Forks,ND,UND,Hockey,Ralph.

You love it. You love the attention.Personal attacks?C-mon you can do better than that.

I doubt that Pat has scored as you like to quote a"hat trick".

I think he has pointed out flaws in your arguement for the nickname.These same people who say if ONE person does not like the name you MUST change it.(Lucy"White woman"Gange's of the world.)

PCM interviewed one person who is a Sioux,

and is proud of himself and of being a SIOUX.(Nice Shut Out Mark!)

I am glad you are not going any where because you just might learn something.Being away from school since 1965 and all.

Maybe we can teach you what a Shut Out is now.

And next week grab your pencil, Checking from Behind.