NCC of the Future

[wsuwarrior]

With UNC and NDSU, (and SDSU, presuming they find a conference) on their way out, what's the new NCC going to look like.

UND

St. Cloud

MSU - Mankato

South Dakota

Augustana

Nebraska - Omaha

and Minnesota - Duluth in a couple of years.

That leaves the NCC with seven teams. What's next for the NCC?

One thing of note: I work for the official radio station for Winona State, and I've asked the NSIC commissioner, Mike Lockrem, about the possibility of the NSIC and NCC merging. He told me that they are NOT looking to merge, but the NSIC would be willing to take on teams if the NCC were to fall apart from teams going to Division I. So where does this leave the NCC?

[jimdahl]

After UMD it becomes a lot less obvious. Nebraska-Kearney is often mentioned because of their geographic fit, natural rivalry with UNO, and they already often schedule competitions against NCC teams. However, it's been speculated that the Lopers don't have the money or inclination to leave their current conference. There are some other appealing schools in the RMAC, but the same situations probably apply.

That's going to be the toughest part -- finding a school that fits that also has a reason to want to move.

[RD17]

The one major hang up is going to be the fact that the NCC requires each school to have a minimum number of football scholarships. Unless the league is willing to make some concessions, it will be tough to find schools with the financial ability to support a move to the NCC.

[tony]

The NCC has a minimum? I thought Mankato has offered less than 20 for years now. Morningside was never even close to 36.

University of Mary might be looking to move up. Southwest State (MN), Moorhead, and Concordia-St. Paul would be better geographic fits though.

[tony]

Actually... I hadn't thought of this before but the NCAA has talked off and on about admitting Canadian schools to the NCAA - how about the U. of Manitoba?

[jimdahl]

Actually... I hadn't thought of this before but the NCAA has talked off and on about admitting Canadian schools to the NCAA - how about the U. of Manitoba?

The AD's certainly know each other because we schedule them in hockey regularly.

The NCC has a minimum? I thought Mankato has offered less than 20 for years now. Morningside was never even close to 36.

I was wondering about Morningside myself, but wasn't sure enough to speak up. No worries, though, the NCAA will take care of this problem for us by reducing the permitted scholarships in D-II so every conference can be as good as the NCC. Sigh.

[wsuwarrior]

Alright, I throw it out just as a thought. Winona State has been competitive over the past couple of years, at least in the NSIC.

Postitives to Winona State:

Competitive (we aren't complete pushovers)

Negatives:

Location isn't great

I don't know if WSU could get up to the minimum amount of scholarships, but the NCAA might take care of that.

The powers-that-be seem content with a mid-sized fish, and a tiny pond.

[SDSUFAN]

Winona location is not bad at all. It would be more central than Chadron or Kearney, Nebraska.

Winona is one NSIC member that could step up and maybe be a good member of the NCC. I would think they would be as attractive as the U of Mary. I think its a matter of have a good programs for 7 sports in men and women that would gain admission. WSU would probably have to get their alums and business community more committed than what they are now. Thats not always easy.

Prior to 1962, NDSU did not have their community and alums involved and with the President making a committment to winning after a 0-10 football season things began to change. The formation of the Teamakers involved alums and the Fargo-Moorhead business community. When you have unfunded programs, you just can not expect to be sucessful, especially in the NCC.

Thats why SDSU has had only two seasons with 8 wins or more since 1963. Football has been subordinate to women sports and other sports in the needed funding. I not sure what the dollar amount of the football budget is at SDSU, but its less than NDSU and UND. We have been able to beat both in one season only once or twice since 1963. Dollars are necessary to be sucessful.

[tony]

Winona State would probably be the best choice. I would have mentioned them except that I thought that the school didn't have any interest.

PS

Just because I think thatMankato and Morningside don't/didn't offer many scholarships doesn't mean that there isn't a higher minimum or that they don't/didn't offer a higher number than I think. I made it sound like I was stating verified fact and I wasn't. I'd love to know what the NCC's requirements are and am surprised info on it hasn't appeared in the news.

[RD17]

There was an article in the Duluth newspaper around the time UMD announced it was moving to the NCC. It stated that UMD would go to 30 scholarships in 2004 to meet the NCC minimum requirements for its football programs. I tried to do a search and find the article but apparently it's buried in the archives and no longer accessable.

It could very well be that the guy that wrote the story has no idea what he's talking about. That was the first I'd heard of an NCC minimum.

[bancheedog]

Southwest State may be a fit as well. Besides football, their one of the most successful programs in the NSIC. And they have a company called Schwans that may drop a bomb on the school if they decide to move.

My view, one big league someday. some schools will have to step up to a certain level to do it, but may happen

[JBB]

I've never heard of a minimum, maybe the NCC site has something?

I dont think any of the teams mentioned are going to move into the NCC. The NCC is primarily a league of DI hockey schools with DII sports carried along out of necessity. The only other school left with that set up is Bemidji. They are probably the most likely candidate to bring the NCC to 8 members. Any other potential members will probably come from a lower division. Why would any of the other schools leave their conferences? Especially now that the NCC is being gutted.

I also think a future NCC will support scholarship reductions. It will be a way to subsidize hockey. They will also support all the new rules that will increase the influence of the regional setup because it is cheaper.

[jimdahl]

I've never heard of a minimum, maybe the NCC site has something?

I've searched for a minimum but been unable to find it. Unfortunately, not finding a reference proves nothing.

The only other school left with that set up is Bemidji.  They are probably the most likely candidate to bring the NCC to 8 members.

Bemidji would really surprise me. Though they have a hockey team like most teams in the NCC, the NCC doesn't even sponsor hockey. The NCC is all about football and basketball. Bemidji is a horrible fit with the other NCC members in those sports.

Why would any of the other schools leave their conferences?  Especially now that the NCC is being gutted.

That's been my argument -- the difficulty is finding someone who we want AND who has a reason to want to move. However, the NCC is still arguably one of the top D-II conferences with UND, Mankato, UNO, USD, SCSU all being pretty competitive in a lot of sports (all were top 50 in the Sears Cup last year). UMD seems to continue that tradition with their recent football success.

I also think a future NCC will support scholarship reductions.  It will be a way to subsidize hockey.

This is a bold prediction that just demonstrates that you haven't been paying attention. At UND, hockey is a profitable program. Our D-I hockey program provides a profit to the athletic department that makes it easier for UND to fund the non-revenue sports.

I would actually guess that the effect of dramatic scholarship reductions would be to break the camel's back and forced UND to reconsider moving up. I guess time will tell which of us is right.

[JBB]

I don

[jimdahl]

I don

[JBB]

Your talking about the role of the NCC. True it is a good conference and much to your delight has been very competitve nationally. This has helped bring some nationa recognition to your minor NCC sports. A situation that should only get better in the future as DII dilutes itself.

Im talking about the function of the conference. I think the facts are bearing me out. The conference is a backdrop for DI hockey/DII other sports schools. How else would you explain Duluths transfer and the fact that the conference only has 2 remaining members that are not in DI hockey. When Bemidji applies for entry even you may even agree with me.

[jimdahl]

How else would you explain Duluths transfer

I already answered this -- because Duluth is a great football school, an NCC sport.

and the fact that the conference only has 2 remaining members that are not in DI hockey.

I could very well make some claim like "the NCC is really just a backdrop for wrestling because all the schools except two have wrestling". Sure you stated a fact, but it has nothing to do with your claim. It only proved the growing popularity of hockey. I've demonstrated that the NCC is a premiere conference in a wide variety of sports. You can't disprove it because it's a fact.

We're all aware that you're jealous that UND has higher attendance from hockey alone than NDSU will have as a D-I school in all sports combined. However, you can't dispute that UND has also been competitive in football and basketball, among other sports. Your claim that hockey has caused UND to ignore those sports is ridiculous and easily disproven by look at Sioux-Bison results, or Sears Cup standings.

[JBB]

It never fails to amaze me how so many of you on this board turn to the personal attack when you feel your are being backed into a corner by superior argument.

My point is this, and it has nothing to do with your arogance: the NCC has become a second sport league for DI hockey/DII other sports schools. It is a competitive league and you can thank SDSU and NDSU for much of that. Every member but 2 have the division mix. Duluth, a school with good football but not the only school with good football in the NSIC (remember Winona) moved out of a perfectly good DII league to bring their DI hockey program to this league. They are not a football centered school. They only seat 6,500. Hockey is their main sport as it is at UND, Mankato, SCSU and UNO.

Dont even start with the wrestling. your school dropped it to preserve hockey. NDSU wrestles in DII.

If I have a problem with anything its the fact that the NCC has been manipulated by the hockey schools to serve in a supporting role with the DII sports. This has hurt the league and prevented it from moving up as a whole and enjoying the benefits of DI athletics. Something I think you treasure. I think UND plays the major role here since neither SCSU or Mankato launched tremedous public relations campaigns attempting to discredit NDSU and Decision I. SDSU is suffering from the same type of behavior from USD, the leagues future Morningside.

Your welcome to have your hockey, the fact that Ive never seen a game shouldnt have any bearing on it, but please why all the resentment and negative publicity about the NDSU Move to DI from all you?

[jimdahl]

Your pointless rant refused to address the facts. I'm going to keep calling you this. Just because you write a response attacking UND and hockey doesn't mean you refuted my points.

* You claim that supporting hockey causes UND and other NCC schools to neglect all other sports.

* I refute it by pointing out how successful the NCC (even excluding NDSU) is in all sports excluding hockey.

Your burden is not to prove that hockey is the biggest sport at some NCC schools (something no one disputes), but rather to prove that it somehow harms other sports. In three attempts, you've completely ignored that and just gone on anti-UND, anti-NCC, anti-hockey rants.

[wsuwarrior]

How else would you explain Duluths transfer and the fact that the conference only has 2 remaining members that are not in DI hockey.  When Bemidji applies for entry even you may even agree with me.

UM-Duluth probably left because people laugh at the NSIC. They out grew it. They wanted to get in a better all around conference. Bemidji is a possibility, along with Winona, Northern St, and Southwest to step up and move. They may apply, but I doubt they'll do it because of hockey. They'll do it for the reason Duluth did, and the reason I want Winona to. The NSIC just doesn't get the respect that the NCC does.

[teamsioux]

"My point is this, and it has nothing to do with your arogance: the NCC has become a second sport league for DI hockey/DII other sports schools."

Well if this is true JBB, who cares? It is still most successful conference in DII. You idiots in Fargo are the ones with the inferiority complex and couldn't stand having UND be successful in DI. If UND didn't have DI, there is no way NDSU goes DI. Fargo voted down hockey, so you NDSU had to go to DI in other sports because God forbid that UND be the top dog. Yes NDSU and SDSU were big parts of the NCC's success, but so was UND. If other sports are so neglected at the hockey schools, why has UND had success in other programs?

[star2city]

To get this thread back on track, Nebraska-Kearney has a strategic plan available on the internet that includes objectives for its athletic department: UNK Strategic Plan As a current member of the RMAC, UNK's strategic plan runs countercurrent to the RMAC's desire to reduce Div II scholarships (see Objective B below). "Continuously evaluate athletic conference affiliation" in Objective C would not be listed if there were not higher conference aspirations (NCC) or at least some dissatisfaction with the RMAC. Objectives A and B would be required for NCC membership. As per normal for athletic departments, financial issues are probably delaying their desired conference upgrade (to the NCC).

UNK Intercollegiate Athletics

III. Long-Range Objectives (1995-2005)

A.  To develop new outdoor facilities. Development should be phased so that facilities are available in the following order: (1) softball-baseball complex, including parking, locker rooms, and concessions, (2) football-track facility, including parking, locker rooms, and concessions, (3) practice areas for football and soccer, and (4) tennis courts.   ...

B.  To maintain the current number of scholarships and add more as funds become available.

C.  To continuously evaluate athletic conference affiliation in light of UNK academic and athletic philosophy and objectives.

[bisonguy]

star2city,

Do you know how many scholarships UNK currently fields? If it's not currently the max, objective B is open to interpretation. Let's take Winona as an example. They may want to up their FB scholarships to 20, currently at 15 or 16. This would still coincide with the rest of the NSIC wanting to reduce scholarships for D2, but would be an increase for that particular institution.

[JBB]

The hockey schools dont neglect other sports but rather refuse to upgrade other sports. The NCC cant move up because the hockey schools wont go. The money needed for the move would impact the hockey budget.

[SDSUFAN]

I dont think anyone can read a great deal into a strategic plan. A good AD should have one in place and thats what appears UNK has done. What the reality at this moment in the athletic department is an entirely another matter.

If UNK would make a run at the NCC, then they may have to have a special fund drive of some sort to meet the scholarship requirements of the NCC and other expenses. I wonder what would the travel cost currently in the RMAC would be as compared to the NCC. If they indicated that they were happy with the RMAC, some cost study may have been made and the results said stay with the RMAC.

About 1990, I recall the NCAA North Central Region was held in Grand Forks. On the fan bus from SDSU was the former AD who knew the AD from Kearney. The AD from Kearney, experiencing the NCAA for the first time was disappointed that UNK did not get to host the regional. I forget now but the bid he submitted was very paltry and did not even come close to UND and SDSU. UND having a better record got to be the host. My point is that a bunch of RMAC are still in an NAIA mode of thinking when it comes to dollars.

Seems like the last number I heard about UNK was 28 for football, but not positive. They might be close for football, but I wonder how much interest there is in Kearney. I stopped reading the Kearney Hub but their newspaper report is very good and if there was interest I am sure he would report it.

I dont know how much the UNK athletic department gets from the Nebraska legislature, but they at least get funds to operate and maintain their facilities. Nebraska like every other state has budget deficits so they could hardly go to the legislature for help if thats what is needed.