Sioux Falls Argus-Leader Editorial

[star2city]

The Sioux Falls Argus-Leader fully supports USD's decision and strongly suggests SDSU stay Division II, in spite of SDSU's hope to shed its 'cow college' image.

Argus-Leader Editorial

[jimdahl]

The Sioux Falls Argus-Leader fully supports USD's decision and strongly suggests SDSU stay Division II, in spite of SDSU's hope to shed its 'cow college' image.

Argus-Leader Editorial

Because the Argus Leader only keeps articles up for a week, it's about to expire. Just so everyone gets a chance to read it, I'll risk (yet another) lawyer sending me copyright-violation nastygrams and reproduce it here:

Division I too costly

Editorial Board

Argus Leader

published: 10/6/2002

USD rightly concluded that underfunded state schools can't afford it

University of South Dakota officials bowed to reality.

The school's just not in a position to move its athletic programs up to NCAA Division I level. The money isn't there. And success at that level depends on money.

"It would not be a good move for us athletically, academically or financially," said USD track coach Dave Gottsleben, a member of the committee that studied the possible move for more than a year.

This still leaves much unsettled, though. USD is a member of the Division II North Central Conference. Conference members Northern Colorado and North Dakota State already have decided to leave and move up to Division I. South Dakota State is considering the same move.

If the NCC disintegrates, USD is left with a problem.

So USD's big-show announcement that it would stay Division II no doubt was intended to try to influence others - especially SDSU - not to jump ship.

SDSU has promised a decision soon. If it takes the same kind of look USD did, it will make the same decision. The way South Dakota has splintered higher education - and the way we underfund it - we just can't accommodate a Division I athletic program and expect any kind of success.

The attraction for SDSU is obvious. Moving up to Division I would be a bold move that could help the school break away from the pack and shed its cow-college image.

USD hopes to break away and become a shining star, too - over the long haul, through academics.

Moving to Division I could bring immediate dividends to SDSU, though. It would add a new marketing tool and could be used to attract more students, especially from outside South Dakota.

In the long run, though, we come back to the same brick wall USD found: Money.

Our higher education system already is underfunded, partly because we've made sure colleges are close to just about everyone. We have six publicly funded universities, with close to 30,000 students - ranging from Dakota State University with around 2,000 to SDSU with just under 9,000.

That's for a state with only 756,000 people.

Universities elsewhere that have made this move either don't have that kind of competition for state funding or have a much greater population base - and larger state budgets - from which to draw.

There's a solution to that here in South Dakota. We can increase state funding and close some schools - at least three of the six.

An alternative would be to develop - quickly - a large corps of wealthy and generous alumni.

None of this will happen, making the move to Division I a huge risk.

And without money, that will leave SDSU with - at best - a second-rate athletic program. It simply won't be able to compete with other Division I schools that have more resources.

Now we'll wait for SDSU's decision. Right or wrong, money will be at the core of it. Either SDSU thinks it can find the money - or it doesn't.

But if it banks on getting the money, it better have a solid plan in place for doing so. And that will include alumni who already have signed on the dotted line.

That doesn't seem likely. And that means SDSU should stay Division II.

[The Sicatoka]

Someone from The Herald must have gotten to the Sioux Fall Argus-Leader.

They've joined the conspiracy to work against NDSU as well.

[PCM]

The attraction for SDSU is obvious. Moving up to Division I would be a bold move that could help the school break away from the pack and shed its cow-college image.

SDSU has a "cow-college image?" I wish someone would have told me before I went there!

[star2city]

On the SDSU website, a Division I market survey for SDSU by Convention, Sports, and Leisure (CSL) International has been posted. Within this report, the following table was included. Is it possible that SDSU only brings in $0.5M in ticket sales when they normally are within the top five in Division II basketball attendance and their football team is normally a good draw? Either their ticket prices will have to double or their attendance will have to double, even during the Division I transition period, to make budget (assuming they have a conference). No wonder the AD at SDSU has been on the road attempting to drum up alumni support for more $'s.

The following table presents a comparison of SDSU's existing revenues and estimated revenues assuming reclassification to Division I athletics.

[The Sicatoka]

NDSU hires Carr Sports to do their D-I study.

NDSU hires CSL out of Minneapolis to do their survey.

SDSU hires the same two and get the same two answers.

Me thinks it would be interesting to see if those two groups have ever given any other answers than what administrations wanted to hear.

[jimdahl]

NDSU hires CSL out of Minneapolis to do their survey.

I actually read CSL's executive summary as being neutral to negative toward the move (particularly the demographic/socioeconomic survey):

http://www3.sdstate.edu/ClassLibrary/Page/...CSL_Summary.pdf

Demographic and Socioeconomic Characteristics

An assessment of the demographic and socioeconomic characteristics of the primary and secondary markets of

comparable Division I school indicates that SDSU's primary and secondary markets ranks in the mid-to-low range of

Division I markets compared in this report.

Key findings of the market comparisons include:

* SDSU's student enrollment ranks in the mid-to-low range of Division I schools analyzed in this report.

* SDSU's alumni base ranks in the mid-to-low range of Division I schools analyzed herein.

* The population of SDSU's primary market ranks above only one other Division I market analyzed in this

report. When including both the primary and secondary markets, SDSU's market population ranks lowest

among the selected recently reclassified schools, fifth out of nine in the Big Sky Conference and eighth out

of nine in the Mid-Continent Conference.

* The effective buying income of SDSU's primary market ranks among the lowest of Division I markets

analyzed.  When including both the primary and secondary markets (within 75 miles), SDSU's EBI ranks in the

mid-to-low range of Division I schools presented in this analysis.

* Entertainment and sporting event spending for SDSU's primary and secondary markets rank among the

lowest of the Division I schools analyzed.

* SDSU's corporate base is smaller than all but one of the Division I schools analyzed.

The executive summary also included focus group and market surveys. Those indicated that people in the area wouldn't find a Division I team less attractive (won't hurt academics, etc...), but weren't willing to pay a lot more for it either.

This is all interesting because, as Sicatoka has said before, if Brookings is demographically attractive for D-I, then Grand Forks certainly is.

[The Sicatoka]

Brookings is just 50 miles from Sioux Falls. Don't tell Fargo but Sioux Falls is much larger and SD doesn't have a personal income tax so SDers have more disposable income, but still the report said:

* The effective buying income of SDSU's primary market ranks among the lowest of Division I markets analyzed.

[bisonguy]

Sicatoka,

Here you go:

CSL Report from NDSU Website

btw- Sioux Falls and Fargo have nearly the same size metro area, actually Fargo is larger, 174,000 v. 172,000. NDSU also has a much higher concentration of the populous within 25 miles than SDSU(i.e. primary market).

I know you already were schooled about this on the Bisonvile board, but I thought I'd throw it out there for everyone else.

[The Sicatoka]

Shouldn't you be out there raising all those additional funds for the glorious D-I sellouts at FargoDome (like Saturday's, with a couple thousand empty seats)?

[bisonguy]

Would those be sellouts like UND's playoff games last year with a few thousand empty seats? I counted over 19,000 on saturday.

[The Sicatoka]

So Bison fans now show up as empty blue chairs?

Geez, they must have learned that from corporate-type Gopher hockey fans.

And yeah, UND didn't fill the Alerus against Winona State, but it wasn't called a sell out either. They gave the actual figure.

[bisonguy]

Any sort of "corporate" counting was probably learned from UND's student enrollment numbers . A few empty blue seats here and there can be accounted for, people have to answer nature's call and may want something to eat. When NOBODY is sitting in the the four corner sections and the sections next to those are only half full in the game against Pitt. St., that's another story.

[jimdahl]

Counting only the primary market, SDSU is in a MUCH smaller primary market than UND. When you go to the larger (~75 mile) market, Fargo and Grand Forks (~97,000) lump together to form a pretty solid population base.

My point is that the move seems demographically less feasible for SDSU than for UND. That's why I find SDSU so interesting -- if it works for them demographically, it should work for UND (though, of course, UND and NDSU are splitting the population in their larger area; theoretically, that might mean that it's actually better for NDSU if UND doesn't move).

[The Sicatoka]

I had a Bison fan report to me, unprompted, that he was disappointed that about 3000 of his fellow season-ticket holders arrived as empty blue seats against UND. His words.

And remember, he got his accounting degree at NDSU. Which way are you going to play that?

[JBB]

NDSU does not give a turnstile count. They give a sold count. If you had taken time to notice there were more than enough fans left in the Prestigious Tailgate areas to fill the Fabulous Fargo Dome.

At most there were 1,000 empty seats. During the D2 playoffs in the grand cities last year Winona drew 6,500, The PSU game say 10,000 and the Davis game 11,000? How does that even compare to the Prestigious Crowd at the Fabulous Fargo Dome? I think it stands as proof that all sports are minor sports at UND except the beloved hockey. What happens when the Big 10 forms its own league?

I dont think there were any reports of NDSU calling back tickets that had been purchased so they could distrubute them to more deserving fans. This actually occured last year at the hilarious center. tickets sold to NDSU fans were revoked. It seems there were not enough seats to accomodate the NDSU fans and UND fans that wanted to see the game. To bad your arena is so small. See you next year when we make another million dollar haul from ya all!! hahahahaha

[RD17]

JBB-

I stopped at a Fargo grocery store the other day. Guess what's printed on the back of the store receipt? A coupon for 2 for 1 Bison football tickets. The coupon was for all home games this year, except of course UND.

Let's see, NDSU couldn't count the number of seats at Dakotah field, they claim record crowds when there are empty seats, and now attempting to artificially inflate attendance numbers with freebies. Is there a trend here?

[bisonguy]

Freebies?

Would that be like a certain university giving away free tickets to everyone at the Grand Forks Air Base, Guard and Reserve units in the area(including Fargo),all their immediate families, and still not having a sellout?

Here's what I saw at last year's UND v. PSU game last year: sections 201,209,210, and 218 were completely empty. Sections 202,208,211, and 217 were on average half-full. How that amounted to 10,000 I will never know. Must have been the same people that count UND's enrollment numbers .

[nodakvindy]

The Chump JBB said --

NDSU does not give a turnstile count. They give a sold count. If you had taken time to notice there were more than enough fans left in the Prestigious Tailgate areas to fill the Fabulous Fargo Dome.

At most there were 1,000 empty seats. During the D2 playoffs in the grand cities last year Winona drew 6,500, The PSU game say 10,000 and the Davis game 11,000? How does that even compare to the Prestigious Crowd at the Fabulous Fargo Dome?

================================================

Tickets sold is meaningless, bodies in the seats are what matter. I've never seen an empty seat enjoy a dog and a coke, or buy any souvenirs. You can rip UND's football attendance, but first take a look in the mirror (and remember that Fargo U (whoops, NDSU) is supposedly a "football school", that just isn't true in Grand Forks.)

NDSU draws 10 grand and change for Augie, but can fill the place for the Sioux. What does that mean? It means a hell of a lot of people are wearing green in the Fabulous Floating Football Barn, green and white that is.

Don't count on those 8000-9000 Sioux fans showing up for your games when you are DI. You aren't selling out Sioux games because more Bison fans are actually showing up, although you'd like to think that. Good luck getting 8000 fans to make the trip from Bozeman, Cedar Falls, or whatever other D-I (AA) powerhouses you get to come play.

You constantly deride UND and the other NCC hockey schools, but the attention they get is what you so crave and is the motivating factor behind NDSU's move up. It would have been smarter to let just the wrestling program go to D-I. Schools like Edinboro and Lock Haven do it and are Top-25 programs. You don't face competition from UND, and it's the one sport that North Dakota can produce enough athletes to fill a D-I team. Instead that honorable program will likely be a sacrifice to the alter of I-AA football, when the Title IX folks wonder how you are going to balance your 27 football scholarships.

I'll really feel for you when the reality of "D-I" sets in and you get your hopes up when the Bison score a 4th quarter TD to get within 63-7 against the Huskers in Lincoln. What a proud day that will be for the Thundering Herd, but hey that $300,000 might stem the red ink for a year. And who'll be able to turn down tickets to the Bison Holiday Hoops Classic featuring NDSU, Siena, Stetson and Texas Pan-American.

Welcome to the Big Time.

[nodakvindy]

You're right about the PSU game. Those self-absorbed students went home and spent Thanksgiving with their families. Yeah, they aren't real fans.

Next you'll be quoting attendance for WCHA playoff games scheduled during spring break.

[RD17]

Freebies?

Would that be like a certain university giving away free tickets to everyone at the Grand Forks Air Base, Guard and Reserve units in the area(including Fargo),all their immediate families, and still not having a sellout?

Here's what I saw at last year's UND v. PSU game last year: sections 201,209,210, and 218 were completely empty. Sections 202,208,211, and 217 were on average half-full. How that amounted to 10,000 I will never know. Must have been the same people that count UND's enrollment numbers .

Yes, let's talk enrollment numbers. Are tri-college students a whole student, an third of a student, or do they only count for NDSU?

Look up NDSU's attendance at their last home playoff game (hint, you need to search under ancient history ). You'll find that attendance was ~6200. Adjusting for Dakotah Field math, that number is probably a couple of thousand too high.

Thank god for St. John's and Valley City State- without those schools the Fargodome would never get to host any playoff action.

[bisonguy]

I never realized the empty student section was in all four corners of the Alerus.

Enrollment numbers? I did not know undergrad students include grad students and faculty. I guess you just throw them into the undergrad numbers, while counting them again as faculty and grad students. I suppose higher math skills aren't a requisite for a school in a city that can't count their population properly, either.

[nodakvindy]

No, the student section isn't in the corners. But if you had seats in the corners and could move to vacant student seats nearer the middle of the field, wouldn't you do so.

[The Sicatoka]

When Fast Ed Schultz and Tony "Beer" Stein reported empty seats during their broadcast I thought: "propaganda."

When I later flipped on the tube to watch, I heard Sweeney and Hallstrom comment about it. I thought maybe Sweeney was getting in a little dig, but Hallstrom also noted the significant number of empty seats.

I was starting to be mad at myself for not going and trying to get in when I heard of open chairs.

When I heard Scott Miller and Jack Michaels, during the post-game, note the significant number of empty seats I knew it had to be real. Hey, those guys are Bison homers (as they should be broadcasting the games) and yet they felt the need to mention the empty seats in the post-game show. Michaels also noted that NDSU fans started for the gates when UND scored the safety. (That's when my accountant buddy left.)

[JBB]

The game was a sell out and there were no tickets to be had unless some reserved ticket holders handed theirs in to the box office for resale. Its common practice and allows NDSU to sell a ticket twice if the reserved ticket is not going to be used. Of course you didnt have time to come down to the stadium. You were probably too busy yapping to your dog about how NDSU cant afford to go D1 and theyll be real sorry when they do.

I dont think NDSU does turnstile counts, they do actual sales, general admission and reserved. You will never draw 19,000 + sold or otherwise to a football game in the grand cities and your frustration with that is showing. I believe thats the underlying reason for the tremendous demise of the sue sox football team this year. Why play your hearts out when nobody really cares? Im sure your very credable as to what "your friend" said. You seem to be an unbiased sort of chap with regard to NDSU and UND.

I think its more interesting, as long as your talking big crowds, what roger "gee kids you can have fun without standing up" thomas intends to do about the unfortunate layout at the ice rink. The "most desirable" customers cant see when students stand. Is roger going to wear his green wig to the games again this year and show "the kids" how to "have fun" without disturbing all of his corporate clients?