Musical Chairs

[The Sicatoka]

the committee he is on has all divisions on it..D1, D2 D3 I have read the article..and FYI..our alumni feel they are tapped out for funding..so there goes that source of revenue..but you propably knew that since u talk to O'Keefe..the D1 committe doesnt care about restructuring...they just want their own league..ie BCS that is where that comes from...they dont care about the UND..NDSU..SDSU..UNC...or whoever else.

Finally we'll agree (almost) somewhere.

Yes, Kupchella and O'Keefe are both publicly talking big dollars (as is Harmeson). I've said all along that cost is the main concern and I have no reason to not believe what they are saying.

The BCS wanting a league of their own (which I also believe is the case), if they get it, or just leave and form it outside the NCAA, is by default a restructuring of the NCAA, right?

I won't be surprised if UND allows all that to sort out first. As mentioned, some big contracts (basketball-television and BSC) come up for renewal soon. That should drive the BCS schools to make this an issue because to them it's about money, not the so-called "prestige of DI".

[The Sicatoka]

I expect one of the following scenarios between now and the end of the decade:

1. There is some sort of NCAA shake-up (driven by money) and some sort of restructuring falls out of that. UND would be swept along with that change (and sits pat until then).

2. The O'Keefe speculation:

"... if the Big Sky Conference expands, we have to be interested in going along with (the Bison). If they are invited, which I don't believe would happen without us, I think the Big Sky will actively talk to us at that same time."

A conference would help with some of the financial concerns.

3. The DII football scholarship maximum is slashed from 36 to 24 in January along with a 10% reduction in maximum scholarships in all other sports. UND views that as more perilous than moving up so it moves.

4. jimdahl wins the next huge PowerBall and gives it all to UND Athletics, thus forming the endowment that Dr. Kupchella envisions.

[jack100]

Dude---settle down.

When is the last time you finished ahead of UND in football in the NCC? Don't compare UND and SDSU ever again.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

2002.

[Bisonfan1234]

SDSU needs to get all the sports mandated by the BSC and cut this women's horse riding bulls*** out of there.

Seriously, is that a joke? Women's horse riding?! You've got to be s***ing me!

I'd MUCH rather see the BCS survive and the NCAA disbanded

I think schools should only be afiliated with a conference at most. The NCAA is about strongarming everyone and anyone into doing whatever they want. It's nothing but a bunch of money and power hungry good ol' boys that need to be completely dissolved.

[Smoggy]

So we have Legend and Sicatoka going against each other. And both have inside info, . I'm sorry Legend, but I've read your arguments on all the different figures for REA and various arguments you've had with reputable sources, like PCM. I'm going to have to go with the Sicatoka. At least he lists how and where he gets is "inside" knowledge. You just seem to like to play devil's advocate on everything.

[UND92,96]

Know your facts before you open your mouth.

[legend334]

So we have Legend and Sicatoka going against each other. And both have inside info, . I'm sorry Legend, but I've read your arguments on all the different figures for REA and various arguments you've had with reputable sources, like PCM. I'm going to have to go with the Sicatoka. At least he lists how and where he gets is "inside" knowledge. You just seem to like to play devil's advocate on everything.

Devils advocate...because i speak what is actually going on??? REA...which part of that dont you believe??? you im me your address and I will mail you the contract then see if i have reputable sources...I gurantee you this...the NCAA is NOT reclassifying...resturcturing or doing any of that...even if the BCS teams make their own league.

[Bisonfan1234]

And if the BCS league starts getting all the NCAA teams?

I'd love for NDSU to move to a BCS league where we were only "required" to keep the sports that made money so long as we complied with T9.

[updm002]

UND9296- You are absolutely right about everything you say about sdsu. But if you go say that on their site you will be shouted down as the "village idiot" bc you dare disagree with their viewpoint. By the way according to the top 15 posters on that site they are going to be a huge success in d1. Heck you people might as well go d1 bc it sounds so easy according to the folks in SD.

By the way we at UNO are looking forward to your visit to Omaha. We have arguably the best back we have ever had at UNO in Jamar Day who is a 25 year old juco transfer. Moving him into the starting lineup a month ago has changed our team tremendously. We have real shot at the title now. I don't know if we can beat scsu in MN but I feel pretty good about our chances at home against UND.

[The Sicatoka]

Title IX is Federal law on equal opportunities for men and women. Football, by its big roster, means having to have multiple womens sports to get the numbers (participants, scholarships) equal.

I'm surprised no one has ripped apart any of the scenarios I supposed.

[legend334]

over state the obvious with football's roster...

[The Sicatoka]

over state the obvious with football's roster...

That's what you have to do when you try to explain things to BF1234.

[UND92,96]

Title IX is Federal law on equal opportunities for men and women. Football, by its big roster, means having to have multiple womens sports to get the numbers (participants, scholarships) equal.

I'm surprised no one has ripped apart any of the scenarios I supposed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A little quick research reveals the following:

We know the difference between dII and I-AA football is 27 scholarships, so how would the equivalent of 27 scholarships be added to the women's side? I don't know which of these sports are currently funded at the dII maximum, but assuming for the sake of these computations that they all are, it would break down as follows:

soccer would go from 9.9 (dII max) to 12 (dI max)

tennis would go from 6 to 8

volleyball would go from 8 to 12

That adds up to an additional 8.1 scholarships.

For the following sports in which there are both men's and women's programs, if the women's side increased its scholies but the men's side did not, the following additions would be made:

cross country/track would go from 12.6 to 18

swimming/diving would stay the same (8.1 is the limit for both dI and dII for some odd reason)

golf would go from 5.4 to 6

softball would go from 7.2 to 12

That's an additional 10.8, which is added to the 8.1 for a total of 18.9. That would leave a total of 8.1 which would still need to be accounted for. Since the addition of another women's sport would likely be cost-prohibitive, and UND has already pretty much already added every women's sport for which there is any real interest, that would probably mean the cutting of one or two men's sports. I'm not advocating it, but I'm afraid that it would be inevitable if UND were to decide to go dI. Obviously I am not getting into the issue of where all this money would come from; rather, this is simply how I would see the Title IX issue being addressed.

[Bisonfan1234]

NDSCS= 4 sports: football, bball (M/W), and volleyball.

How is that possible if by T9 you have to go by the roster size?

Actually, for NJCAA schools you only need to have an equal number of sports. It's simply the way it is for NJCAA.

So why couldn't a hypothetical BCS league do that? Scholarships?

Fine, they'll offer no scholarships (wink,wink).

[The Sicatoka]

UND92,96: Womens hockey isn't fully funded yet. DII to DI womens swimming and diving is 8.1 to 14. And your initial assumption is that UND is "DII max" in all those womens sports today which leaves a lot of margin also.

BF1234: There's more than one way to comply with Title IX. There's a section of Title IX that talks about "proportionality" meaning the opportunities have to be proportional to the make-up of the student body. If your student body is made up of 70% men you can get away with offering 70% of the athletic scholarships to men. Plus that means you can probably get away with the total student-athlete participants pool being 70% men (FB and MBB vs WBB and WVB).

[UND92,96]

UND92,96: Womens hockey isn't fully funded yet. DII to DI womens swimming and diving is 8.1 to 14. And your initial assumption is that UND is "DII max" in all those womens sports today which leaves a lot of margin also.

I do realize that it's highly unlikely that UND is currently fully funding all of the women's sports. For the purposes of the computations, I had to assume something since I'm not privy to the exact scholarship numbers at present. Also, with regard to women's hockey, I didn't address that since once it does get to fully-funded status, it should cancel out men's hockey, just as women's basketball does with men's basketball. Regarding the swimming scholarship limits, I got the info from this link. I can't vouch for its accuracy, however.

[The Sicatoka]

Regarding the swimming scholarship limits, I got the info from this link.  I can't vouch for its accuracy, however.

I agree with all of your other numbers. I got those and "14" from "Section 15.5.3.1.2 Women's Sports" of the DI manual.

[UND92,96]

[legend334]

WBB UND has 10 D@ max is 10 D1 max is 15

Softball UND has 5.5 D2 max is 7.2 D1 max is 12

Women's golf has 1 D2 max is 5.4 D1 max is 6

Women's Swimming has 6 D2 max is 8.1 D1 max is 14

Women's tennis has 2.5 D2 max is 6 D1 max is 8

Volleyball has 8 D2 max 8 D1 max is 12

Women's hockey has 9 D2 and D1 max is 18

women's soccer has 7.5 D2 max is 9.9 D1 is 12

football has 36 D2 max is 36 D1 max is 63

hockey has 18 fully funded

MBB has 10 D2 max is 10 D1 max is 13

baseball has 2.35 D2 max is 9 D1 max is 11.7

Mens Track and CC has 3.5 D2 max is 12.6 D1 max is 12.6

Men's golf .2 D2 max is 3.6 D1 max 4.5

Men's swimming 1.8 D2 max 8.1 D1 max 9.9

[UND92,96]

WBB  UND has 10  D@ max is 10  D1 max is 15

Softball UND has 5.5  D2 max is 7.2  D1 max is 12

Women's golf has 1  D2 max is 5.4  D1 max is 6

Women's Swimming has 6  D2 max is 8.1  D1 max is 14

Women's tennis has 2.5  D2 max is 6  D1 max is 8

Volleyball has 8 D2 max 8  D1 max is 12

Women's hockey has 9 D2 and D1 max is 18

women's soccer has 7.5  D2 max is 9.9  D1 is 12

football has 36  D2 max is 36  D1 max is 63

hockey has 18 fully funded

MBB has 10  D2 max is 10  D1 max is 13

baseball has 2.35  D2 max is 9  D1 max is 11.7

Mens Track and CC has 3.5  D2 max is 12.6  D1 max is 12.6

Men's golf .2  D2 max is 3.6  D1 max 4.5

Men's swimming 1.8  D2 max 8.1  D1 max 9.9

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What about women's track/cc?

[Bisonfan1234]

You forgot Indoor track. That's a seperate sport.

[The Sicatoka]

It counts as a separate sport under the sports sponsored minimums; however, the scholarship limit is based on "Cross Country/Track and Field" combined. (There's a separate number for schools only with CC and no track teams.)

[tony]

That's some pretty good information from legend334. Anyway, 18 scholarships allowed for DI for womens track & field / cross country, 12.6 for DII.

I've edited this post so if you've come back and are confused... sorry about that.

Anyway, if you want into the Big Sky, you will have to add men's tennis. That means about 32 men's scholarships plus 36-40 more scholarships for women. If UND can afford that, I don't think you'll have any trouble finding places to add scholarships for women's sports.

I don't think the Mid-Con cares what sports you offer and the MAC, well, that's just not gonna happen.

Personally, I think that there is very little chance that DII will cut scholarships to 24 in this decade - however, that's still a lot more likely than the NCAA restructuring itself so UND ends up in the same division as NDSU without moving. Why would they even be talking about lowering DII scholarships if the NCAA is going to redo the whole thing from scratch?

[GeauxSioux]

I know this is probably off the wall and may have been covered long ago, but I just wonder why UMD joined the NCC, knowing that UND could possibly leave. I've been reading here and other places that there is a possiblity of the NCC and No. Sun merging. It just doesn't make much sense.

My out way out there thought is of a new conference being formed with UND and some hockey buddies. St. Cloud, Minn. State and Duluth cannot be kept as Division II forever. Some other possible schools to join the conference could be Michigan Tech, Northern Michigan and of course UNO.

I have no idea where most of these schools are in the DI vs. DII thought process and like I said it way out there.

[The Sicatoka]

Why would they even be talking about lowering DII scholarships if the NCAA is going to redo the whole thing from scratch?

Because within the NCAA the left hand seldom knows what the right hand is doing?

Because "makes sense" and "NCAA action" seldom go together?

The MAC is less likely than going to 24 scholarships in January, agreed, but isn't much more "out there" than an invitation from any other conference.

I like the philosophy of GeauxSioux's idea (hockey schools with common interests banding together); however, the Minnesota schools are horribly cash-strapped right now and DI most likely isn't within their means. Plus, would UNO want to travel to Houghton and Marquette in January when they could join the MIAA instead?