is racism at UND fundamental?

[The Sicatoka]

It depends if you're talking about authentic Chinese, or the more common Americanized Chinese (which can be operated in good conscience by Chinese-Americans).

Americanized-Chinese run by Chinese-Americans. Somebody's on their game today.

So bad Chinese joints would be run by what? Norwegians? Greeks?

[sprig]

So bad Chinese joints would be run by what? Norwegians? Greeks?

Norwegian Chinese. Uff-da

[The Sicatoka]

Norwegian Chinese. Uff-da

"From column A I'll have the egg roll lefsa and from column B let me have the lutefisk chow mein."

[PCM]

There's a certain restaurant in Grand Forks where I would classify the food as Norwegian-Mexican.

[sprig]

There's a certain restaurant in Grand Forks where I would classify the food as Norwegian-Mexican.

[Taz Boy]

Through work, I have had the pleasure of frequenting a Chinese restaurant in southern Minnesota that serves tator tots, wings, and meat loaf as part of their noon buffet. Yeeeuuummay!

taz digs meat roaf

[sprig]

purty darn good, i suppose

[JBB]

uff da. Your racism is subtle and ingrained. That was the original point.

[PCM]

uff da. Your racism is subtle and ingrained. That was the original point.

Let's go back to the original post in which you said:

The D1 debate has exposed another subtle racist attitude coming from the UND president and the herald. There are many more athletes of color in D1 sports, except for D1 hockey. Among the many reasons given why UND should not move up to D1 is the disturbing "too many criminal problems with D1 athletes". The statement would seem to except hockey players since UND actively promotes its D1 hockey involvement and discourages all other D1 participation.

Isn't that in line with the racial and cultural insensitivity the entire UND institution has exhibited with the "naming issue"?

First, the biggest problem with your "original point" is that Kupchella isn't even from around here and was leaning toward changing the name before the State Board of Higher Education took the matter out of his hands.

Second, the Herald has run editorials supporting the name change and influential members of the newspaper's staff are known to be name-change proponents. If you displayed even the most basic knowledge of these facts, it might add a bit more credibility to your argument.

Third, you took a statement made in a Herald editorial and interpreted it in a manner in which it was never intended. In other words, you saw "subtle racism" where none existed.

Personally, I happen to think the idea that scandals follow DI athletics is a bogus argument against going DI. Obviously, there are many good DI programs in the country that aren't involved in scandals and I have no reason to believe that NDSU won't be among them.

[JBB]

What the statement says and what it was meant to say is exactly the point. It is innocent enough until its interpreted against the backdrop of the the racism controversy that engulfs the Grand Forks campus. Its an unfortunate statement with an unintended meaning, but the raw image of racism is seen by many others besides myself. In fact it was brought to my attention by others who interpreted it in that manner.

I agree about your conclusion that this is a bogus argument against D1. It fails on many levels, not only on the implied racism. NDSU will continue to be a program run on the highest of ideals with the focus always on the student athlete. Im sure you can understand the dismay his statement has caused.

[RD17]

Can't beat 'em, try the race card right, JBB? Back at ya......

T-shirt cops on high alert

By Jeff Kolpack

jkolpack@forumcomm.com

The Forum - 10/12/2002

The T-shirt police will be on the lookout today at the Fargodome. North Dakota State fans wearing

[PCM]

What the statement says and what it was meant to say is exactly the point.  It is innocent enough until its interpreted against the backdrop of the the racism controversy that engulfs the Grand Forks campus.  Its an unfortunate statement with an unintended meaning, but the raw image of racism is seen by many others besides myself.  In fact it was brought to my attention by others who interpreted it in that manner.

I agree about your conclusion that this is a bogus argument against D1.  It fails on many levels, not only on the implied racism.  NDSU will continue to be a program run on the highest of ideals with the focus always on the student athlete.  Im sure you can understand the dismay his statement has caused.

Interestingly enough, "the racism controversy that engulfs the Grand Forks campus" never seems to get much attention until hockey season starts. Why do you think that is, JBB? (Hint: Follow the Benjamins.)

And, no, I can't understand the dismay the statement caused when it neither intended nor implied any meaning of a racial nature. Just because you and a few of your like-minded friends can conjure up a racist interpretation of a statement doesn't mean it was racist. Unless you have the ability to read the minds of those who made the statements and know that they intended to imply some hidden meaning, your "it's racist because I say so" argument doesn't fly.

[The Sicatoka]

Here is Dr. Kupchella's statement:

http://www.UND.edu/president/div1.html

What he said was, "There are great problems in intercollegiate athletics in America, and while these span all the divisions of the National Collegiate Athletic Association, most scandals seem to be associated with Division I."

He did not refer to the nature or types of scandals, nor to the perpetrators.

You are attempting to associate or infer something that just is not there.

However, with your opening sentence you may have slandered Dr. Kupchella. It would be wise for you to attribute the source for the statement you have in quotation marks.

Now, having repeated myself, let me try to decipher JBB's logic:

Dr. Kupchella refers to problems and scandals in collegiate athletics. Which are those?

In the eyes of the NCAA these problems primarily relate not to the actions of athletes, but to the inappropriate activities of coaches, boosters, and alumni as they relate to athletic programs.

Considering the demographics at UND (and NDSU for that matter), most of those roles are filled by

[JBB]

I was in support of the NDSU Tee shirt police. Even though UND and it

[PCM]

I can only say this. I am greatly disappointed in NDSUs use of the entirely offensive logo in last Saturdays game program. I will be insisting that next years logo be replaced with the school initials.

It's good to learn that you'll finally be protesting NDSU's exploitation of the sacred bison. At least you're not being hypocritical.

[JBB]

Thank you! It stands in brilliant counter point to your collective position.

[Goon]

I hope you can see that in your attempts to justify your obviously improper and wholly offensive institutional and individual behaviors your logic has been stretched so thin that it now means nothing.

As all facts support the larger argument I feel comfortable in saying your university continues to be a frightful blight on the otherwise irrecusable human landscape of the Great State of North Dakota, its honorable citizenry, North Dakota State University and all of the great individuals that North Dakota's otherwise outstanding institutions of higher learning educate.

I think I can understand your overwhelming dedication to money and the seeming glory it brings you but why let it compromise all of our honor so?

As I look at some of the stuff this guy writes, It makes me scratch my head and wonder what color is the sky in your world.

Maybe JBB should read some of David Yeagly's work. I mean honestly do you think his work is less credible then some of the people supporting the change of the name. Its almost like we don't want to cloud the issue with facts...

[Goon]

Here is aood article...

I FINALLY MET RUSSELL MEANS in person. I had debated him once on the Hannity & Colmes TV show, but that was by satellite. Until last month, I had never met the controversial Indian radical, movie star, author and politician face to face.

To tell the truth, I was a bit intimidated. Russell Means is a major Indian leader compared by some to a modern Sitting Bull. Imagine my surprise upon discovering that, in a most crucial way, I am more Indian than he!

I

[PCM]

Thank you! It stands in brilliant counter point to your collective position.

I wasn't aware that I had a "collective position."

[Taz Boy]

Was I the only unfortunate soul that stumbled on to Dark Star hosting a discussion on UND's use of the "Fighting Sioux" nickname Thursday evening? His guest, none other than Vernon Bellecourt.

Unfortunately, the discussion rarely touched on the issue of the Fighting Sioux. Rather, highlighted points were the egregious behavior of Braves fans, the Cleveland Indians logo, the Redskins, the Seminoles... all with "Dark" chiming in harmoniously with Vernon.

I was embarrassed for both of them, as well as many of the follow-up callers that could barely put forth a coherent sentence. Is this typical of sports talk radio? Glad I don't listen.

taz wonders when JBB will realize he's getting his rhetorical a$$ kicked

[The Sicatoka]

So AIM co-founder Vernon Bellecourt was on? Did they talk about his 17-year-old grandson who is up on murder charges for the gunshot death of a 15-year-old on a Minnesota reservation?

JBB: Ask yourself this question: Who says "Let's go Sioux!" and who says "Sioux (self-censored)!"? Think about the message and the hidden sentiment of that second one if you're looking for skeletons.

[dagies]

Was I the only unfortunate soul that stumbled on to Dark Star hosting a discussion on UND's use of the "Fighting Sioux" nickname Thursday evening? His guest, none other than Vernon Bellecourt.

Unfortunately, the discussion rarely touched on the issue of the Fighting Sioux. Rather, highlighted points were the egregious behavior of Braves fans, the Cleveland Indians logo, the Redskins, the Seminoles... all with "Dark" chiming in harmoniously with Vernon.

I was embarrassed for both of them, as well as many of the follow-up callers that could barely put forth a coherent sentence. Is this typical of sports talk radio? Glad I don't listen.

taz wonders when JBB will realize he's getting his rhetorical a$$ kicked

Taz, I did not hear this interview.

I did hear Dark Star one evening this week. I only caught a few minutes of his show. He was talking about the NCAA wanting to take away the tournament games from UND because of the logo and nickname.

Dark was very clear that he was tired of the political correctness that is running rampant at this time, and that no one should make UND change the name if they don't want to. He did say UND should listen to the American Indian people and their wishes but it seemed to me that unless there were overwhelming numbers of AI's who wanted change and their reasons were not compelling then there is no reason UND should make a change.

I thought he rather strongly supported UND in this case.

[mksioux]

The following is an op-ed by David Yeagley written in February of 2001. I copied it from FrontPageMagazine.com. I wanted to simply post a link, but it is no longer on the site so I posted the entire article.

Don't Walk the Black Man's Path

FrontPageMagazine.com | February 13, 2001

INDIAN ELDERS used to warn against "walking the white man's road." But, since the late 1960s, I'm afraid it is the "black man's path" that has posed a greater peril for us.

By the black man's path, I mean the familiar strategy of black civil rights leaders, who bait, belittle, provoke and bully white people, then run for cover, screaming "racist" when their white victims react.

Sadly, more and more young Indians are following this path, thanks to the influence of leftwing college professors and media personalities such as Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton.

Take the current disturbances at the University of North Dakota. The university has a mascot called, "The Fighting Sioux." Some Indian students have called it offensive and demanded that it be changed.

Not surprisingly, white students and alumni have fought back. One alumnus currently building an $85-million hockey arena for the university has threatened to kill the project if the name is changed.

As a member of the Comanche tribe, my name is on all the Indian mailing lists. I recently got an e-mail calling for solidarity with the UND protesters. It says that Indian students have suffered physical attacks, name-calling, slashed tires, and broken windshields. Indian students at UND now face a "hostile environment," says the e-mail. Many are seeking to transfer to other schools, to escape their abusive classmates.

Physical attacks of this sort are deplorable. The culprits should be caught and punished. At the same time, the Indian students have to accept their own responsibility for helping to create the "hostile environment" they now face.

I'm all for fighting when there's something to fight about. But, in my view, this is not the case at UND. Why should any Indian object if a university has an Indian warrior as its emblem? The purpose of a mascot is to inspire the school's athletes to fight hard and win. That the school chose an Indian to represent its fighting spirit is a sign of respect. It shows an admiration for the courage and manliness of the Sioux warrior, who laid so many whites in their graves just a few generations ago.

All of this seems perfectly obvious to me. But those who have chosen to walk the "black man's path" are experts at finding things to get offended about. Virtually everything that white people do, no matter how innocuous, can be cited as an excuse to cry "racist."

Take the name game. Every few years, leftwing black academics announce to their people that they must now call themselves something different. At one time, it was colored, then Negro, then Afro-American, then black, then African-American and so on. None of these names are better or worse than any of the others. Not long ago I was interviewed by black conservative talk show host Ken Hamblin. He told me that he's perfectly happy being "colored." Yet many black Americans have been conditioned to treat the nuances between these words as matters of life and death. Try calling a black man a "Negro" nowadays and see what sort of reaction you get. The name game creates new sources of friction out of thin air, for no good reason. As fast as white people get used to one name, black people change it. That way, no one ever quite knows what to call them, and everyone has to tippy-toe around on eggshells trying to figure out how to avoid giving offense.

I don't pretend to know why so many African-Americans go in for this sort of nonsense. But I do know that many blacks, such as Ken Hamblin, refuse to indulge in it, and for that I respect them. What concerns me is that so many Indians nowadays - and especially the younger generation - seem to be following the worst examples.

Back in the late '60s, some Indians even started playing their own version of the name game, by calling themselves Native Americans. I don't know who started it. Maybe it was a white liberal. To this day, most Indians still prefer to be called Indians. I know I do. But white people now have to tippy-toe around calling us Native Americans, for fear that we will take offense. It's all about playing the victim. Frankly, I find it weak and undignified. It's not the way of our warrior ancestors.

Those young Indians at UND should end their needless fight with the university. The pursuit of academic excellence would be a far better testing ground for their warrior spirit.

[Goon]

Here is another good article. Notice that it takes a shot at one of UND own. Hum, I still think that I would rather take Yeagley's word than some of the talking heads we see around the issue in our home town...

Where Were The Fighting Whites?

By David Yeagley

FrontPageMagazine.com | May 1, 2002

I JUST RETURNED from the newly-famous battlefield of the Fighting Whites, at the University of Northern Colorado. But there were no fighting whites. I

[Taz Boy]

Taz, I did not hear this interview.

I did hear Dark Star one evening this week. I only caught a few minutes of his show. He was talking about the NCAA wanting to take away the tournament games from UND because of the logo and nickname.

Dark was very clear that he was tired of the political correctness that is running rampant at this time, and that no one should make UND change the name if they don't want to. He did say UND should listen to the American Indian people and their wishes but it seemed to me that unless there were overwhelming numbers of AI's who wanted change and their reasons were not compelling then there is no reason UND should make a change.

I thought he rather strongly supported UND in this case.

Dark was clearly on Vernon's side last night (Thursday, 10/17), almost patronizing. Very much supporting his efforts to remove NA nicknames from all of sports. Dark's mantra was basically that schools should just abide by the wishes of the NA leaders. He never once challenged any of the outrageous statistical claims Bellecourt spewed out. It was laughable.

I think he takes this position just to rile up callers. He didn't really seem that interested in the whole thing-- joking around a lot, interrupting for a Wild interview, going off topic. Certainly his heart wasn't in it. His show is bad. I've listened to him rant after Vikes games and he's just in it to p!ss folks off.

Very bad radio, even for the 10pm slot.

taz