Division 1: Not so fast

[PCM]

Before anyone gets too excited about UND making the jump to Division 1 or potentially joining the Gateway Conference with Northern Iowa, they might want to take a look at the article by Virg Foss in Sunday's Grand Forks Herald.

[sprig]

Would be interested in seeing "Northern Iowa's (the poster here) response to what the UNI AD said in the article. Sounds like it will be a tough road for the Bison, Northern Colorado, and SD (or is it SDSU?).

[jimdahl]

Before anyone gets too excited about UND making the jump to Division 1 or potentially joining the Gateway Conference with Northern Iowa, they might want to take a look at the article by Virg Foss in Sunday's Grand Forks Herald.

That article repeats a lot of the negatives we've talked about here:

NDSU is going to have a tough time going it alone, attendance will not rise and costs will go up. NDSU also doesn't have any programs it can drop, so it simply has to get more money. NDSU is clearly taking this longer than necessary transition period in the hopes that other NCC schools will join them. I may have to eat my words here, but I doubt it: some NDSU fans are deluding themselves thinking Big Sky or any other premiere D-IAA conference has any interest in letting NDSU (or UND) join.

That said, I still think UND can move, but only if they can get enough of the NCC to move at once to form a new D-IAA NCC. That solves the conference affiliation problem, cuts costs, keeps traditional rivals, etc... UND definitely should not move without a conference affiliation in hand first.

[star2city]

Dream Conference for UND

The only way UND should move to Division I is if it can get into a conference of institutions that are similar or complementary in areas of academics, research, alumni support, and are residential campuses. Conferences such as the PAC-10, Big 10, and even the Ivy League define the individual schools just as much the schools define the conference. Smaller Division I conferences are often schizophrenic in their makeup and not especially stable in their membership. The NCC is a higher level conference from this viewpoint than many Div. I conferences.

Six regional schools that would seem most complimentary to UND in their mission, and size are USD, NDSU, SDSU, Univ. of Montana, Montana State, and Univ. of Idaho. They serve as flagship schools in their states, have similar histories, and similar aspirations. Four of them have professional schools: Idaho, Montana, USD, and UND, and four are land grant institutions: Idaho, MSU, NDSU, SDSU. Idaho State or Eastern Washington could be possible eighth members.

The athletic facilites are similar at UND, NDSU, USD, MSU, Idaho State and Idaho, as all have domed stadiums for football. Of all the schools, Idaho has the most advanced athletic program, as it is in Division IA in football. However, from facilities and financial standpoints, Idaho is having difficulty maintaining this level of play and probably would go back to I-AA if it could go back gracefully. They have already stated that returning to the Big Sky is not an option. After Idaho, Boise State, and Nevada left the Big Sky Conference, Montana and Montana State became the strongest anchors for the Big Sky. Both schools would dearly love to have Idaho back as a conference rival and both would probably rather play I-AA UND and NDSU than Sacramento State. If somehow, someway, Montana and Montana State could be convinced that their best interests were to form a new I-AA conference (which would be a huge risk for them as they would lose their chance for an NCAA automatic bid for years) with Idaho and the four NCC schools, UND would be looking at the best possible conference for all sports that could ever be reasonably and responsibly imagined. A Northwestern Conference composed of eight schools would have an incredible cachet, historical significance (Lewis/Clark, trappers/traders, Statehood 1889/1890, east/west railroads/highway, farmers/ranchers, merchants/miners) strong rivalries, reasonable travel (at most two trips across the plains for each sport excluding tournaments), and strengthen natural recruiting tendencies. (The mountain schools look west and the plains schools look east for recruits.) Interest in cities such as Rapid City, Billings, Great Falls, and Bismarck would greatly increase. Most importantly, it would further invigorate all the schools involved by bonding together universities of similar and complementary histories and missions. Such a conference would elevate all schools athletically and, more importantly, academically. It would be a conference worthy of UND pursuing Division I.

The possibility of forming such a conference at the moment is almost nil. But in 2004, when new rules come into effect for IA football, there will most likely be wholesale reshuffling of the lower Division I conferences. That may be the opportune time for a conference change.

[jimdahl]

The possibility of forming such a conference at the moment is almost nil. But in 2004, when new rules come into effect for IA football, there will most likely be wholesale reshuffling of the lower Division I conferences. That may be the opportune time for a conference change.

Good point on the new rules. There's been a lot of talk in the NCAA about breaking D-I up in new ways.

Nice analysis of the ideal situation. However, if we can't achieve that situation, I'm not sure how being in a D-II conference with Duluth, Mankato, St Cloud, Moorhead is better than being in a D-IAA conference with NDSU, UNC, SDSU, USD and maybe a couple others... Also, being D-IAA in a less than ideal situation gets us closer to that ideal than staying D-II. Being D-IAA without a conference affiliation is definitely the worst option, though.

[JBB]

Although the official drumbeat against D1 is not changing its easy to see a change in tone from the grassroots represented here. In fact, an uninformed reader might think that UND was actually leading the move rather than languishing in the background trying to put the best spin on a situation that will be disastrous for their D2 sports: losing all top recruits to the plentiful full ride scholarship money pouring out of NDSU and SDSU.

Its amazing to see how travel costs no longer figure in to the negatives when the ideal conference for UND is designed. In fact added costs aren't mentioned when the ideal D2 NCC is redesigned.

Now that the strategy of preserving an exclusive D1 affiliation for UND in hockey has failed how does the UND administration get out of the anti D1 mode? How are the D2 coaches at UND going to feel when all of their peers at NDSU are getting D1 paychecks just like their peers at the UND D1 athletic department, of which they are not a part. How are you going to keep Dale Lennon here when Sac State comes calling?

It might have been simpler for UND to try and be part of the change instead of allowing englestad to isolate you in this fashion, but no sport can have the big spot light except hockey. Has there been any talk about moving all sports except hockey down to D3 like so many of the other D1 hockey schools?

[The Sicatoka]

The University of North Dakota is open to an eventual move to Division I, but there is no great interest among our athletic staff, coaches, or boosters and we see no particular gain to making such a move at this time. We do not believe that such a move would currently be in the best interests of our students or the people of North Dakota. If NCAA rules were to become less mercenary and more educationally rational; if the rapid escalation of the cost of Division I sports were to be reversed somehow; if the restrictions on schools making the move were made less severe; or if very many NCC schools make the move to D-I; then we could well give it some extra consideration.

That is from Dr. Kupchella's statement six months ago.

http://www.fightingsioux.com/other.asp?RELEASE_ID=1179

[The Sicatoka]

Now let's parse what Dr. K said there.

UND would look at D-I, but there's no interest at this time. He specifically mentioned staff and coaches. How many Bison coaches were at the D-I announcement? Exactly one: Bob Babich. NDSU made a football driven decision. Even NDSU's most senior coaches (Maughn and Ruley) weren't there. What's that say?

Not in the best interest of students and the State? Well, NDSU has already said they're raising student fees. And the State recently had to both cut spending and take funds from the Bank of ND to cover budget shortfalls. Adding expense to satisfy ego doesn't seem fiscally wise at this time. (Yes, you can say 'no State funds were harmed in NDSU going D-I' but that money has to come from somewhere. The economy's down. You're going to get more bucks from Team Makers? Seriously?)

The probationary periods are silly. Sure, don't give them a cut of the money to try to slow gready teams down from moving up, but let the kids play in post season. You think you have Cinderellas now? And what does no post season really teach the student-athletes, the kids?

Cost is cost is cost. Period. Ohio State spent more on sports than UND got, to run the whole school, from the State of ND. (See above link.) How do you compete with that?

And the closing is UND and Dr. K's way out: If the league goes, how does UND not?

I'll leave you with the quote of the weekend:

I sat at a HS FB game with a Team Maker over the weekend. I said, "Well, moving Bison FB to D-IAA probably makes some sense, but I feel sorry for the rest of the coaches." He said, "You don't move a program up when it's sliding down where it's at already."

[The Sicatoka]

Has there been any talk about moving all sports except hockey down to D3 like so many of the other D1 hockey schools?

Yup, UND'll be going down to D-III right after some of the other D-I hockey schools like Michigan, Michigan State, Miami of Ohio, Bowling Green, Notre Dame, Ohio State, Western Michigan, Air Force, Brown, Colgate, Cornell, Dartmouth, Harvard, Princeton, Yale, Boston College, Boston U, Maine, New Hampshire, UMass, Northeastern, Providence, Canisius, UConn, Holy Cross, Quinnipiac, Alaska-Anchorage, Minnesota, and Wisconsin finish their transitions down to D-III.

[JBB]

UND has always seen the relationship with NDSU as a zero sum game. The history of its

[The Sicatoka]

Fargo's always been larger than Grand Forks. Why is it suddenly an issue? UND has survived just fine in a smaller Grand Forks. Sorry, but I don't see this as an issue. And if it really is about athletics, those coming losing seasons during the transition aren't going to be good community PR.

And how is UND "blocking" NDSU from doing this? UND is merely stating it's position. They've allowed themselves an 'out' from that position as well.

What would you have UND do, announce they too are going D-I? Then you'd be ranting that UND is doing it to overshadow NDSU's move. By saying UND is "blocking" the move you are nearly admitting that NDSU can't do this unless UND comes along for the ride.

GF will lose the Fargo hockey market? Now I know you are diluted. The hockey fans in Fargo are primarily UND alums. They wouldn't support a Bison program anyway. And in general, hockey support in Fargo is a non-issue at best. Evidence: Concordia's nationally outstanding D-III program draws about 600 per game; the USHL has had TWO franchises in Fargo fold. (Bears, IceSharks)

Now, more than 60 teams play D-I hockey. That list is those that I am sure are D-I schools. I believe Brown, Vermont, Army, Denver U, and Western Michigan are D-I also. That's more than half that are D-I. UND is "playing up" in that group.

Other schools? UMass-Lowell, Merrimack, Clarkson, Rensselaer, St. Lawrence, Union, American Int'l, Bentley, Fairfield, Iona, Mercyhurst, Sacred Heart, Alaska-Fairbanks, Ferris State, Lake Superior State, UN-Omaha, Northern Michigan, Colorado College, Michigan Tech, UM-Duluth, Mankato, St. Cloud, Alabama-Huntsville, Bemidji State, Findlay, Niagara, Wayne State. (I'm pretty sure AIU, Iona, Wayne State, and Mercyhurst play in some watered down D-I conference, but I'll count them as not D-I also.)

And is it because UND wants a low-budget approach, or is it because UND knows what it costs to run a big-time, national championship contending Division I program?

Go back and read some of the quotes from the UNI AD. NDSU's trying to model after them. They're cutting programs after a D-IAA FB playoff appearance.

Personally, I'm interested in seeing what the NCAA comes out with in 2004. It wouldn't surprise me to see the biggest of the bigs "move up" (create a new level for themselves) for the same reasons that NDSU wants to move up: small, low-budget no-names are coming in and diluting where they're currently at.

[jimdahl]

UND has always seen the relationship with NDSU as a zero sum game.

[...]

This is not about athletics at all, but about the University as a whole.  Its another sign that NDSU and Fargo ar moving ahead of grand forks and UND.

[...]

This is not about athletics at all, but about the University as a whole.  It another sign that NDSU and Fargo are moving ahead of grand forks and UND. This is what lies behind the incredible flow of misinformation coming out of the grand forks area about this issue.

You make claims like "UND sees the relationship with NDSU as a zero sum game" and complain how Grand Forks and UND fans are disparaging Fargo and NDSU. However, the only disparaging I see anywhere on this message board is coming from you against UND and Grand Forks. I've quoted portions of your last post above. Every post of yours ends with a tirade about how Fargo is the best and NDSU is better than UND.

I've seen no UND fans touting UND's superiority. Instead we're just trying to have a conversation about the benefits and challenges NDSU will face, and the implications of NDSU's and UNC's moves for UND.

[JBB]

The reception NDSU is getting from the D1 schools and conferences is far different than the picture being painted by the herald. My question is this. Why isn't the view from grand forks ever positive for NDSU and its decision. Why is it always negative and disparaging?

I believe NDSU has already explored the many options that may present themselves with the changing rules. In fact I believe NDSU is ready to go it alone unitl that time. Several possible new conference opportunities were explored in depth in the Fargo Forum earlier this fall.

Its clear to me that D1 sports and D1AA football are going to present opportunity for schools like NDSU. The middle division will grow from schools like NDSU joining and others moving down. The important thing is to get the clock running on the probationary periods.

This was a good move for NDSU. It is creating excitiement and anticipation in Fargo. Now that the decision is made many people that were reluctant or against it are now on board. Its going to make NDSU sports far more marketable and bring a tremendous focus on Fargo and NDSU that is not there now. Its also going to bring most of the talented regional athelets to Fargo as the scholarship money begning to become available.

[PCM]

Here's a breakdown on schools with Division I hockey programs.

D-IA (big time FB): 13

Boston College, UConn, Bowling Green, Miami of Ohio, Michigan, Michigan

State, Notre Dame, Ohio State, Western Michigan, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Air

Force, Army.

D-IAA (small time FB): 16

Maine, UMass, New Hampshire, Northeastern, Brown, Colgate, Cornell,

Dartmouth, Harvard, Princeton, Yale, Canisius, Fairfield, Holy Cross, Iona,

Sacred Heart.

D-IAAA (D-I but no FB): 6

Boston U, Providence, Vermont, Quinnipiac, Denver, Niagara.

D-II: 20

North Dakota, Michigan Tech, Alaska-Anchorage, Northern Michigan, UN-Omaha, St. Cloud, Minnesota State-Mankato, UM-Duluth, Wayne State, Findlay, Bemidji State, Alabama-Huntsville, Lake Superior State, Mercyhurst, Bentley, American International, Merrimack, Ferris State, Alaska-Fairbanks, UMass-Lowell.

D-III: 5

Clarkson, Rensselaer, St. Lawrence, Union College, Colorado College.

Summary: There are more wimpy D-Is (no FB) than D-IIIs in college hockey.

[The Sicatoka]

JBB:

We'll have to agree to disagree. I know a lot of Bison supporters. I've seen the anti-D-I sentiment in that group hold steady at about 8 or 9 to 1.

The Herald editorial board thinks it's a bad idea. So? Dr. Kupchella thinks the same way. So? If this is so wonderful, why are you so concerned about them? Go your own way. Be happy. Start raising all of that additional capital to bring in all those students (to teams that are on probation until fall of 2008).

Forget what the Herald says. Look at what UNI's AD says. Look at what Sacramento State's (Big Sky) AD said. Message: Those conferences aren't looking to add right now. I'm guessing those conferences are waiting to see what the NCAA 2004 "relook at divisions" fallout is.

However, you've heard it here. There is a lot of UND sentiment that says if the league went UND'd go along. I'm guessing if SDSU goes, so go USD and UND. Logistically it'd help them all especially in terms of travel and schedule. Heck, maybe UNI'd dump that two conferences/long travel mess they're in now and re-join the NCC. That'd help them in those terms as well. (UND is closer and logistically better to UNI than is Indiana State.)

You're painting UND as holding NDSU from doing this. I ask how? NDSU did what it wanted. I know if UND does change its stance you'll howl about UND trying to steal the spotlight. Either way it's all UND's fault. I guess UND must just be the source of all evil for NDSU. It must be The Vast Fighting Sioux Conspiracy* hard at work again.

* Remember, we're the guys that caused a 63% no vote to Fargo Arena even though NDSU's own voting district voted more 'no' than that rate!

[donalexander]

If UND were to move to D1, would it then be eligible for some of the money generated by the D1 hockey tournament? I think I heard once that UND does not receive any of the tournament money since it is not fully division 1. Does anyone know for sure if this is the case?

[Northern Iowa]

I read the interview with the UNI AD. Now, I'm no athletic director, but it all seemed strange to me, especially the "we've all paid our dues already" stuff. ?

I think one of the things to keep it mind is that, if we're talking immediate jump up to 1-AA, he's right on some points. But, the integration, if it happens, will take more time than we think. As you could see from my previous thread, even I get caught up in that dreamy, "we should play the Dakota teams now," thing. But, unlike the UNI AD, I'm an "inclusive" kind of guy. The more teams, the merrier. Turning down teams because they might beat you, what's that about?

Also read the article from the Greeley sportswriter regarding UNC. He's naive to the point of annoyance. My feeling is that UND is truly making the moves in order to start playing Colorado and Colorado State. During this time an an independent, they can use the money from such games to build the program. They might even take the Troy State route and play Nebraska and all those other big teams and build a war chest. Who knows?

In the final analysis, no matter what an AD says right now, the Gateway Conference or some other 1-AA conference will take on some of the NCC teams. It's down the road, after some of which these AD's might be gone.

NI

[The Sicatoka]

If UND were to move to D1, would it then be eligible for some of the money generated by the D1 hockey tournament? I think I heard once that UND does not receive any of the tournament money since it is not fully division 1. Does anyone know for sure if this is the case?

Your statement is accurate.

The 2000 Frozen Four was very profitable for Michigan and BC. St. Lawrence and UND were the other two there that year.

Because St. Lawrence is DIII and UND is DII, Michigan and BC split the participant's pot two ways instead of four.

They forced UND to take home a trophy and banner instead of dollars.

We won't talk about 2001.

[JBB]

With 47 schools in D1AA football, D2 or D3 or no scholarship football and only 13 true D1A institutions in all sports playing hockey its diffuclt to take "D1 Hockey" seriously as a D1 sport. I also note that D1AA football is labled small time but D2 football is not labled. Doesnt it get a time lable. Like Big time, small time and part time or something like that?

I dont want to UND move their sports up with NDSU. I know many people will disagree with this, but I think the areguments UND is making to stay in D2 are right. They wont be able to win, there is no monetary advantage, travel will be too expensive, big deal if the universities name gets scrolled across the bottom of the screen, its too expensive, regional athelets wont have a chance, no more titles, athletes in D1 (not hockey of course) are criminals, the probationary period will be too long, the end of "the rivalry", etc etc. I believe each of these arguments is true for UND and grand forks but not for NDSU and Fargo.

I guess that is my frustration with the issue: people at UND and grand forks are unable to separate their understanding of their market with the Fargo market. I think an admission that their arguments against D1 are correct for grand forks/UND but do not apply to the much larger Fargo Metro area and a fast growing Progessive and Prestigious NDSU is in order if there is ever to be any understanding on this issue.

[The Sicatoka]

... its diffuclt to take "D1 Hockey" seriously as a D1 sport.

I hope a Gopher, Badger, Wolverine, Spartan, or BC Eagles fan didn't hear that. "Shredded" would be the best you could hope for.

[The Sicatoka]

I dont want to UND move their sports up with NDSU.  I know many people will disagree with this, but I think the areguments UND is making to stay in D2 are right.  They wont be able to win, there is no monetary advantage, travel will be too expensive, big deal if the universities name gets scrolled across the bottom of the screen, its too expensive, regional athelets wont have a chance, no more titles, athletes in D1 (not hockey of course) are criminals, the probationary period will be too long, the end of "the rivalry", etc etc.  I believe each of these arguments is true for UND and grand forks but not for NDSU and Fargo.

I guess that is my frustration with the issue: people at UND and grand forks are unable to separate their understanding of their market with the Fargo market.  I think an admission that their arguments against D1 are correct for grand forks/UND but do not apply to the much larger Fargo Metro area and a fast growing Progessive and Prestigious NDSU is in order if there is ever to be any understanding on this issue.

Back to UND and Grand Forks, eh? (Intentional Canadian/hockey ending, eh? )

You are making the classic reverse psychology argument. Paraphrased: "GF just can't do it." But NDSU hopes to have SDSU as a travel partner in a new league? GF can't but Brookings can? Pardon me if I scoff at that.

It proves that deep inside you know that NDSU needs the 20k FB gate that UND and very few others could provide (Was the unfortunately cancelled Maine game sold out? I don't believe it was quite there.) and it needs the benefits of a D-I(AA) new NCC. Getting IAAs from 1000 miles away to come to Fargo to play won't be cheap, and remember, most (non-conference game) teams want a payday on a trip like that.

Logistically and fiscally, going D-I(AA) doesn't make sense unless a group would go together. It solves the travel costs issues to a significant extent. That's why NDSU hopes SDSU goes. If SDSU goes, expect USD to follow and then comes UND.

Check out the link to Article 3 at

http://www3.sdstate.edu/Athletics/Division...Study/Index.cfm

SDSU as much as admits that they need a IAA NCC to make it really work. (And they hinted that they may prefer a conference FB scholarship limit under 63 at the start. Bet you love to hear that.) Honestly, how's NDSU any different? How's any NCC team, save for UNC, with more D-I(AA)s, near by, any different?

PS - If FargoDome is so 'prestigious', why is the lighting so terrible? The endzones are dark and the lights are at angles such that they shine in your eyes if you are sitting in box seating. Is Fargo going to 'progressively' fix that any time soon? I'm not trying to be malicious here. I do believe lighting there is a problem.

[jimdahl]

I guess that is my frustration with the issue: people at UND and grand forks are unable to separate their understanding of their market with the Fargo market.  I think an admission that their arguments against D1 are correct for grand forks/UND but do not apply to the much larger Fargo Metro area and a fast growing Progessive and Prestigious NDSU is in order if there is ever to be any understanding on this issue.

I thought we'd settled this -- the majority of the people on this board don't agree with your base assumption that NDSU is more prestigious and inherently superior to UND. Since we disagree on that base assumption, it's no doubt that we reach different conclusions.

While size of the city is a significant difference, Fargo and Grand Forks are both close enough in size and geography (both are very small cities "in the middle of nowhere", and only 1 hr drive for a Fargoan to go to a UND game) that I don't think that would have a huge effect. If I were more ambitious I could do research and list the successful D-I programs in smaller metro areas, but I assume you're not disputing they exist.

[JBB]

Gopher, Badger, Wolverine, Spartan and BC Eagles are among the 13 true D1 programs playing. UND is part of the 47 pretenders. Naturally, you want acceptance so you take offense for your "peers" that they may be less than D1 because of the overwhelming dominance of non D1 athletic departments populating the sport?

You have something to be proud of in hockey. Its too bad you cant allow NDSU to move ahead without perpetuating the constant negative sentiments and forceful propaganda against the decision. When the NDSU Decision is attacked or belittled I have the same feelings you do when the UND D1 hockey program is attacked or belittled.

The issue of D1 for UND should be framed around UND and its circumstances. The case against it shouldn't be made by framing it around NDSU, especially when the environment that NDSU finds itself is is very different than unds. By doing this all of the interested parties at UND are not being given a legitimate chance to make an informed and calculated decision.

NDSU did not move ahead in a rash or unthinking manner. The decision was studied from every angle with every constituent in the debate. The end result was arrived at only after a belabored and intensive study. I suggest UND do the same if they are interested and do it without mentioning NDSU. NDSU was able to do it without once mentioning UND. If, as it seems, the UND decision has already been made there is no further need to talk about it. I hope it has and UND stays put.

With that I also agree to disagree.

[The Sicatoka]

If I were more ambitious I could do research and list the successful D-I programs in smaller metro areas, but I assume you're not disputing they exist.

University of Maine, Orono, Maine: It's four hours by car down I-95 to anything.

Orono is a suburb of Bangor (population 38000). The 'greater metro' (75 mile radius, Bangor, Orono, etc.) is about 90000.

There's the best comparison possible for UND. Why? Same size towns (GF probably has a better 75 mile population number) and they have NCAA Division I hockey titles too!

I'll save JBB the trouble: Maine plays IAA football.

[The Sicatoka]

Its too bad you cant allow NDSU to move ahead without perpetuating the constant negative sentiments and forceful propaganda against the decision.

When has UND done that?

Roger Thomas has been very careful in his public statements to frame them around UND.

Dr. Kupchella's statement was framed solely around UND.

If you're uptight about an internet posting board where people can express their opinions about the move, that's a little paranoid. None of us here speak officially for The University of North Dakota.

Like I said, NDSU made its decision. Have at it. UND plans to watch the rest of the cards play out and they've said so.