Nothing on the Horizon

[star2city]

Nobody has yet shown me that theres any reason that SDSU and NDSU wouldn't also be added.  See my above post.

Aff:

If the media size/cable TV contract issues, or the "must add money to my pocket", or the 10-team vs 12-team arguments didn’t convince you, how about two more?

First, if the Mid-Con really was to add the three teams of your choosing, and split into two divisions, the division break-out and travel partners would be this:

East

Oakland - IUPUI

Valpo - Chicago St.

W. Ill - UMKC

West

Oral Roberts - Centenary

S. Utah (or Denver) - UNC

NDSU - SDSU

Note: no way would the Mich-Ind schools want Oral Roberts and Centenary (both faith-based schools who are committed travel partners) in the East, they would want W. Ill and UMKC

ORU and Centenary would get stuck with horrible travel. They would firmly say ‘no’. Now if instead of NDSU-SDSU, there was another pair, say TAMCC-UTPA. With that pairing, a north-south division arrangement is possibie and ORU and Centenary would be more likely to vote affirmatively.

Second and more important:

The Mid-Con knows which schools are most likely to receive a conference upgrade: Southern Utah to the Big Sky and Valpo and Oakland to the Horizon League (if Butler and Detroit from that conference join the Atlantic 10). What they really need to guard against is if a fourth school moves, then the Mid-Con might lose its auto-bid. Adding one or three more schools would provide more insurance against the loss of their Auto-bid, but only if the schools are full Div I members (not provisional members). NDSU and SDSU, being provisional members, do not meet the “insurance” criteria which Mid-Con Presidents will demand. TAMCC, UTPA, IPFW, and Denver all would help the Mid-Con protect their auto-bid. NDSU and SDSU would provide no auto-bid insurance until 2008-2009. In my view, this issues prevents NDSU/SDSU from getting serious consideration until the summer of 2007, at best. Take it to the bank!

[The Sicatoka]

For them to say it's not a deadline, that's wrong." -- South Dakota State Sen. Clarence Kooistra, R-Garretson

A state senator believes that some organization ("them") in the state higher education system is not following a deadline. It would be very surprising to find that he is the only state legislator with that interpretation. The "them" won't matter when the political ramifications start to come about, and as everything does, it will turn political.

[JACKGUY]

Clarence Kooistra has tried on repeated occasions to try and block SDSU's move to DI. He has failed on all attempts and carries absolutely no clout or respect in the legislature. If there is one legislator we would want opposing this move he is the one. Since the move was approved by the Board of Regents we have added a proponent in the Govenor who is an SDSU grad and other supporters in the Board of Regentswho have been appointed by the Govenor. If you knew anything about Clarence Kooistra you would understand his bills are usually are DOA and this stand is no different. There is absolutley no chance the DI move will be reversed. You should spend more time lobbying your own administration to wake up and move up with the rest of us.

[The Sicatoka]

Even if Kooistra is exactly as you say, he has still raised the issue. Who knows where it goes from there. If it remains the realm of collegiate athletics you'll probably be right. If it turns political (state dollars, taxpayers, budgets) all bets are off.

It'd be tough to claim the UND Administration needs to "wake up" when you read the "Scheduling/Division I" section of these UND IAC meeting minutes. They're awake.

[airmail]

UND IAC meeting minutes

What is the $130,000 expense to the Fighting Sioux Club?

[UND Fan]

I am sure the costs related to the administration of the FSC are assigned to the Athletic Department: salaries/benefits & travel for a couple of people, printing, mailing, pre-game functions, etc.

For almost $1.5 million in revenue, $130,000 in expenses seems appropriate.

[JACKGUY]

No doubt you have better facilities than the rest of us. I'm waiting for our Ralph to surface. I wonder if their stance on DI has changed in the last year.

[jackrabbit1979]

Star 2 city,

you seem to be very knowledgable and i have enjoyed reading your posts on the topics at hand but, you only provide the negative aspects of this move. Even you as a UND supporter have to see some positives in the SU's quest for DI.

First, Clarence Kooistra as mentioned is an idiot. He is South Dakota's Ross Perot, a lot of talk but little support and no chance of ever getting anything accomplished. He is not from vermillion like mentioned above and i believe he is actually an SDSU grad so not necessarily a talking head for USD. Just one that we let go off the deep end.

Second, I think the Mid-Con will add NDSU, SDSU, and UNC. Not only would they have a travel partner for Denver, but also another set of partners in their North/South plan. Why do you even bring up how terrible an east/west system would be when a north/south plan is obvious. The mid-con also has strong ties to the introduction and management of the Great west football conference yet another link to the three schools mentioned above. You talk about markets and about Denver and the twin cities being big players in the confernece hunt but you fail to realize that the schools affiliated to those cities (Denver U, UNC, UMD, UND as you point out, Etc) will always play second fiddle in those markets to UofM, CSU, Univ. of Colo. etc. Look at the fan attendance of either NDSU and SDSU compared to rest of the mid con numbers and see if they would benefit the conference by bringin in different markets. Obviously NDSU is the media star in Fargo, and much of ND just like SDSU is or will become in much of SD as the move progresses.

We are understandably not totally attractive to conferneces until our provisional time is up but what can you do. It is one of the bad things about moving to DI. You seem to think that as soon as a conference(like the Horizon) offers UND and Duluth a chance to move up you will. What about the 5 years of provisional status then. The chances of a conference asking a school to move up to DI is ridiculous. No one would even look at the SU's until they had officially jumped up. I don't think the Horizon will come knocking of your guys door no offense.

Either way, we all have our opinions, i wish you guys nothing but luck in D2 as i would hope you would wish us the best in D1. Think what it would say about the NCC if two schools can leave and become competitive in D1 fairly soon.

[aff]

First, Clarence Kooistra as mentioned is an idiot. He is South Dakota's Ross Perot, a lot of talk but little support and no chance of ever getting anything accomplished. He is not from vermillion like mentioned above and i believe he is actually an SDSU grad so not necessarily a talking head for USD. Just one that we let go off the deep end.

Jackrabbit, I was under the impression that Kooistra was the current rep. from whatever county vermillion is in, I can't remember the name of it. If this was incorrect I'm not sure where I got it from.

You seem to think that as soon as a conference(like the Horizon) offers UND and Duluth a chance to move up you will. What about the 5 years of provisional status then. The chances of a conference asking a school to move up to DI is ridiculous. No one would even look at the SU's until they had officially jumped up. I don't think the Horizon will come knocking of your guys door no offense.

This was exactly the point I was going to make too. Starcity, if UND is waiting for a D-I conference to give them an invite while they are still D-2, then hell will freeze over before UND becomes D-I. I think that UND isn't moving up right now because of financial reasons, and the administration clinging to the hope that the D-I hockey program will continue to provide the idea that UND is already a D-I school, which it may, I don't know. Why do you think that that any conference would pick UND-UMD as travel partners? Why wouldn't they select SDSU-UMD or NDSU-UMD. As you said before, the probationary period hurts a schools chances of getting into a conference, and both SDSU and NDSU will have at least a one year advantage on UND for the probationary period, plus the same general geographic area.

Why do you even bring up how terrible an east/west system would be when a north/south plan is obvious.

Thats exactly right. I wouldn't doubt it if the Midcon adds UNC, SDSU and NDSU this summer. In any case it doesn't look like SDSU is doing too bad for bball scheduling as a provisional school any way, according the Grand Forks paper today.

NDSU and SDSU would provide no auto-bid insurance until 2008-2009. In my view, this issues prevents NDSU/SDSU from getting serious consideration until the summer of 2007, at best. Take it to the bank!

The midcon may be worried that SDSU and NDSU won't be interested in 2007, plus they would have to compete to get the schools into the conferences with others such as the big sky. If they add them now, they will be able to dictate entrance terms to them i.e. entrance fees into the conference. If they wait, they may not get everything they want from the schools.

[star2city]

(I) have enjoyed reading your posts on the topics at hand but, you only provide the negative aspects of this move.  Even you as a UND supporter have to see some positives in the SU's quest for DI.

jackrabbit1979,

I never really expected to get a compliment from an SDSU fan (BTW, I am an admirer of your basketball programs), so thanks. Agreed that there can be compelling reasons to be a Division I institution, but when boosters and administrators become infatuated with the publicity potential, too often the results are not positive: financially, or by missing or neglecting non-athletic opportunitites because of the administrative focus on the div I move, or being viewed as the dregs of Div I. It’s fine to be optimistic on one hand, but I personally don’t think NDSU and SDSU Div I fans comprehend that a heavy dose of realism in the other hand is necessary and healthy.

Responses to you and aff's points are on the next post.

[star2city]

If UND should ever announce a move to Division I, facilities, media capability, endowments, and a monetary reserve should already be in place in the likelihood of several years of “drought”. But more importantly, I would expect a conference affiliation plan to be well along in the informal talking stages, rather than seeking a conference after declaring Div I intentions. This is a major issue I have with SDSU and NDSU, as they seem to act as if moving to Division I is a series of studies (i.e. Carr Report) and then a paperwork reclassification exercise, when in fact conference affiliation is the key issue, which normally requires an extraordinary amount of political contacts, personal interaction skills, and business knowledge (although a school can get lucky; i.e. Southern Utah). A school might be perfect for a conference, but a single personal snub can change the whole decision-making process. You might take issues with this, but clearly, the public rebuke that the Big Sky gave showed that the conference homework was not done up front by the SUs’. It is fine for Chapman and Miller to privately declare their hope for Big Sky admission, but their public declaration also clearly signaled to the Mid-Con the lack of enthusiasm towards it. If you were a Mid-Con president, would you be enthusiastic to vote in reluctant partners? If you were a Big Sky president, would you vote in the SU’s now, when you know five years down the road that, if new members are immediately needed, that they would accept your offer instantly? The SUs’ have already ineptly dealt with their two biggest conference hopes, the Big Sky and Mid-Con, yet no one seems to acknowledge that.

As far as Kooistra and any other anti-Div I views in SD, Miller and Oien helped create the issue, when they stated in the summer of 2002 that they wouldn’t pursue Div I unless they had a conference affiliation by August 2003. Miller and Oien should have just stated their Div I vision and why they were pursuing it without condition. They must have badly miscalculated the Big Sky’s intent and the difficulty of obtaining conference membership, and IMHO, richly deserve criticism for breaking their word. I wouldn’t be overly concerned about Kooistra, but I would be hoping and praying that Miller and Oien don’t make more problems for your institution.

As far the Mid-Con, a north/south arrangement with NDSU, SDSU, and UNC included presents even worse issues than an east/west alignment:

North South

NDSU-SDSU ORU-Cent

Oakland-IUPUI SUU(Denver)-UNC

Valpo-Chic St UMKC-West Ill

Oakland, IUPUI, Valpo, and Chicago St would all want at least Western Illinois in the North, and Western Ill would be highly disagreeable about being placed in a South division. Five votes against at a minimum. Swapping West Ill with SDSU might be possible, but then NDSU and West Ill would make horrible travel partners, and UMKC-SDSU wouldn’t be that much better. The North South alignment does not help or at best argues against bringing both NDSU and SDSU in as travel partners.

No one Dakota school could easily gain admission to the Horizon. Even under an ideal scenario, UND would not be admitted until at least a few years into the provisional period, and then only if a Minnesota school was also a member. There are some unique issues that might allow UND more leverage with the Horizon than other conferences. First, the geographical footprint of the Horizon Conference is like the Big Ten, focused on Great Lakes States but lacking a Minnesota presence . When UM-Duluth gets their new arena built, UMD would be attractive, but would also need a travel partner. Secondly, the face of the Horizon is likely to change in three-five years as private schools like Detroit Mercy, Loyola (Chicago), and Butler would be likely be lured to the Atlantic 10, if /when the Big East splits into football and basketball conferences. The Horizon would want to maintain a presence in Detroit by adding either Oakland or Wayne State (not yet Div I), and would also want to have a school in Indiana, so either Valpo or IUPUI from the MidCon could be added. Now, here’s where the scoffing comes: schools in this new Horizon conference would have an affinity or at least sympathy towards hockey and its money-making potential. (A conference like the MoValley would probably not look very favorably upon a school that emphasized hockey.) This is certainly not suggesting that the Horizon would sponsor hockey, but schools seek out other schools that have common athletic interests. Already, Wright State is building an on-campus rink, and schools such as UWGB, UW-Milw, Ill-Chicago (which used to have hockey), Wayne State (which has hockey), and Oakland (which could add hockey) are at least aware of the economic potential for hockey in their locales. From a business perspective, schools like Wright State or UW-GB could be inclined to campaign for conference membership for UND and UMD if they agreed to non-conference hockey games to help out fledgling programs. This scenario is several years from being anywhere close to reality, but it is one scenario opening a conference door available to UND and not to NDSU/SDSU.

[nodakvindy]

Another bonus UND could offer to a conference is in addition to an entrance fee, we could offer up (say for 10 years) any money for participating in the NCAA Hockey tournament. Since as a DII school, we aren't getting any of that money right now, it's not a real loss. This could end up being a nice pot of money if the Sioux make several deep tourney runs. After the probation period, UND would then get to keep all the hockey tourney money.

[aff]

Another bonus UND could offer to a conference is in addition to an entrance fee, we could offer up (say for 10 years) any money for participating in the NCAA Hockey tournament. Since as a DII school, we aren't getting any of that money right now, it's not a real loss. This could end up being a nice pot of money if the Sioux make several deep tourney runs. After the probation period, UND would then get to keep all the hockey tourney money.

NO CONFERENCE WILL EVER RECRUIT A D-II SCHOOL BEFORE THEY HAVE OFFICIALLY STATED THEIR INTENTION TO BE D-I, PERIOD.

[Hansel]

Already, Wright State is building an on-campus rink, and schools such as UWGB, UW-Milw, Ill-Chicago (which used to have hockey), Wayne State (which has hockey), and Oakland (which could add hockey) are at least aware of the economic potential for hockey in their locales.

Wayne St would probably inform the others that a school can lose a lot of money on Hockey as Wayne averaged less than 600 fans a game- less than NDSU's volleyball team

[nodakvindy]

NO CONFERENCE WILL EVER RECRUIT A D-II SCHOOL BEFORE THEY HAVE OFFICIALLY STATED THEIR INTENTION TO BE D-I, PERIOD.

Where did I imply otherwise? I'm not so dillustional to think DI leagues are clamoring for North Dakota, I simply pointed out a benefit UND could offer if it makes the decision to move up. Also, the Atlantic Sun is pursuing DII Kennesaw St. and I believe NDSU kindred spirit UC-Davis had offers prior to making its position official. Just because you NDSU/SDSU don't fit into anyone's plans, doesn't mean that nobody does.

Lighten up Francis!

[aff]

Where did I imply otherwise? I'm not so dillustional to think DI leagues are clamoring for North Dakota, I simply pointed out a benefit UND could offer if it makes the decision to move up. Also, the Atlantic Sun is pursuing DII Kennesaw St. and I believe NDSU kindred spirit UC-Davis had offers prior to making its position official. Just because you NDSU/SDSU don't fit into anyone's plans, doesn't mean that nobody does.

Lighten up Francis!

The implication comes from the previous post that you added on too, specificially in the line

But more importantly, I would expect a conference affiliation plan to be well along in the informal talking stages, rather than seeking a conference after declaring Div I intentions.

If it wasn't your intention to back this statement up then I apologize, I probably should have additionally put this quote in too.

Back to your post though nodakvinny, do really believe that UND will have so much money left after they begin comptetition in D-I that they will be able to give up 10 years of their precious hockey money? Getting that post season money from hockey would be one of the main reasons for UND to become D-I in the first place, but they would just give that money to a conference, and still have to pay for the increased sholies, travel, etc. with their increased budget?

I know I've said it before but UND needs to move now. A few years from now it will be too late for the school, especially if the bison are in an established conference(s). You guys say that UND is "Biding its time, with new facilities, before they go D-I", and you also say that "I'm not so dillustional to think DI leagues are clamoring for North Dakota", so which is it. Is UND waiting for a D-I conference invite, or are they not? What is UND "biding its time for". WHY IS UND WAITING? Whats going to change in the next 10 years for UND that would be helpful? The conferences are reshuffling NOW. The only thing I can think of is the administration feels its to early to ask the englesteads to fund this move. To me, UND not moving up with the bison indicates that the school will be unable to come up with funds for the foreseeable future. After all, what could make UND alums contribute more than UND keeping up with NDSU. All of the facilities the school has are great, but they are costing you big time in future, because with all of the money that has been put into the ralph, UND could have funded indowements for the D-I move that would have given you the travel budget, recruiting budget, and scholarships of a D-IA school, but instead they went into an over the top hockey arena (which is beautiful, don't get me wrong). I know this is going to piss all you off, but I think that hockey is ultimately going to be the downfall of your school. I know all of you love it, but can you really tell me that you wouldn't give up one of your NC's in hockey to see UND in the big dance? UND being in the big dance would give the school more publicity than all of the hockey national championships combined. Just think about it before you blast me.

[star2city]

NO CONFERENCE WILL EVER RECRUIT A D-II SCHOOL BEFORE THEY HAVE OFFICIALLY STATED THEIR INTENTION TO BE D-I, PERIOD.

So what exactly were Miller and Oien doing up until August 2003?

Here's the article on Kennesaw State and North Florida, , which Nodakvindy referred to and was posted on d2football by RD17. Neither school has officially declared DI intentions, but both are getting serious looks. Anyone want to bet that the Big Sky has not had at least feelers out for Central Washington and Western Washinton? They are struggling with scheduling in DII and may be forced up.

If you are a school south of the Ohio River and East of the Mississipppi, it is much easier to get conference affiliation even as a provisional school. A school in Tennessee would have no less than four lower level conferences to choose from: Atlantic Sun, Big South, Ohio Valley, and the Southern. A school moving up has bargaining power down there. In the Midwest and West, the conferences can pick and choose who they want and when they want them.

[bigmrg74]

Wayne St would probably inform the others that a school can lose a lot of money on Hockey as Wayne averaged less than 600 fans a game- less than NDSU's volleyball team

Guess I better stick up for a GLIAC team around here. Wayne State University, (the one in Detroit fellas!) has been looking into the possiablies of moving up to D1-AA. Their main problem with their hockey team, is that they don't have an on campus arena, and have played in several different arenas in the Metro Detroit area over the past couple of years. Its kinda hard to build up a fan base if they don't know where you'll be playing at next year. They are doing some fundraising right now I believe to get the on campus arena, and to improve other facilities with the eye towards going D1-AA, which would help them get a lot of the athletic talent thats from the Detroit Area.

Also, another team that the Horizon or other D1-AA leagues might look at as well would be Eastern Michigan, which, if the NCAA would get tough on those attendence rule requirements for D1-A football, would be forced down a level. They're nowhere close to the attendence they need, and well, considering that the next town over, there's a little stadium that sits 130,000 plus easy. They only way they could probably get the numbers they need would be to schedule all their home games when Michigan is away, and show the Michigan game on the big screen during their game. And I don't think the MAC is going to been over backwards just for EMU.

[star2city]

Wayne St would probably inform the others that a school can lose a lot of money on Hockey as Wayne averaged less than 600 fans a game- less than NDSU's volleyball team

Somebison:

Thanks for helping to make my point. Looking at the Wayne State schedule, all the Michigan CCHA teams are totally sandbagging them. Couple that with the fact that Wayne State does not have their own home arena and has crappy game starting times, their program lacks credibility. If they received help from an influential ally or two, their status would rise at least among their own alumni. Of course, all of this is somewhat mute because Wayne State is not even Division I yet.

[Corella]

My take on the issue,

The Mid-Con not being a football conference hurts NDSU and SDSU's chances of gettting in there while being provisional teams, which ends 08-09 as someone said. Why, the Mid-Con's sport is obviously basketball, even though they as a conference aren't too good at as is. It's beyond me why any conference that doesn't have football attached to its name would want provisional teams. According to the RPI, which the NCAA selection committee says they pay no attention to but every year they seem to seed accord to what the RPI says, a D1 team is better off playing non-D1 teams then playing a provisional team. It would absolutely murder their conference power rankings, thus killing the conference's representative(s) in the Big Dance when seeding comes around. A 14 seed would be about the high that could be possible for a team going into the Big Dance from a conference with 2 provisional teams. No conference is going to do this to themselves, adding provisional teams would only hurt the conference. If the Mid-Con offerred football, I could certainly see them adding a team like NDSU and forcing the other sports the league offers to take it in the shorts for a few years for the betterment of football, but them not offering football just makes the scenario unlikely. Conference's names and reputations would take a big hit, and I can't see officials taking a chance. Not a dig at NDSU and SDSU, just the facts that they and hopefully UND in the near future are faced with.

[star2city]

What is UND "biding its time for". WHY IS UND WAITING? Whats going to change in the next 10 years for UND that would be helpful? The conferences are reshuffling NOW.

aff:

Midwestern conferences (Horizon, MOValley, MidCon, MAC (except Marhall and UCF in football) and the Big Ten) have been a sea of calm in this current episode of shuffling. If/when the Big East implodes later this decade, that's when the Horizon and MidCon will see changes.

I know this is going to piss all you off, but I think that hockey is ultimately going to be the downfall of your school.  I know all of you love it, but can you really tell me that you wouldn't give up one of your NC's in hockey to see UND in the big dance?  UND being in the big dance would give the school more publicity than all of the hockey national championships combined.  Just think about it before you blast me.

Ask an average Minnesota fan or Boston College fan if they would give up a national hockey championship for an appearance in the big dance, and they would laugh in your face. Why do SDSU and NDSU fans always trivialize UND's seven Division I championships when other Div I schools recognize UND as the gold standard in the sport. How is national excellence and prominence in anything going to be a downfall?

Your coments point out another weakness in the whole move by SDSU to Div I in that your goal is to be the next Gonzaga. There are 250 other low level DI chools that have that same dream. Well, guess what. Most have failed miserably.

[aff]

It would absolutely murder their conference power rankings, thus killing the conference's representative(s) in the Big Dance when seeding comes around

I don't pretend to know a lot about how the RPI works, so the following could be interpreted as a question more than a statement.

If I remember correctly SDSU and NDSU won't count for or aqainst a schools RPI ranking next season. After that season they will count in the RPI.

Here's what I"ve found from the NCAA about RPI rankings determination:

Team Winning % 25 %

Opponent's

Winning % 50 %

Opponent's

Opponent's

Winning % 25 %

So would SDSU really hurt a conference's RPI rankings by playing the pretty strong schedule it already will have set up for two seasons from now? Next season they already have two tournament teams on the schedule, plus several other mid-major powers. If 75% of the RPI is based on how these opponets play, then wouldn't SDSU already be at least as good as other mid-con teams in terms of RPI?

Midwestern conferences (Horizon, MOValley, MidCon, MAC (except Marhall and UCF in football) and the Big Ten) have been a sea of calm in this current episode of shuffling. If/when the Big East implodes later this decade, that's when the Horizon and MidCon will see changes.

I'm not going to argue this because the truth is nobody really knows what is going to happen. It may happen in your time line, or it may happen quicker, only time will tell.

Your coments point out another weakness in the whole move by SDSU to Div I in that your goal is to be the next Gonzaga. There are 250 other low level DI chools that have that same dream. Well, guess what. Most have failed miserably.

Wrong. This is a favorite argument of many people, but the truth is that SDSU is making the move for another reason, a non-athletic one. The admin. sees that there is a drop in future students in south and north dakota, and that in the near future there is going to be a fight to get those students to attend SDSU over UND, Lincoln, NDSU, USD, all of the regional institutions. SDSU is hoping that by upping the athletic program they will be able to capture the attention of students across the region, which will make them attend SDSU, and keep the enrollment up despite the falling student population in the state. SDSU would probably be happy with a tournament appearance every 5-10 years, and being in the running for one most years. My point is that SDSU is making this move to try and gain regional attention for itself, so that more out of state kids from nebraska, Iowa, Minnesota, etc. will attend the school.

Why do SDSU and NDSU fans always trivialize UND's seven Division I championships when other Div I schools recognize UND as the gold standard in the sport.

I wasn't trivializing the national championships, I was pointing out that on a national level one appearance in the big dance would get far more attention than winning a hockey national championship. UND has every reason to be proud of those championships, but I think that with the money that has went into facilities and other costs for the sport, UND could be doing bigger things. Just my opinion.

[Corella]

I don't pretend to know a lot about how the RPI works, so the following could be interpreted as a question more than a statement.

If I remember correctly SDSU and NDSU won't count for or aqainst a schools RPI ranking next season. After that season they will count in the RPI.

Here's what I"ve found from the NCAA about RPI rankings determination:

Team Winning % 25 %

Opponent's

Winning % 50 %

Opponent's

Opponent's

Winning % 25 %

So would SDSU really hurt a conference's RPI rankings by playing the pretty strong schedule it already will have set up for two seasons from now? Next season they already have two tournament teams on the schedule, plus several other mid-major powers. If 75% of the RPI is based on how these opponets play, then wouldn't SDSU already be at least as good as other mid-con teams in terms of RPI?

Here is, in a nutshell, what SDSU and NDSU's RPI would do to the Mid-Con. Being provisional teams, having each team in the conference play them 1 and in most cases 2 times it would be like shortening each teams regular season schedule from 28 to 26-24 games. That is the very effect it would have to Mid-Con teams. Why would the conference risk, in the NCAA's eyes, cutting each team in the league's schedule by at the least 2 games, and in some cases 4 games by bringing in 2 teams to an established conference when they are in NCAA and RPI pergatory? From the conferrence's perspective, being a basketball 1st conference (as opposed to the Big Sky which is football 1st) take huge step backwards for a conference which is no better then the low half of the middle of the pack (20-23) nationally anyway, not to mention severely altering its geographical landscape? It doesn't make much sense from the Mid-Con's end of it.

[aff]

That is the very effect it would have to Mid-Con teams. Why would the conference risk, in the NCAA's eyes, cutting each team in the league's schedule by at the least 2 games, and in some cases 4 games by bringing in 2 teams to an established conference when they are in NCAA and RPI pergatory

I was under the impression that after the 04-05 season SDSU and NDSU would count for RPI just like any other school. I have read comments from Coach Nagy that SDSU would be eligible for the NIT the season after this (doubtful that they would be invited though). I think that the only punishment a school has after the first year is that it can't go to the NCAA's. After next season they should count just like any other D-I basketball school for the RPI.

[Corella]

I was under the impression that after the 04-05 season SDSU and NDSU would count for RPI just like any other school. I have read comments from Coach Nagy that SDSU would be eligible for the NIT the season after this (doubtful that they would be invited though). I think that the only punishment a school has after the first year is that it can't go to the NCAA's. After next season they should count just like any other D-I basketball school for the RPI.

Provisional teams are not accessed an RPI. For evidence just consult www.collegerpi.com where you will see no provisional teams listed (no Northern Colorado no UC Davis, no Utah Valley), or if you have a past issue of Blue Ribbon (which is bar none the greatest preview magazine, or book in this case, of any sport at any level) simply look at one of the teams were provisional and now aren't. In their past 5 years RPI that is listed for every team, teams that were provisional are given an NA (not applicable), they are not ranked at all in the 300 whatever teams. The one new wrinkle here is that teams will be ranked by the PRI if they play what is considered a full D1 schedule, which is defined by playing all but 4 games against D1 competition, but that is something that the SU's will not be able to accomplish for 3-4 years IMO, because why would another D1 school schedule a game that has very good potential to, in the NCAA's eyes, go towards absolutely nothing because the team cannot fill a full D1 schedule? This makes the likelyhood of finding a conference in 2-3 years very unlikely.