Ryan Bakken on the rivalry

[PCM]

Anyone who thinks the NDSU-UND football game must continue no matter what should read Sunday's Ryan Bakken column in the Grand Forks Herald.

[lawkota]

True, it was NDSU that made the decision to un-level (admittedly, not a word) the playing field. They did what they thought best although it's a bit over the top for Bakken to suggest that they should have been thinking of the rivalry first when making their decision. UND should also do what's best for it. In 4-5 years, the competitiveness of the rivalry may be such that it makes so sense for either team to play the game anymore. But that will not be the case in the short term. Play the game for two more years, then reassess. Alot can happen in two years, the most dramatic being UND moving to DI also. But, IMO, there is no good reason for this rivalry to end this year.

[Bisonfan1234]

Next year and the year after the Bison won't have the kind of advantage over the Sue that Montana had over the Bison.

So, with that fact being said, there is nothing that any Sue fan, coach, or other person can say in reguards to signing the contract for 2 more years.

Just sign it!! It's only 2 more years.

After that, THEN your arguments of a not fair playing field will start to make sense. But not until after that.

[PCM]

Next year and the year after the Bison won't have the kind of advantage over the Sue that Montana had over the Bison.

Ah, but I'm already hearing NDSU crow about its recruiting successes as a result of its decision to go D-IAA. If the announced move is paying off for the Bison in the form of better recruits, then the playing field is no longer level.

NDSU can't have it both ways. They can pat themselves on the back for the brilliant decision to go D-IAA and boast about the dividends it's already paying, then pretend both schools are on an equal footing for the next two years.

Which is it? Is NDSU getting better recruits now or is it getting the same level of recruits as a D-II school? And what about next year and the year after that? Is NDSU going to brag about its recruiting successes while insisting that there is no real difference between NDSU and UND?

Only a sucker would believe that, and I refuse to be played for a sucker.

[PCM]

True, it was NDSU that made the decision to un-level (admittedly, not a word) the playing field.  They did what they thought best although it's a bit over the top for Bakken to suggest that they should have been thinking of the rivalry first when making their decision.

After re-reading Bakken's column, I don't think that's his point. His point is that it's the heighth of hypocrisy for NDSU to cast UND as the villain. It was NDSU, not UND, that decided to jeopardize the rivalry by unilaterally moving to D-IAA.

Play the game for two more years, then reassess. Alot can happen in two years, the most dramatic being UND moving to DI also. But, IMO, there is no good reason for this rivalry to end this year.

I sincerely believe that if UND is pressured into making an emotional decision to continue the annual battle for the Nickel Trophy, a year or two years from now, Sioux alumni and fans and UND administrators will be kicking themselves for ever being suckered into the deal.

Edited October 19, 2003 by PCM

[Bisonfan1234]

If NDSU had won, i believe that the contract would have been already signed by today. It's simply that UND couldn't live with themselves if they never got another shot at the nickle. And now that they won this possible last game it just gives them another excuse not to sign.

Also, i don't know how you can talk about unlevel playing fields when you schedule Crookston and Newbury.

[U2Bad1]

If NDSU had won, i believe that the contract would have been already signed by today. It's simply that UND couldn't live with themselves if they never got another shot at the nickle. And now that they won this possible last game it just gives them another excuse not to sign.

Also, i don't know how you can talk about unlevel playing fields when you schedule Crookston and Newbury.

*cough* moorhead st *cough*

[lawkota]

I sincerely believe that if UND is pressured into making an emotional decision to continue the annual battle for the Nickel Trophy, a year or two years from now, Sioux alumni and fans and UND administrators will be kicking themselves for ever being suckered into the deal.

Only if they lose the games. But if the Nickel is that important then, take off the table. Simply state UND will continue the series but as long the two schools are in different classifications, the Nickel is not up for grabs.

[bisonguy]

*cough* moorhead st *cough*

*cough* 1996 and 1998 Potato Bowls *cough*

Was Moorhead State even D2 back then?

[Bisonfan1234]

*cough* moorhead st *cough*

The question isn't whether we are willing to play teams we know are at a disadvantage. As you just proved, it's quite alright with us.

The question is that why is UND trying to say they refuse to play a team that has an advantage over them when they play teams that they have an advantage over. As if they believed that you should never play a team you have an advantage over.

[U2Bad1]

*cough* 1996 and 1998 Potato Bowls *cough*

Was Moorhead State even D2 back then?

I'm not the one complaining about other teams playing weaker opponents.

[CoteauRinkRat]

True, it was NDSU that made the decision to un-level (admittedly, not a word) the playing field.  They did what they thought best although it's a bit over the top for Bakken to suggest that they should have been thinking of the rivalry first when making their decision.  UND should also do what's best for it.  In 4-5 years, the competitiveness of the rivalry may be such that it makes so sense for either team to play the game anymore.  But that will not be the case in the short term.  Play the game for two more years, then reassess.  Alot can happen in two years, the most dramatic being UND moving to DI also.  But, IMO, there is no good reason for this rivalry to end this year.

lawkota

You will probably be saying keep the rivalry going in three or four years, even when NDSU is winning. You'll keep saying that the rivalry means too much to the state to end it.

Last time I checked UND are not the ones moving, but in your opinion, they are not moving and so they should be the ones to blame.

I agree that they should continue playing the game, but the nickel is no longer up for grabs. The nickel is put in some public for display, until the teams play each other at the same level.

Would that make anyone at NDSU happy? We would keep playing the game. No one would "own" the nickel, but the nickel would no longer be up for grabs.

[PCM]

Only if they lose the games. 

I don't think it's only a matter of whether the Sioux lose, but how they might lose. All it would take is one or two impact D-IAA-caliber recruits to suddenly and decisively tip the advantage in NDSU's favor. If UND plays NDSU the next two years and gets trampled, how many Sioux fans and alumni are going to say, "A two-year contract with NDSU? Yeah, that was a good idea!"

[BisonMav]

The two schools should just end the rivalry.

As a Bison fan, I would not feel great satisfaction about a I-AA NDSU defeating a DII team, whoever that may be. I would much rather watch a Georgia Southern, UC-Davis or Montana.

[lawkota]

You will probably be saying keep the rivalry going in three or four years, even when NDSU is winning.  You'll keep saying that the rivalry means too much to the state to end it. 

Last time I checked UND are not the ones moving, but in your opinion, they are not moving and so they should be the ones to blame.

I would rather see how things play out before I think about what I will probably be saying. I'm upset that UND is considering not renewing the series, but I'm beginning to understand the reasons and therefore am not placing blame. I just want 2 more years. You said yourself you want the series to continue that long, how are we different?

I don't think it's only a matter of whether the Sioux lose, but how they might lose. All it would take is one or two impact D-IAA-caliber recruits to suddenly and decisively tip the advantage in NDSU's favor. If UND plays NDSU the next two years and gets trampled, how many Sioux fans and alumni are going to say, "A two-year contract with NDSU? Yeah, that was a good idea!"

PCM, yes, that might happen. It may turn out playing the series two more years will result in two embarrassing Sioux defeats. But you don't know that. I have confidence that UND will be competitive with the Bison short term. Dale Lennon wants the series to continue so he must believe the same thing. I agree with you on the hypocrisy angle in Bakken's column BTW; it is wrong for NDSU to paint UND as the bad guy in this debate.

[Tuk]

Again, it is both sides that have created this situation. No one wants to be the one to belame for the end of the rivalry, and as such I think they should mutually agree to put the rivalry on hold until a compromise can be worked out or a final bipartisan decision can be released stating the rivalry is ended.

What this boils down into is politics and credibility. UND doesn't want to sign for their reasons, but Roger continues to withhold a decison of YES/NO for next year. NDSU moved up, and as such theoretically gives them an advantage in about 3 to 4 years.

I think if UND's decision was known earlier a compromise or a more calmer dialogue could have developed on how to address this problem. Now however, the AD's and whole universities for that matter are pointing the finger at each other. Thus, this situation has rolled into a big quagmire of crap.

Hopefully this can be resolved somehow.

[UND Fan]

I am confused by the many comments stating that SU won't have an advantage for 3-4 years. It is true that it will take a few years before all 63 available scholarships are fully funded but the difference starts next year.

There is no question that SU had a very good recruiting year last year. They were successful (smartly) by offering a partial scholarship to many of their recruits and telling them that they will likely get a free ride within a year or two. When UND go head-to-head recruiting a prospect, it is seldom that a full ride is offered. SU got some recruits that UND wanted simply with the "carrot" of more money down the line. With only 36 scholarships available, UND can not morally make that implication.

As most readers of this know, SU expanded their recruiting base substantially this last year, getting some very talented kids out of Illinois (and elsewhere). Those kids will be playing next year and the year after. This provides a major advantage for the Bison.

I, personally, agree with BisonMav and think the series should end until both schools are back in the same division. The two universities will make this decision but I think that it is important to note that the advantage in SU's favor will begin next year, not in 3-4 years.

[Bisonfan1234]

I am confused by the many comments stating that SU won't have an advantage for 3-4 years. It is true that it will take a few years before all 63 available scholarships are fully funded but the difference starts next year.

There is no question that SU had a very good recruiting year last year. They were successful (smartly) by offering a partial scholarship to many of their recruits and telling them that they will likely get a free ride within a year or two. When UND go head-to-head recruiting a prospect, it is seldom that a full ride is offered. SU got some recruits that UND wanted simply with the "carrot" of more money down the line. With only 36 scholarships available, UND can not morally make that implication.

As most readers of this know, SU expanded their recruiting base substantially this last year, getting some very talented kids out of Illinois (and elsewhere). Those kids will be playing next year and the year after. This provides a major advantage for the Bison.

I, personally, agree with BisonMav and think the series should end until both schools are back in the same division. The two universities will make this decision but I think that it is important to note that the advantage in SU's favor will begin next year, not in 3-4 years.

You're in no position to say that and you're basically just talking out of your ass in the hope that the rivalry is discontinued.

Trust me, 2 years from now, it's doubtful that more than a couple redshirt soph. will have a huge impact.

[PCM]

Again, it is both sides that have created this situation.

Absolutely, totally, 100 percent false. I know it's the Bison spin, but that's all it is -- spin.

[BisonMav]

PCM Posted on Oct 20 2003, 07:41 AM

  Absolutely, totally, 100 percent false. I know it's the Bison spin, but that's all it is -- spin

If the move to I-AA is the reason the rivalry is ending, I am fine with that. I would much rather see a NDSU Divison I program than continue the rivalry. That's my spin.

[airmail]

Again, it is both sides that have created this situation.

[UND Fan]

Bisonfan1234 -- This is the one and only time I am going to respond to anything you say on this board and I hope other UND fans follow my lead.

While I respect your opinion and your right to post on this board, I wish you would take some lessons in class from BisonMav and some of the other SU fans who visit here often.

Per the gobison.com website, you have two freshmen starters and seven others as the No. 1 backups to other starters - so freshman (whether true or red-shirted) can be significant contributors to your program. If you are bringing in better quality recruits now (which everyone, including your coaches and media attest), how can you not have better talent next year and the year after, etc. than you have now?

I respectfully ask that you either forget coming to this site (my preference) or become more mature with your comments. I do not feel that I or anyone else in here deserve comments like "you are talking out of your ass".

[PCM]

If the move to I-AA is the reason the rivalry is ending, I am fine with that. I would much rather see a NDSU Divison I program than continue the rivalry. That's my spin.

That's not spin, it's honesty, and I can appreciate that.

[Tuk]

Absolutely, totally, 100 percent false. I know it's the Bison spin, but that's all it is -- spin.

bull$%!#. NDSU has created this "situation", and they did it on their own. There's no spin that you can put on it to make it look otherwise.

NDSU IS TO BLAME FOR THE END OF THE RIVALRY!

I think I've seen my last Sioux-Bison game, and it was a good one. Actually, I'm fine with that.

So...apparently you guys all think I am some NDSU spinster who is trying to blame UND for the end of the rivalry? Well, I am sorry to say that this is something I truly believe. I am not placing belame on UND for starting the ball rolling, BUT I do believe that UND was not outright and upfront on its position concerning the implications of the move upon the rivalry. Roger Thomas still does not draw the line in the sand and answer the question everyone wants answered. Does that mean NDSU thought of the consequences of their decision? No, and such makes the CURRENT situation a product of both institutions and their inability to compromise or decide on a solution.

I think it is unfair to place the whole of the blame upon NDSU. To say it is all NDSU's fault is a product of the spin UND has placed upon the situation, and visa versa with regards to NDSU supporters. I am not saying its all UND's fault because Roger won't sign the contract, but the hesitation of the current decison to continue and the lack of immediate refusal to play the rivalry due to NDSU's DIAA move I believe contributes to the current situation.

Only when both sides come together and talk this through to agreement will this be resolved. I am afraid this has turned into a political situation, and just like Dems vs. GOP'ers both sides are blaming each other for the problems instead of solving it, and as such are both responsible for nothing getting resolved. Hopefully Roger and Gene put their mutually stubborn heads together and come to a bilateral decision on the future of the rivalry.

If not, then Roger needs to say, "No, we choose not to play anymore for these reasons...." and allow both sides to move onward (although for him this is a 'rock and a hard place' situation). I hope this does not end the rivalry, but I think this needs to be resolved quickly. I am tired of the finger pointing.

(And for you D-IAA advocates from SU, after some conversations this weekend with some of your "more generous Bison supporters", let me say that they think its a BIG mistake.)

I am not sure who you talked to Airmail, but everyone I know is for it. I guess only time and the almighty dollar will tell where this ends up.

[PCM]

So...apparently you guys all think I am some NDSU spinster who is trying to blame UND for the end of the rivalry?

You are an NDSU "spinster," but I never said that you were trying to blame UND for ending the rivalry. Saying that NDSU is no more to blame than UND is pure spin because it's simply not true.

NDSU, all by itself, created the situation that jeopardized the rivalry. NDSU, all by itself, created the unequal situation under which it now expects UND to play. NDSU screwed it up, not UND.

And that's the truth.