jk

Your point is well-taken. Parise was part of a great class of forwards, and he has been (or soon will be) outscored over his career by some of them. Parise 116 Vanek 113 ---------------- Sertich 132 Sterling 129 Gauthier 116 and even ... Hirsch 93 The curious thing to me about comparing Toews and Kessel is that we do not know if they are even in the same league. We have a pretty good idea what Kessel is about: he dominated the US development program as none have, he showed flashes at the WJC that reveal him to be the most dynamic American forward under age 20, and he's the early choice for the top pick overall in the next NHL draft. Toews, on the other hand, is a relative unknown. We know that a few years ago he was considered among the top handful of Canadian forwards his age, and that he was the top pick in the WHL draft then. Since then, he's toiled in relative obscurity in Faribault, MN. (I know Shattuck is scouted, but it's nothing like the US program and the US WJC team for exposure.) The big question is, when he reappears, in a big-time hockey sense, this Fall in Grand Forks: Is he still one of the elite hockey players his age in North America? If so, then this might end up being a worthy discussion.

This just isn't fair right now, but I'd have to guess Kessel. He's not going to be on anything other than MN's first line, and first PP unit. On the big frozen ocean, he'll be flying around many a defenseman. Toews won't be UND's first-line center, as Zajac owns that spot. I'm not sure how PP time will work out. Plus Kessel's six months older. I hope this doesn't become a regular comparison. Let's just enjoy watching Toews come of age as a hockey player.

People will be looking for Oshie and Kozek to justify their draft positions, which is unfair for true freshmen just starting their college careers. However, the freshmen forwards will be under no real pressure, as some returning stars will be counted on to lead the way, in terms of scoring, early in the season. It's a different story for the freshmen defensemen. Lee, Chorney, Finley and Jones will be relied upon to keep the pressure off the goaltenders. That's a huge request to make of freshmen defensemen, but that's the way it is. edit: NDFAN, you beat me to it.

In thinking about Oshie's draft position, I think the single moment that moved him up into the first round came late in regulation in the State Class A Championship game. As glorious as the OT face-off win and pass were, it was a simple open-ice shoulder check that probably opened eyes. With neither player seeming to have much momentum, Oshie delivered a clean hit, and the opponent crumpled to the ice. It was sufficiently violent that a penalty was called (two minutes for checking hard), and it served as Exhibit A to scouts that he plays big, regardless of his listed size. Smallish guys with good hands and vision are a dime-a-dozen, but a player needs the strength and attitude to play with some grit to make it professionally.

http://www.stlblues.com/news/0405/050730I.html From the Blues website: --------------------------- When informed that the Blues took some heat on Canadian television for their first-round pick center T.J. Oshie from Warroad (Minn.) High School, Kekalainen thought there was a short in his cell phone connection. "Really," he said. "I can

A little buzz from the Tampa paper: MORE ROOKIE SIGNINGS? With the prospect of still having to sign a majority of Tampa Bay's free agents, GM Jay Feaster is looking to add more prospects to the system. That means some of the college players from the 2003 draft picks might be on Feaster's radar. Expect negotiations with defenseman Matt Smaby, Tampa Bay's second second-round pick in the 2003 draft who is set to enter his junior season at North Dakota. Feaster also might look at enticing Brady Greco and Jay Rosehill to begin their pro careers. ----------------------- http://sports.tbo.com/sports/MGBGE7D5UBE.html

tnt, Thanks for the reality check. First, I would rather have the draft go well for UND's prospects than poorly, so in that regard I'm of course thrilled with Saturday's results. It looks like there are some really nice players coming in. That said, you are absolutely right that production on the ice is what matters, and things like draft position don't matter when you're scrapping in the corner with a 23-year old. Most of these kids are true freshmen, and they are alternately going to have their hands full and show flashes of brilliance. The new-REA era is a new world for UND, as the program is adjusting from assembling teams of slightly older, second-tier, undrafted players (UND's 1997 title team had zero NHL draftees) to building teams of high NHL draft picks, who often start at age 18, or even 17, and sign professional contracts after two or three years. This is Michigan's strategy, and it's instructive to note that Michigan's title drought is now at seven years. I'm definitely in favor of pursuing the best players, and it's exciting to think of the possibilities for UND over the next few years, but it's not certain that success follows immediately after a promising group such as this one arrives. I hope Sioux fans can be patient as these kids develop over the next few years.

Why St. Louis took Oshie where they did, from the Edmonton paper: The Oilers had hoped to deal with the New York Islanders to move up to the 15th overall pick, so they could take Toronto Marlies centre Ryan O'Marra. After that failed to materialize, they bided their time, feeling they would land Warroad, Minn., centre T. J. Oshie, another speedster, with the 25th pick. But the Blues took Oshie with the 24th pick.

What a disappointment. No Sioux taken in the third round. I wish the recruiting was a little better.

Berenson happens to be right, because of course everyone could use another year of seasoning. But he seems to have forgotten that college hockey is just another step on the developmental ladder for the blue-chip players Michigan recruits. I agree, sdd, he should just shut up about it and wish his guys well.

Erik Fabian is very clever. Signed, Judd Stevens

I'm expecting Stafford, Smaby and Zajac to all have good years this year, and then begin their professional careers in the Fall of 2006 (assuming they don't leave yet this Summer). Stafford and Smaby both have NHL size, and first and second round draft choices who continue to progress don't often play four years of college hockey. I think the Devils are really high on Zajac and I think they'll bring him in next year, especially if he has the kind of year I think he might have. All conjecture on my part, and of course I'd love to be wrong. One wildcard is that we don't know yet what the normal course of business will be for the NHL under the new CBA. I would think UND might recruit a few kids that will be in the "arrival date TBD" category; they'll be 2006 recruits if the roster opens up, or 2007 if there is no room.

UND fans desperate for information have a few things to follow in the next few weeks: July 30 -- NHL draft July 30 - August 5 -- Canada's National Under-18 Summer Development Camp (Kitchener, ON), which will be attended by Jon Toews. August 5-14 -- US National Junior Evaluation Camp (Lake Placid, NY). Competing will be Oshie, Lee, Chorney and Jones. August 9-14 -- Under-18 Junior World Cup, in Czechoslovakia (I know there isn't such a place, but the tournament is held in two cities, one in the Czech Republic and one in Slovakia). Hopefully Toews will be there, and it's possible there will be future Sioux on the US team, although they haven't committed yet. ?? -- Dryland training starts. ?? -- Practice officially starts. October 2 -- Exhibition with Manitoba.

The first thing I'd teach Finley is to not take advice from message board coaches. But your point is well taken.

It's nice to add another prototypical UND defenseman to the program. I'll take this as confirmation that Matt Greene is on his way to bigger things, although that may not be official for a while. As to that gigantic list of freshmen, I'm a homer so of course I see good things this season. But I wouldn't blame an objective person if they looked at the list and predicted a rebuilding year. That's an awful lot of freshmen defensemen to be working into the WCHA.

A letter to the editor in the GF Herald: http://www.grandforks.com/mld/grandforks/n...al/12147092.htm "After we had everything loaded in the van, Dave made sure he was the first to sign a young Sioux fan's cast. What a class act. I hope Grand Forks and UND realizes what a great guy they have running the hockey program. He's a coach that every parent would want their kids to play for."

Should be drafted: Lee, Chorney, Jones, Oshie, Vandevelde Might be drafted: Watkins, Kozek ** Probably won't be drafted (some are too old): Toews (too young), Walski, Alexander, Miller, Duncan, Martens ** With the draft chopped to seven rounds from nine, some smaller guys from the lower (non-Major Junior) leagues in Canada might get squeezed out.

A few things about Greene's future: In some ways, the natural time for Greene to leave would have been after 2004. He was physically ready and apparently well-liked by Edmonton. I think the lockout may have kept him in college last year, and UND was rewarded as his captaincy and presence played a huge role in the team's advancement to Columbus. I expect that he will eventually move on this Summer to join the Edmonton organization, but it will take a while. Edmonton has quite a lot to do (buying out veterans, signing its own free agents, shopping for new free agents, the draft) before it thinks about Matt Greene. The AHL is a likely destination for a defenseman straight from college (Hale's and Martin's recent experience noted, but I consider them exceptions), and the AHL will have some openings, with recent young NHLers returning to the NHL after spending last year in the AHL. So my prediction is that Edmonton eventually gets around to Greene and other similarly situated prospects in August. He signs then, and competes for a big-league job. Maybe he wins it, or maybe he goes to the AHL to learn the position professionally. I'll wish him well and thank him for his huge contribution if that's how it plays out. p.s. I wouldn't mind being wrong.

Five-hole, I guess the only Brady analogy would be that MN is well established as Marcia, which would make UND Greg. So pretty much equals, except Greg was bigger, stronger and not a girl.

I don't think McMahon projects as a first-line center at higher levels of hockey, and I also wouldn't characterize him as an exceptional puck mover. I do, however, think he has a chance to have a professional career as a very solid two-way forward. Regular fans will grow to appreciate his game.

Sorry, couldn't resist. Your skate point is interesting. We used to play foosball "clean goals only," so anything cheap didn't count. The funny thing about hockey is that only about 50% of the goals are "clean." The rest seem to be garbage bounces and deflections (especially goals by Denver against UND in important games). My point is that while a goal off a skate is definitely garbage, so are plenty of other hockey goals. Which is worse, a soccer goal or one that falls in off Paul Stastny's butt? So maybe you're not an idiot, except for the Gopher fan thing (just kidding; thanks for posting).

I didn't see mention of it anywhere, but the Herald noted Walski's Sioux commitment on Friday: -------------- Walski to join Sioux Aaron Walski will join UND this fall as a walk-on. He'll be the third goalie behind junior Jordan Parise and sophomore Philippe Lamoureux. Walski made a state tournament-record 73 saves for Fargo North in 2001 when the Spartans lost 2-1 in five overtimes to Grand Forks Red River in the state high school championship game. He's played in the United States Hockey League and the North American Hockey League since graduating from high school.

PCM, I agree. There's no comparison in the depth of affection for the schools by the hockey-playing kids. You can probably take 80% of the Canadian kids we're talking about and scratch them off the list because of major junior aspirations or just because they wouldn't consider the US college route. But having the first crack at the remaining 20% is an advantage no one else has. Does it compare to having the first shot at 90% of Minnesota kids, as the Gophers do? Maybe not, but it's hard to measure. Without checking, I assume the state of MN has a bigger population that the prairie provinces combined, but then again nearly every athletically-inclined boy in Canada takes up hockey, while many athletic MN kids do not. Again, hard to measure. Maybe the best way would be to count national titles (just kidding).

Just getting back to the board and I had a thought on this one. MN obviously has a ton of advantages in running its program, but one big one that no other school has is being the beloved flagship in the middle of the country's biggest hockey player factory. The vast majority of hockey-playing kids in the state of MN grow up dreaming of wearing the M. That's just the way it is. It's why Duluth kids like Spehar (despite how he ultimately faded) and Fairchild (rumored to be a future Gopher) choose to be Gophers rather than Bulldogs. It's hard to imagine any of the other schools in the state ever overtaking MN for that position. While this is obviously a big plus for MN, UND arguably has nearly an equal geopraphic advantage: a location just a few hours from Winnipeg and the closest school to the vast Manitoba and Sasketchewan prairies. The list of important players from these areas is long, and it appears that this significant "pipeline" has been reopened, or at least widened, in recent years. Geographically, the only competitors would seem to be UMD and Bemidji, but other factors such as facilities and reputation hamper their ability to challenge UND for this prime position. To summarize, when I think of MN's prime position in the heart of the Minnesota hockey factory, I have to remember UND's prime position near the Canadian prairie hockey factory.

sprig, I understand where you're coming from and don't disagree that we can't compare their international performance. I also think, as some have said, that they all have to go camping and see who performs there. Skate or sit, sort of. I just commented on Cardinal because he has demonstrated the ability to be reasonably impartial in his posts. I personally don't mind polite visitors to this board.