jk

sprig, I understand where you're coming from and don't disagree that we can't compare their international performance. I also think, as some have said, that they all have to go camping and see who performs there. Skate or sit, sort of. I just commented on Cardinal because he has demonstrated the ability to be reasonably impartial in his posts. I personally don't mind polite visitors to this board.

Cardinal's pretty reasonable. I understand his point about Oshie and Mueller. Mueller has been hyped for years now, and I think is considered to be very close to Toews as a prospect - Top 10 NHL draft pick type of prospect. Nobody knows what kind of player any of those three will become, as there's plenty of developing yet to do for all of them. Setting aside comparisons with other players, Oshie's invitation does seem to validate his spot on the Sioux roster in 2005, rather than waiting for 2006. Hakstol said Oshie's arrival was not tied to Murray's departure, and this would seem to fit in that scenario.

At the conclusion of the Selection Camp in Kitchener, twenty-two of the 40 players will be selected to Canada

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/article.php?s...hreaded&order=0 Hockey's Future has a long story about Greene and Paukovich, both of whom are Edmonton prospects. There are a few misses (mainly the recollections of Greene's actions after Bina was hurt; some recall Greene being out of control, when in fact he played surprisingly conservatively), but it's mostly a good read.

I agree that the doc should be disbarred. Then he can scrap the law career and concentrate on medicine.

This is the view today, looking back at their careers. I think people forget how much potential that class seemingly had four years ago, when we were looking forward to their careers. Bochenski, Fournier and Massen were gigantic scorers in the USHL, Canady and Connelly were point-per-game guys, and McMahon's name was listed second on Heisenberg's BCHL list. (I know Hesienberg doesn't really "rank" players, but when you see his name listed near the top you can't help but generate expectations.) Faul was known to have a wicked one-timer. The current class also carries (or is burdened by) robust expectations, and perhaps the best argument for them having better potential is that they are younger, with more development ahead of them. I'm excited for the upcoming season; it'll be fun to see some new players, getting to know them not by name or number but by skating style and posture. But you have to remember that this is the time of the year when players have no faults. In our minds, the returners have all taken a step forward, and the new guys are at least as advertised. Kozek's a sniper, Watkins is a burner, Duncan's the next Hoogie, Toews is one of the best '88s in all of North America, Martens has some of the best hands in the BCHL, Miller was Green Bay's best natural goal scorer, and Oshie is the real deal. When September rolls around, the dreams fade, blemishes appear before us, and everyone needs to get to work. As with every year, some guys I expect to shine will disappoint, and some guys will emerge from the shadows to contribute.

Sprig, I think you're right about Espo's acceleration timetable. I heard that the younger Genoway will try to play a year in a Canadian junior league and see where things sit then. I imagine he'll be on the Sioux's radar screen during that time.

I've seen Oshie play on TV in the state tournament the last two years, so that's where I have formed my limited opinion. I agree that any comparison to Murray is senseless at this point, stylistically and in terms of their impact on the team next year. I had considered Murray the heir to Jeff Panzer, as he's the only player since to bring blinding speed with nice hands. That is about as much praise as a player can get from me, as Panzer as a senior was close to as good as we have seen in the sweater. I think that if he were healthy next year, Murray would have been a Hobey finalist. Stylistically, Murray's strength, skating, seems to be Oshie's only real weakness. I have seen enough of Oshie to respect his vision, hands, strength and defensive responsibility. But I do think he'll be a step slow out of the gate, and that will hold him back initially. I'll be happy to be proven wrong, and I'm definitely rooting against my opinion.

FWIW, The linked article was from July, 2004. Since then, Toews and Rogan completed a season with SSM's bantam team. Toews led the team in scoring with 151 points in 69 games, while Rogan was the team's sixth leading scorer with 73 points in 68 games. Obviously, the two prospects have diverged a bit in the last year. Also, I know Toews was eventually selected 117th overall in the WHL draft, and I'm not sure whether Rogan was drafted. As discussed at the time, Toews was selected so late because the WHL teams think it likely that he will choose the NCAA route.

(Was going to call the big classes bulges, but I didn't want to title a thread: comparing the bulges.) Kermit had this insightful post in the Murray thread: ------------------------ The Sioux were a decent team in 2001-2, and they weren't far from being a very good team. Several of the freshmen had very good years. Bochenski and Schneider were outstanding. Schneider, Jones, and Fuher ranked 2,3, and 4 on the team among d-men in plus/minus. The team had some excellent goal scorers (Bayda, Skarperud, Bochenski), but lacked a great playmaking center. The biggest problem was in goal where Andy Kollar had a very disappointing year. I also thought that the senior defensemen (Mazurak and Schneekloth) regressed that year. The next group of incoming freshmen has at least as much talent, but much less experience than the 01-02 group. Chris Fournier played FOUR years in the USHL, Brian Canady 3, Andy Schneider 2+, Nick Fuher 2, James Massen 2, etc. Maybe that explains why some of these guys didn't improve as much AFTER coming to UND. ------------------------ This got me thinking about taking a closer look at the two classes. Here are comparisons of the players' ages (The age shown is the player's age on September 1st of the year they entered school.): Forwards: 21.1 Canady 20.5 Faul 19.6 Connelly 19.6 Massen 19.6 McMahon 19.4 Bochenski 19.4 Fournier 19.9 AVERAGE 20.5 Martens 20.1 Duncan 19.6 Miller 19.2 Kozek 18.8 Watkins 18.7 Oshie 17.3 Toews 19.2 AVERAGE The difference in the average age works out to about 8.5 months, which is pretty significant. A more telling observation is that four players in the 2005 class would be the youngest player in the 2001 class. Defense: 20.5 Fuher 20.1 Schneider 18.1 Jones 19.5 AVERAGE 20.7 Alexander 18.6 Jones 18.4 Lee 18.3 Chorney 19.0 AVERAGE Although the difference in the average is only six months, it's pretty clear that the 2001 class had two seasoned players and one relative pup, while the 2005 class has three pups and one older player. Overall, I agree that the 2005 class has perhaps greater potential than the 2001 class, but it might not be realized in the first year, due to the relative youth and inexperience of the 2005 players. As to the quality of the team the classes are moving into, Kermit nailed the comparison. In 2001-02 both Bayda and Skarperud finished in the top five in WCHA scoring. In addition, very solid and dependable forwards like Lundbohm, Notermann and Spiewak were present. The current returning group (knock on wood) of Zajac, Stafford, Spirko, Prpich, Porter and Fabian compares favorably, but it's close. On defense, Schneekloth, Mazurak, Hale and Leinweber returned. The preseason view was that this was a solid base to work in three newcomers. It didn't work out that way, as Hale's health issues and Schneekloth's and Mazurak's spotty seasons forced a baptism by fire for the freshmen. As trying as that was, the returning group in 2005 is even more questionable. (I personally expect the NHL to fix its issues, with Greene pursuing his career, and Bina to be unavailable this year.) That would mean the returning players would be Smaby (a rock), Radke (not far from a freshman himself) and Marvin and Foyt (more forwards now than defensemen). This time around, we know the kids will be required to play significant roles. Unfortunately, they'll all be just 18, rather than 20 as Schneider and Fuher were. Fortunately, they might ultimately be more talented overall. The big difference, as Kermit noted, is that UND has two very capable goaltenders for 2005, which should help alleviate the main problem with the team in 2001-02. The last point of comparison for me is that the league overall seems much tougher in 2005 than 2001. CC, Denver, MN and Wisconsin all look very tough, with all the lower tier teams (save perhaps SCSU) seemingly able to beat anyone on any weekend as well. The coaching staff has a big, big job ahead of it next year. It will be frustrating at times, but also fun to watch the potential.

I understand that David Hale turned down very solid first-round bonus money to return for his junior year at UND, largely because he wanted to get the prgram back on track after a disappointing season in 2001-02. The big problem that has bitten the Sioux in the last few years is professional offers that sunset for one reason or another. Parise's choice was to take a big bonus (close to $1 million?) or wait for at least a season for what would almost certainly be a smaller bonus. Hard to say "no" when the offer expires soon, with no idea what a future offer might include. Murray faced a similar dilemma. I don't understand the specifics of the Swiss league eligibility issue, but on the surface it appears that he either took this offer now or nothing later, as it wouldn't be available to him later. It's disappointing, as I had hoped he would stylistically be the heir to Jeff Panzer, but totally understandable. I wish him well. I have thought for a while that UND since the new arena was built has turned into Michigan. Terrific high-level recruits, regularly nationally competitive, but falling short at the end, partly because of a lack of experienced impact players. UND's top line has had the following makeup in the last few years: 2002-3 freshman, sophomore, other 2003-4 freshman, sophomore, junior 2004-5 freshman, freshman, sophomore I think the near-term and medium-term future is bright, but this will continue to be a drag on UND and other top programs.

Nicely done, The Sicatoka. I had done the work and was about to type it up when I checked one last time, and you had beat me to it. Seeing Walski in your post reminded me to check Alexander, who wore #2 last year for the Jets.

That's it! Fire Hakstol.

Fair enough, but which shoulder (and I don't mean right or left). Both Murray and Miller had shoulder surgery, and Prpich was rumored to need it after the season.

Yttrium has had solid info on Oshie going back to the beginning, so I personally consider it to be prettly likely. Thanks for the info, and good luck to Oshie. I think he's going to turn into a terrific player: a rare combination of strength and hands. Just needs to get a little quicker IMO.

I don't disagree about Oshie being better in years 2-5. I have only included him based on word here on the SS board (didn't you know that everything you read on the internet is true?) that he was likely to come in this Fall. It's fine with me either way. As CouteaRinkRat says, I'll trust the coaches on this one.

I expect Stafford back, but I'm not as certain as you. We don't know what the professional hockey landscape will look like with a new CBA, so it's hard to be sure what will happen. There may be a rush of signings; there may be few. I just know that with a first-round draft choice, the risk is always present.

There were 13 forwards on last year's roster. In the Final Five, Murray, Kaip and Prpich were out, and Fabian was hurt but played anyway (I think). That's 4 down, leaving 9 forwards and a few converted defensemen. I think 13 is too few by about two. Aside from the regular injury concerns, I think the Sioux forward roster has three specific risks: Stafford leaving early, Kaip suffering another concussion, and Miller's shoulder rehabilitation not being complete by the Fall (although maybe this is already fine, and I'm just not aware an a distant observer). With all 15 forwards present and healthy, playing time would be a tricky issue. My preliminary guess is that these guys are "regulars': Prpich Murray Porter Stafford Spirko Zajac Toews That leaves 5 spots for 8 players: Fabian Kaip Duncan Kozek Mertens Miller Oshie Watkins Again, without seeing anyone play, my first guess is that the guys most at risk for sitting in the stands are Fabian, Kaip, Mertens and Miller. It's hard to see Fabian, who was not far from being Frozen Four MVP, and Kaip, who was a promising regular, on this list, so maybe my first guess is not a good one at all. It should be interesting to watch, and unfortunately injuries will make the coaches' decisions a little easier.

Sorry I can't add any info, but I do recall that the rumor was that he was going to play next year in the USHL and then try to walk on.

Martens played two years in the MJHL, at age 16 and 17, before moving on to the BCHL for two more years. 2001-02 Selkirk Steelers 59 GP 5-13-18 2002-03 Selkirk Steelers 57 GP 19-30-49 However it works out at UND, I've got to feel good for a kid who has stuck with his (assumed) goal of playing NCAA hockey, and finally made it. Edit: Martens was picked by Swift Current in the 9th round (157 overall) of the 2000 WHL Bantam Draft.

A little perspective on Martens. His DOB is 3-10-85, so he's about 4 months older than Duncan, and more than a year older than Watkins and Kozek. His numbers obviously don't compare too favorably with the other three: Kozek 60 GP 48-49-97 Duncan 57 GP 48-43-91 Watkins 60 GP 36-38-74 Martens 60 GP 22-40-62 However, when you consider the teams they played on, and Quesnell was lousy, his numbers look a little brighter. With Martens' 62 points, he contributed to 35% of Quesnell's 177 goals scored. Here's how that compares: Kozek 39% of 246 Martens 35% of 177 Duncan 34% of 268 Watkins 32% of 232 One last note: His hometown is listed as Selkirk, MB, which makes him another Canadian prairie kid headed to UND. He's 20 now, so I'm sure the coaches have seen him play more than a few times in the last five years.

I searched the GF Herald site for "Marto" to see if there was a story about the USHL draft, and I found that the kid must indeed be a heck of an athlete. In the last week, these are the mentions in the paper: May 6: Jake Marto had three hits and Brandon Kreitinger got the complete-game victory in Game 2. May 8: Marto was 6-for-8 with a home run and Dan Cary 4-for-7 on the day for the Knights. May 11: Jake Marto was the winning pitcher and also went 3-for-4 at the plate. May 13: Grand Forks Central's Jake Marto was the second overall pick in Thursday's United States Hockey League draft.

I would highly doubt that Alexander would play in the USHL next year. UND needs him now. My guess is that he is coming because Bina got injured. If we assume the NHL finally gets going and Greene pursues his pro career, and Bina is unavailable for 2005-06, the Sioux defense roster looks like this: Smaby Radke Chorney Jones Lee Marvin Foyt While I really appreciate the roles Marvin and Foyt play for the team, they were the 8th and 9th defensemen last year for a reason. This roster is just plain short, so another guy is needed for next year. I have thought all along they might add a 21-year old from Canada, because he would at least be physically mature. You can't have FOUR 18-year-old defensemen. So they picked up Alexander. (Fargo's almost Canada, right?) It's probably better to add a guy like Alexander, who has at least been through the wars in juniors for a few years, than to mess up the development timetable for guys like Hardwick and Ammerman. Alexander might not be a blue-chipper, but the staff is in a bit of a bind when they need to go defenseman shopping in April. I'm sure they've followed him and think he can help. [Handyman, are you reading? He's from Armstrong. Do you know anything about him?] Welcome aboard, Todd. You probably grew up wanting to be a Gopher. Now you get to relish beating them.

Sorry to be so dense, but does that mean at UND starting in the Fall of 2005 or 2006? Thanks.

Oilers' reps go on to say they really, really, really want Matt playing pro hockey next year. In my opinion, he has physically dominated college hockey and I can see why Edmonton would wish that. Of course, they can have their wishes and I can have mine, which is that he would return for his senior year.