82SiouxGuy

Believe it or not, UND might have trouble fitting lacrosse in the schedule at the Alerus Center if they wanted to try. The Alerus only has 2 open weekends in the arena between now and June. A lot of these events are annual. They may have more dates open during the week, but those wouldn't be as good for attendance at a sporting event. It might be worth exploring, but availability could be an issue.

I agree with the bolded statement. I would add to that the fact that the original deadline for gaining tribal approval had passed. UND would have been under sanctions on the day the trial ended without getting that extension. So if UND had lost the lawsuit, they would have been under sanctions with no chance of ever getting acceptable tribal approval.

Your original post: I gave you multiple sources for stories that talked about Spirit Lake filing a lawsuit against the NCAA and also being part of the group getting petition signed. Some of the articles were from November when the lawsuit was filed and some from the past couple of weeks. All from sources out of state, including major newspapers across the country, ESPN and Time. That isn't enough for you, now you want every article on the subject to mention these facts. How about a couple of more facts that they might also want to include in those articles. Like the fact that every Sioux tribe across the country, except Spirit Lake, has officially come out against the nickname. Or the fact that every other tribe in the Great Plains, other than Spirit Lake, is against the nickname. The last vote was 11-0 with 5 tribes missing last spring. The vote previous to that was 15-0 with Spirit Lake missing. Or how about the fact that in the past few months the Governor of North Dakota, approximately 2/3 of the North Dakota Legislature, the State Board of Higher Education, the UND Alumni Foundation and the UND Administration have all come out in favor of changing the nickname. Or how about the fact that some of the people most affected by continuing use of the nickname, including the UND Student Senate, the UND Student Body President and coaches of the 2 biggest athletic programs on campus, have come out in favor of changing the name. Some people would think that all of these are relevant facts. You don't get to pick and choose which facts are used by people writing articles. They may not find the same things relevant as you do. But your original premise, that no one on a national basis has reported that Spirit Lake is part of the efforts to keep the nickname, is false.

We went over this a long time ago. The difference is that the University of North Dakota Fighting Sioux will become the University of North Dakota Something Else. Notice the first part doesn't change. The location doesn't change. Your comparison doesn't change and it also doesn't make sense. The comparable situation in professional sports would be the Washington Bullets becoming the Wizards. In that case I am pretty sure that very few people felt they changed the team. They just changed the name. Just like UND is trying to do.

You can be so childish. It really doesn't reflect well on you or your cause when you constantly insult others. The lawsuit was news when it was filed. People aren't going to keep going back to it every time they write something. They will cover it if something actually happens with the lawsuit. I was actually going to post a bunch of links for you, but I decided you could go find them yourself. Just Google spirit lake sued ncaa. Stories come up from Nov 1, 2011 into Feb 2012. Besides the sites I mentioned earlier you can add the Boston Globe, Time for Kids, Minnesota Public Radio and ESPN. I'm sure I could add more recognizable names if I wanted to search a little further. And no, I don't think that it would have changed Ms. Blounts column much to add the lawsuit information. The fact that the information has been out there across the country since the day the lawsuit was announced shows that it isn't the issue that you think it is. People across America don't care what the nickname is for the University of North Dakota athletic teams. They don't care what the NCAA is doing. They don't care that the NCAA is holding 2 states hostage over the Confederate flag and they don't care about sports nicknames. If the country cared about Native American nicknames in college sports it would have been an issue some time between Aug 2005 and now. Like when the University of Illinois had to give up their Chief. That would have gotten a lot more coverage than a nickname in North Dakota. People also don't care what the tribe is doing. Every town in the country has an issue that someone thinks should be national news. Most of the time it isn't. Sometimes, thanks to the internet, it will show up in places across the country, people will comment on it and then they move on. Because there will be another issue that shows up for them to comment on. But the general public across the country is not going to jump on this issue or make a big deal out of it.

You are just a fan of a nickname, not a fan of the teams. The teams are made of people, that are part of the University of North Dakota. The teams exist with or without the nickname. They are just called by a different name. Remember, a rose by any other name smells as sweet.

But if the Athletic Department goes away, so would the nickname and logo. I have never figured out how that benefits people willing to kill the Athletic Department.

Population within 325 miles of Grand Forks is over 2 million. That includes Minneapolis-St. Paul and Winnipeg. So that population determination has some relevance, but isn't going to be the whole story either.

They are in the process of talking with a variety of community groups to get feedback on the project. They will make some adjustments based on the feedback, and then will start a fundraising campaign. They have the $2.5 million commitment from the Blue Line Club, it is a matching grant so they would need to raise that same amount to get the full amount. Then they hope to sell the naming rights for approximately $2 million. That would provide the $7 million they need to complete the project the way they want. Maintenance and upkeep would be paid out of rentals and tournaments income. Very little ice time is available for rentals right now. A rink could probably be rented out just about every week night through the winter right now with current demand. Very few hockey tournaments or ice skating competitions are held in Grand Forks because of a lack of available facilities. They project they could host 8-10 weekends of tournaments the first year and potentially double that at some time in the future. There is a lot of demand for more youth hockey tournaments in the region, especially from teams north of the border. These tournments would also help fill hotels and restaurants Friday through Sunday during those weekends.

The difference now, especially with Wisconsin and Minnesota, is that they have changed their policy to fit the NCAA policy. So playing them would be possible, and even probable, if the name is changed. And with the changing conference landscape UND is losing any potential games with traditional hockey rivals in Wisconsin and Minnesota. Even though UND gave ups some of the recruiting advantage in Minnesota and Wisconsin with the move up to Division I, some of that would be gained back by getting those games with Big 10 schools. Everyone knew that the transition years would be difficult and that opponents would be constantly changing. Using that period as a basis for discussion is not genuine. The Great West was a stop gap measure and basically a scheduling alliance rather than a real conference. The new future starts with play in the Big Sky next year. But wanting to regain a presence in fertile recruiting ground like the Twin Cities and Wisconsin is just smart since so many regular students at UND come from those areas. It only makes sense that the Athletic Department would try to capitalize on that familiarity. That's why losing possible games with those schools has again become an issue. As far as announcing when other schools have refused scheduling because of the nickname, as I said yesterday, there are probably times when UND won't or hasn't found out that the nickname is the reason that a school won't schedule a game. Schools don't have to give reasons for not scheduling a game. It just doesn't happen. They just schedule someone else instead. So it may have happened an unknown number of times, or it may happen at some time in the future, and UND wouldn't know it was the reason. There are good reasons that schools wouldn't want to have a potential issue with either protestors or their fans saying stupid things. For example see UND versus Duluth in hockey 2 weeks ago.

I just did a quick search. I found mentions on time.com, washingtonpost.com, foxnews.com, yahoo.com and many other sites. All mention that the Spirit Lake tribe has filed a lawsuit against the NCAA and that tribe members were an active part of the referendum process. I'm sure that there were many more. Just like I said, no one is hiding that fact. But it hasn't ignited any groundswell of support that you keep looking for.

They have had multiple press conferences. It was covered by all news media in North Dakota and that is available to the rest of the country. The AP had the story. It has even been mentioned in other places. No one is hiding it. People don't care. And if they do, not all of them are going to think the same way you do. This isn't going to be the movement that you think it should be. You want national media attention. Check out the Star Tribune column by Rachel Blount from yesterday. It has been picked up by multiple newspapers around the country. It was also linked in one of these threads. It isn't favorable to your side of the argument.

Maybe the fact that none of them are making a big deal of it should show you it isn't that as big a deal as you think it is. No one has hidden the fact that Spirit Lake has filed a lawsuit. No one has hidden the fact that they are part of the group trying to get the name put into law. Yet none of them seem to care. So it doesn't really seem to change the tenor nearly as much as you think it does. There, was that enough for you?

NO!

Pretty much a wash between the schools. But pulling the student seats out at NDSU games show an even bigger margin over the 4 years for the home and home with UND versus paying 4 stiffs to come and play. Just trying to help emphasize your point a little bit.

As I pointed out in the other thread, none of us will have any effect on the Spirit Lake lawsuit. We couldn't help or hurt the lawsuit if we wanted to. It will be about the evidence plain and simple. And as many people have pointed out, the trial will take multiple years to finish even if neither side appeals. None of us are being misled by the current Administration. They have done exactly what their bosses want them to do. And they have been pretty honest about the actual circumstances. On the other hand, many people have been fed half-truthes and total lies by people with an agenda that has nothing to do with the nickname. They are using the emotion tied to the nickname to accomplish something totally different. And they don't care if they damage the University to accomplish that goal. The Administration will not make a promise when they would have no idea whether they could fulfill it or not, that's why they won't promise to reinstate the name if Spirit Lake wins. There are too many variables, including how long the trial is going to take, to know what things will be like at that time. Only a fool would make that promise. And one of the legal eagles can correct me, but if the referral wins I don't think it could be referred again for 7 years. That may be just enough time to destroy the Athletic Department. The only way to get rid of the law before that time would be a vote of at least 2/3 of the legislature.

The general public has absolutely no influence on a lawsuit. You keep talking like Spirit Lake would have a better chance to win if everyone got behind them. That isn't how trials work. Each side will present evidence. Then either the judge or a jury will make a decision. It doesn't matter whether we want Spirit Lake to win or not. The odds of Spirit Lake winning are not good, and the University can't put any faith in that success. That's why it is time to move on now rather than keeping the name around until the end of the lawsuit.

It's not that it's a surprise. But being off the sanctions list had led to some scheduling with those schools. The group pushing the nickname has stated that there would be no repercussions to keeping the name. Losing the games that had been scheduled proves that this is false. Earlier in this thread I talked about why playing these schools is advantageous to UND. They could become somewhat regular opponents for UND and give UND a bigger platform within the region. That would be good for UND fans and for recruiting. UND will miss that because of the sanctions. That is actual loss of money and exposure that is a result of the sanctions. It is really that hard to understand why both might be important to UND? Nickname supporters say that UND would not be harmed by keeping the nickname, we have actual proof that this is not true.

Wisconsin changed their policy to follow the NCAA sanctions list. That was discussed and a link provided in another thread in this forum. I have not found an updated Iowa policy. However, since Wisconsin and Minnesota now follow the NCAA list it is not out of the question that Iowa may have changed their policy also. I do know that in years past Iowa has made statements that they would not schedule Florida State or other schools with NA mascots for non-conference games.

People need to get over that. The policy is in place. The members of the NCAA have okayed the process and the policy. It isn't going to change any time soon. LIFE ISN'T FAIR. We know what is going to happen to UND and that is what is important, not whether it's fair that FSU, Utah and other smaller schools didn't have to change. UND had the same chance as those schools and couldn't accomplish what those schools did. Deal with the here and now, not how the NCAA handles all of the other schools.

I would be surprised if the Big Sky gave an ultimatum. At some point they will announce either that it will be on the next agenda, or that the vote was already taken. Giving the ultimatum would be bad public relations and be longer lasting than just acting on the issue. The damage is already beginning. The cancelled games are one example. It is not a leap to figure that other schools will just avoid the issue. The anecdotal evidence that Dale Lennon provided, saying that student-athletes have decided not to even consider UND because of sanctions, is even more troubling. That piece is just beginning. Accuracy is not always a part of recruiting. Other schools will use the sanctions, probably already have, to scare athletes away from UND. Losing top athletes will affect the chances of winning games, which will affect attendance and giving. That is a cancer that will continue to eat away at the Athletic Department. That is more than enough reason to change the name even without the threat from the Big Sky.

The reason that Minnesota and Wisconsin have become even more important is the fact that they will be in a different hockey conference. Wisconsin was going to continue the rivalry, but have now said they will not. Minnesota had not committed to continue playing UND before, now they will not. Losing those opponents are the first visual evidence that even the hockey program at UND will suffer from the sanctions. That's something that may sway some of the hockey only crowd. Games against these 3 schools in other sports were something that people were looking forward to when the Division I move was announced. Making them happen would be a good addition to the program. Again, Central Michigan is not a good comparison because they have namesake approval so they are not on sanctions. They have played many Big 10 schools in different sports. And even if they hadn't, Michigan and Michigan State would be comparable Big 10 schools for Central Michigan. As far as other schools that won't play UND, you're right in that those are the ones we know about. We don't know what other schools have decided not to schedule UND because they don't want to deal with the issue. They don't have to announce that. They can just say they aren't interested. They don't have to announce a reason for not putting a game on the schedule. I wouldn't be surprised if that has happened at least a few times. Especially after issues arose in places like Dartmouth, Texas Tech and in California.

I've asked that question several times and read through the Big Sky bylaws. I still haven't found the answer so I don't know if it is different from removal of a full member.

No, Minnesota is the closest FBS program to North Dakota. A large number of UND alumni live in the Twin Cities and even more live within easy driving distance to attend the games. That includes Grand Forks and Fargo. Minnesota is also home to the regional cable sports affiliate, and they give good coverage to the Minnesota program. Therefore a regional school that plays them gets more exposure in the region. Wisconsin and Iowa would be among the next closest, and are still within reasonable driving distance. That's why those schools are important to a new Division I school, and to a FCS school. Not having them available as potential opponents is a blow to the program.