82SiouxGuy

I am crusading to support the University of North Dakota and do what is best for the student-athletes, the coaches, the staff and the bulk of the fans. The unfortunate result is retiring the nickname. I don't WANT to retire the nickname. I want UND to be successful, and that can't happen with the sanctions in place. So UND NEEDS to retire the name to be successful. You have a personal want and that comes first for you. I am supporting the needs of the University, trying to support the greater good. I will support the University either way. I will keep my season tickets either way. You will only follow UND if they are the Sioux. Your position is selfish, I'm trying not to be selfish. That's where the main difference is. You can't see past YOU and your wants.

By keeping the name and staying in the NCAA you are still supporting the NCAA. The NCAA is not harmed in any way by UND keeping or retiring the nickname. So you aren't following your own standard. If you don't want to support the NCAA because you think they are racist than you should be demanding that UND leaves the NCAA. Anything less means that you are a hypocrite. Of course you should also realize that if UND were to give up athletics the nickname would also go away. So you advocating to end sports would mean that you are advocating to end the nickname. The only way you can advocate to keep the nickname alive and still not support the NCAA would be to ask UND to move to the NAIA. That is the only logical conclusion. Ending sports at UND ends the nickname. Staying in the NCAA either with or without the nickname means supporting the NCAA. There is only one place left for you to go.

But it doesn't look right to Dave and that's what's important. It's all about what Dave likes.

There was never an invitation to the public to "Come and show your support". They were press conferences. Only the press and really curious people show up at press conferences. I thought about showing up at the one in Grand Forks, but I had already read the newspaper story about Fargo so I knew what they were going to say. Attendance at those events have absolutely nothing to do with support for the Alumni Foundation position or the University of North Dakota.

The NCAA asked for written confirmation from every tribe that had given approval so that they were sure the approval was still current. It isn't insulting, it was a way to cover themselves. You may not have been paying attention, but the approval was conditional and there were questions about whether the tribe thought the conditions were met. Approval from any of the tribes can be removed with a single vote at any time, so the NCAA wanted to make sure what the tribe's position was at that time. You say it was a waste of time. Here is what was required. To Whom It May Concern, Spirit Lake passed a resolution in 2000 stating support for the University of North Dakota's use of the Fighting Sioux nickname. That resolution is still in place. Sincerely yours. Print, sign and mail. Total time less than 5 minutes. The tribe refused to do that because the Tribal Chair was not in favor of the nickname usage and saw an opportunity. Therefore Spirit Lake gets some of the blame for not taking 5 minutes to be a good neighbor. The pipe ceremony is not as cut and dried as you try to make it out. If it were then the Standing Rock tribe would recognize it. It was their delegation that went to UND. Not all Native Americans remember the ceremony as you describe it. It isn't just UND officials. It wasn't the only time a delegation went to UND to meet with officials. There are multiple pictures of Starcher wearing headdresses from different visits. They couldn't all be official ceremonies. Most reports say that the Tribal Chair from Standing Rock was part of the delegation. Yet, in 1992 he voted in favor of a resolution protesting UND using the nickname while he was serving on the Tribal Council. He obviously didn't consider it an official sacred ceremony. Since there is no official record of the ceremony, and there is a great deal of disagreement about what it meant, then the NCAA could in no way use that as an official approval. They needed to follow the wishes of the tribal governments, not a rumor from 1969. Standing Rock has been steadfast in opposing the nickname from at least 1992. Judge Erickson seemed to agree with the decision not to base a decision on the pipe ceremony. “While the court respects the sanctity and solemnity that tribal traditions richly deserve, the 1969 pipe ceremony has no legal significance on the facts as pled by the committee,” Erickson wrote. “While it is rudimentary contract law that legal obligations can be created between parties in ways other than putting pen to paper, the 1969 pipe ceremony fails to meet the basic requirements of a contract.” So you expect the NCAA to use a standard different from the legal standard?

No, Eunice said that she respected the right of the tribe to run their government as they thought right, including letting the Tribal Council make the decision if that was the way they wanted to run their government. I haven't polled every Chippewa tribe or Seminole tribe. I know that the Seminoles in Oklahoma have voted something like 18-3 that they don't have any problems with Florida State. I haven't seen any votes from any of the other Chippewa tribes about Central Michigan. There are what, 15 or 16 Sioux reservations in the United States? Almost every one of them has issued some kind of statement or Tribal Council vote against UND using the nickname. Most of them participate in the Great Plains Tribal Chair Association. That group has had multiple votes against UND using the nickname with none of the tribes voting in approval. Spirit Lake missed one of those votes and abstained in another. So not all of the other tribes in the region are Sioux, but there are many other Sioux tribes besides Spirit Lake and Standing Rock, and the rest are pretty much all against UND using the Sioux nickname. You keep going back to the tribal members voting. More than half of the states don't have any kind of referrendum or initiated measures available. Our government is based on electing representatives to make decisions for us. That is the way our Federal government is set up. You don't get to vote on any issues that are discussed by Congress or the President. That is also the way that many tribes are set up. In that case, the vote of the governmental body is how the decision is made. You don't have to like it, but you should respect it. It doesn't matter if the decision comes down to a single vote, that's how the decision is made. So the vote of the Standing Rock Tribal Council is final unless they decide to change it.

I'm holding you to the same standards that I hold myself to. I work very hard not to be selfish, to give back to the greater good. That is true on the board and in real life. You seem to be a little selfish. Just saying.

Really, it shouldn't. I don't come here to read what you like or want. I come to share information and ideas. It isn't the same thing. You didn't like when I suggested you read something from the Bible. Maybe you should read http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0001930/ instead. Check the list of symptoms, especially the last 2. This really explains a lot.

We know what your priority is, it's you. Most of your posts are about you and what you want. You want to keep the name. You want football uniforms that fit like the ones from the 70's. You don't like HD TV. You think the Pens are angels. It's always about you. You always interject what you want, and often highjack threads to do it. Your set of values seems to be about being selfish. It doesn't matter what is good for the players or the coaches or for anyone else as long as YOU get to keep your sacred nickname. I don't know if you've heard, but there is no I in TEAM. The issue about retiring the nickname is about the TEAM. Being under sanctions is bad for the TEAM. No one on this forum is a totally impartial observer, and most of us really like the nickname, but retiring it is what is best for the TEAM. In this case the TEAM means the athletic department and the school. We have learned to sacrifice our own wants to get what is best for the TEAM that we care about. You can't comprehend that because you have the bizarre belief that the nickname is the team. It isn't and you should be old enough to know the difference. Instead you are willing to let the foundation be destroyed so you can keep the sign on the door. That's what the nickname is, a label or a sign on the door.

Let's see, keep a sports nickname so that a few selfish fans can get what they want but you lose hundreds of thousands of dollars, maybe millions and lose the support of most of your fanbase because you have a losing program, OR simply choose a new nickname and have a chance to be successful on the playing surface as well as being able to pay the bills. Yeah, that's an easy choice. A healthy athletic program is what's important because it's good for the school. But I'm pretty sure that you still won't really get what I'm saying because you haven't gotten a thing I've ever posted on this forum.

And the fans that will continue to support the program may not be able to pay all of the bills. That is one of the ways that programs fall apart.

Look at probably 90% of the athletic teams in the country. When they are successful they get more fans in the seats, more people buying tickets, more people buying merchandise, etc. When the teams lose attendance goes down, less tickets are sold, etc. This results in less money, and means cuts have to be made, which probably hurts the program even more. There are only a few programs that can escape this pattern. The Chicago Cubs is the first that jumps to mind. Look at football crowds the last couple of years at UND. Look at hockey crowds during the early 90's at UND. Look at basketball crowds the last few years at UND. When the teams lose attendance goes down. That is a fact. Setting up the program to die a slow death like this is not fair to the athletes or the coaches when it can be avoided by changing the nickname.

As far as I know, no assistant coach in any sport has been quoted on the nickname issue. That isn't their position. The head coach speaks for the program. So the fact that Eades didn't make a public statement about the nickname is exactly what was expected and in no way would be a factor in this decision. The stupidity just goes on and on.

I can't help it if you live in some fantasy world where nothing bad happens to the magic Fighting Sioux. Dale Lennon stated that several football recruits that he was also recruiting told him that they would not consider UND because of the sanctions. Are you calling Dale Lennon a liar? If you are you are an even bigger fool than you appear on this board. There are reports that almost every potential recruit this spring has brought up the issue. Other schools are going to use the issue. Athletes do not want to attend schools that are under sanctions because they are basically playing with 1 arm tied behind their back. If you were a talented athlete that was offered scholarships to 3 schools, 2 of them are not under sanctions and 1 school is under sanctions, what do you think the chances are you would choose the school that is under sanctions? Probably near zero. What happens if you don't get talented athletes to join your team? You lose. So talented athletes will be scared away because of the sanctions, the teams will lose more often. Losing more means smaller crowds. Smaller crowds means less money. It's a pretty simple chain to follow. If you want to see what UND athletics will look like in 5 years just look at Alcorn State. The football team was 2-8 this year. Men's basketball was 10-22. Women's basketball was 14-20. That's what you aspire to Fetch. Won't you be proud? Of course you don't care about any of those sports. The equivalent hockey record will be about 15-25, so that will be the team you root for, except you'll probably quit paying attention to them since they'll be losing so often. That's quite a future you hope for.

You do realize that the Nets play basketball and this is a hockey coaching position, don't you?

Now your short term memory is going. I already told you what happens next. First, it goes back to the Supreme Court. They are probably forced to make a decision, although it may have to go through District Court first. Most people think the law gets thrown out as unconstitutional. If not, the Legislature has the power to overturn the law and throw it out. If by some bad fortune it ends up staying the program will slowly be choked. Recruits are already starting to avoid UND in many sports. That will continue and increase in all sports. Quality of play will get worse and teams will start losing more often. We don't know if the Big Sky will throw UND out or not, if they do the program goes down much more quickly. If the Big Sky throws UND out the football program is probably disbanded within 3-4 years. More and more schools will avoid playing UND in all sports. The hockey team will start to suffer as teams avoid playing them, starting with Minnesota and Wisconsin. It wouldn't be surprising if the other Big 10 schools and even East Coast schools also refuse to play UND. And the recruits will even start avoiding the UND hockey team. Oh, all the while attendance will continue to drop because the teams are losing, so the program may start losing money. The amount of damage will depend on how long it takes for sanity to return and people decide to retire the name. After that there will be a rebuilding process that will take longer than it takes to tear things down. Pretty rosy future, isn't it Fetch? That's what your No vote gets. And you still think it's worth it just to keep a sports nickname.

LakesDave doesn't have the ability to change his mind. And that would be fine. But he has to continually repeat himself and that highjacks threads. It becomes what he wants versus what everyone else likes (because it is rare that anyone else agrees with him). The fact is, we don't care what he wants.

You are correct. He said that they were going to do some new things because of the move to the Big Sky and that is one of them.

Then try not to take the bait.

Gopher fans will blame UND for that whole mess when they see that picture.

North Dakota was offered the same deal. Several small schools were able to get approval from local tribes and got the same deal as Florida State and Utah. None of the tribes would help UND. Spirit Lake had a resolution in place from 2000, they just had to confirm it in writing within the appeal window. They refused to write the letter or do anything else until the tribe members forced the vote and the Tribal Council had to follow the wishes of the tribe. That happened about 1 1/2 years after the settlement. You can blame the delegation for not getting involved, but UND had an opportunity for the same 1 tribe approval and couldn't get it done in time. I would spread blame across UND, the State Board of Higher Education and the Spirit Lake Tribal Council for that.

Very true. Doing without both would be the ultimate.

You must since you keep coming back here and leaving strange messages.

Let's do a quick review of the competition. In football UND leads the all-time record with NDSU, 62-45-3. UND won the last game. In men's basketball UND leads the all-time record 157-127. UND won the last game. In women's basketball UND leads the all-time record 41-37. UND won the last game. All records come from the Bison Media guide so I can't vouch for the acuracy. And of course there is no competition in hockey. It doesn't look like there is really a comparison of success, especially in head to head action. Maybe that's why NDSU fans try every way they can to make themselves feel superior. The envy shows with every thread on Bville about UND and with every stupid comment made by a Bison fan on this site. Congrats, Dan, you represent well for your pals.

There is also the group that is just tired of hearing about this. Most of them will vote to let the name be retired. But I don't know how big that group is across the state.