larsensa

I am guessing the NCAA would continue to ban UND from hosting if the fans continued to do the things the NCAA considers to be "hostile" and "abusive". Just a guess but I wouldn't doubt it if the NCAA considered the fans carrying on the Sioux tradition as carrying on the hostility and abuse even though they don't include fans in the list of players, cheerleaders, band members, and whoever else their list included.

I know there is. The NCAA has been inconsistent in their rulings and they have used their power in places they don't belong. I should've included that in what I have said. Isn't there a way that the 1250 + NCAA member organizations could vote on this issue? I think that is what many others here have already asked or said. Based on what it says on the NCAA website that is the way they CLAIM things are done. The NCAA is full of CRAP on their website. How has the American Indian situation been a bottom-up decision? I have never heard anyone say that the members voted and ruled on this decision. The NCAA Executive Committee ruled on the decision. I do hope UND takes them to court and wins. I think it would also be good if the members voted on it to see what the ENTIRE membership thinks. If a majority oppose teams using American Indian names, etc... then it would be hard for the schools effected not to comply.

Go back and read my posts. I said, if an atheist school wanted to do that it would be their right to do so but I don't think they would receive very much support from Christians which would then lead to them not receiving much support from the NCAA. I am sure the NCAA would determine they were "hostile" and "abusive" for the same reasons they made that decision about UND using the Sioux name. Maybe not though, Jesus was not an American Indian which seems to be the only group the NCAA is interested in protecting.

We could be the UND Bad Lands and have a scenic logo? That could probably be used against UND in way too many ways though.... Like, if we lost a game they could say The Bison, Gophers, Badgers, Black Bears, Bulldogs, Eagles, whoever, walked or skated all over the Bad Lands..... I think it could be a cool name in some ways though?

This "holier than thou' poster is speaking from experience because my wife and I had a shotgun wedding! It takes a lot of the fun out of the wedding planning part. Especially when you lose your child the week after the wedding. I was a lot like your nephews and thought I could dodge the bullet too. So, this is why I say girls and boys who are smarter wait until after they are married. Mainly because I don't want anyone to experience what I had to experience, it sucked! Things are fine now but it sure did put a damper on the whole wedding experience. Let's get back to a more enjoyable topic, Possible Replacement Names!

Girls and boys who are even smarter, wait until they are married!

Your not accusing me of being Graham Kracker are you? If you are even comparing me to him I have been misunderstood. If you knew me you would be surprised that I am defending those that oppose UND using the name. I am a huge Sioux hockey fan and I have spent more than half my life yelling LET'S GO SIOUX and Home of the SIOUX at the end of the national anthem. I have three Sioux hockey Jerseys and 5 Sioux hockey hats, a replica of the Ralph, a lighted SIOUX goalie mask hanging on my wall, and all kinds of other Sioux stuff. I have a mini-shrine in my office at home and my car wreaks of FIGHTING SIOUX pride that I have wanted to show off in the Chicago area and everywhere else! My friends in Chicago know me as a SIOUX HOCKEY FAN! But, as I have listened to the debate over the Sioux name for most my life I have started to wonder if UND really should have the name and logo. Why? Because I haven't seen enough vocal or written support for the name from the Sioux. Plus, I have heard the way people talk about those that oppose UND using the name and the remarks usually aren't very nice. They aren't the kind of remarks that support the position that UND honors the Sioux, they are usually pretty demeaning remarks about the Sioux people. In my opinion, I don't think very many people in GF really, deep down, honor the Sioux? Like I said before, I think most people that want to keep the name want to preserve the history and traditions and they don't want the people that oppose the name to "win" the debate. I don't want to see the name and traditions go either and have a hard time thinking about what it would be like if UND doesn't have the name anymore. If UND is able to win in court against the NCAA, which will probably only happen if UND gets more support from the Sioux nation, I would be happy if UND kept the name. The one thing that really bothers me about this scenario though is UND will be putting a lot of control in the hands of the NCAA and the Sioux nation. If we changed the name, I think the power and control would be back in the hands of UND where it belongs.

Actually, how about THE IMPERIALS out of respect for Ralph?

Listen, I am not saying UND has NO Sioux support. I am just saying it doesn't seem like it is OBVIOUS support based on the lack of supporting letters, etc... I would also think that there would be more of an uproar by the Sioux that support UND using the name if one existed. Maybe I am missing something but the recent letter to the NCAA from Ron His Horse is Thunder doesn't seem to back up what you are saying. Ron His Horse is Thunder references Standing Rock Resolution 438-05 which was voted on September 15, 2005 in his letter to the NCAA on April 28, 2005 that says they do not support UND using the name. What am I missing? Here is a link to the letter:http://www2.ncaa.org/portal/media_and_even...ribe_letter.pdf I don't know what process the Sioux nation uses to elect their officials but if they didn't agree with the way they are being represented by the government of Standing Rock I would think that those that support UND using the name would create a petition and send it to the NCAA to show their OVERWHELMING or MAJOR support for UND using their name? I haven't seen that yet.

All I am saying is that UND shouldn't have to rely on a 6 year old letter. The support should be OBVIOUS and OVERWHELMING support in my opinion and I don't think UND has that right now. I think the Seminoles had obvious support which is part of the reason they had no problem with the NCAA. Am I wrong?

C'mon, no one likes any of these! I thought I was being pretty funny!

Here are a few names we could use: The Milk Drinkers - ND State Beverage - we could have a cup of milk tipped over pouring out as our mascot. Square Dancers - ND State Dance Meadowlarks - ND State Bird - we could have a Meadowlark taking a crap on Myles Brand head as our logo? This one I actually kinda like, The Northern Pikes- ND State Fish - A northern pike biting Myles Brand's head off as our logo? or we could try some of these: Southern Canadians - since ND is pretty close to the same thing eh! ABOOTs - for the way most people in ND say ABOUT! BOOT - for the way most people in ND say BOAT! The Toe-st - for the way most people in ND say TOAST! or The Fighting Ole's or Fighting Lena's or Fighting Swen's! I think I may have just found the winner of the UND Name Competition! Teredo Petrified Wood - ND State Fossil - We could have Myles Brand's Petrified Wood as our logo!!

I did speak in too broad of terms when I made these comments. In terms of Sioux Nation support I am not aware of any support UND has in writing though. Does UND have anything other than the letter from Archie Fool Bear which was basically struck down that indicates support from the tribes? Without letters of support, I don't think we do have ANY support which is why I made my previous comment. When I said UND hasn't listened to them I was referring to the fact that the Sioux have been fairly unsuportive of UND using the name for many years and have been asking UND not to keep the name but UND has kept the name and logo, etc.. anyway. This is what I meant by UND not listening. I had a new thought today about this issue. Why did the NCAA not put the Minnesota Golden Gophers on the list? I am sure if Gophers could talk they would tell the NCAA that they feel like it has been HOSTILE AND ABUSIVE towards them to have their name associated with that hockey team!!

It is not entirely the same thing but sorta the same thing. None of the Sioux nation support UND using the name and they have had this view for quite a long time. UND hasn't listened to them in my opinion. In regards to the Sioux name not being owned by anyone, I think you should take a look at the links to see where the name came from and understand the history. They didn't create the name but they started to go by the name once it was created. It seems they kinda use it like say the automaker GM does as the parent company while there are many divisions of GM cars like Cadillac, Chevy, Buick, etc...Who else uses the name Sioux other than UND but the Sioux Nation?! http://www.americanindians.com/Sioux.htmhttp://www.standingrock.org/history.htm I totally agree and think Myles Brand needs to spend a lot less time philosophizing and think about how inconsistent and stupid the NCAA has been in the way they have applied THEIR rules. They shouldn't be involved in this in the first place but since they decided to get involved they need to pull their heads out of their butts and read their own rules. Trust me, I am ticked at the NCAA for this and think it is a joke. This is why I hope UND takes them to court and kicks their asses in the lawsuit. I have no clue why they only chose to address American Indians in this policy: http://www1.ncaa.org/membership/governance...a_ec-gender.htm especially when there are many other ethnic groups and races that should've been included like the ones you mentioned. It is a bunch of BS tht they cherry picked and went for the easiest targets. I went to the NCAA's ABOUT SECTION on their website and read this: What a crock of crap. It is obvious the nation's colleges and universities are not governing their programs if the NCAA can get away with the crap they pulled on UND and the others. THe NCAA is governing and I wish all the other teams would help UND by not letting the NCAA get away with it! I think the NCAA needs to change their ABOUT SECTION to the following: The NCAA needs to be slapped around a bit I think. UND needs to work directly with the Sioux nation without the interference of the NCAA. I hope the best case scenario takes place, UND kicks some NCAA ass in court and the Sioux nation decides they want UND to continue to use their name. If the Sioux nation continues to deny our request I do think we need to respect that, for them and for UND as well, for the reasons I stated in the beginning of the thread. Let's find someone or something else that would feel honored by the honor or something like that.... unless it is something that can't talk then we would have to assume it was honored by it!?

What assurances can you provide me that there is nothing odd about UND not being able to garner the support of the Sioux since August 2005 and before? I am interested in hearing what those assurances are. Obviously an atheist school using Jesus as a mascot makes no sense but that wasn't the point. Another example would be: How would you like it if someone took your name and applied it to a cause you don't support and they wouldn't allow you to remove your name from it? How would you feel about it? Something like, PCM is the #1 fan of the Minnesota Gophers or the top advocate for the American Society of Pedophiles or something brutal like that? I am guessing you wouldn't be too happy about it. Again, extreme examples but I am trying to somehow make the point that each of us would be upset if our name was not being used in a way we wanted it to be used. I am starting to think it is just as silly as my analogy that a nearly all white school uses a revered Sioux/Native American symbol as it's nickname or mascot especially because the Sioux don't support UND using it's name at this point in time. I think it may be the time to move on. Again, I am not looking forward to the name being changed but I am tired of UND having to go through this every year. This has been going on way too many years. Let's start looking for a new name and get the new traditions going! I totally agree with this point. The NCAA ticks me off. I am not sure why it matters to them whether a tribe supports the school or not in any of these cases. The average joe sports fan watching a Florida Seminoles game isn't going to go, isn't it nice that the Seminoles have the support of the Seminole tribe? I am sure glad that UND had to get rid of their logo since the Sioux didn't support UND using their name, etc... Average joe fan isn't even going to know the difference or care for that matter. If the NCAA considers Native American imagery hostile and abusive it should all be considered hostile and abusive. It should be black and white. Either they all go, or they all stay. If even one stays and the NCAA has this rule it is still hostile and abusive that even one college team will play in games with Native American logos, etc.. I hope that UND takes the NCAA to court and wins the case and then decides what is in the best interest of the school and Sioux on it's own terms instead of the NCAA's terms. Something else I thought about today is that I don't really think that most Sioux fans really think about honoring the Sioux tribes when they support the Sioux name and logo. I think most of us like the logo and all the traditions and history the name has with UND. We think it is a cool name and a cool logo and I think that is really about all there is too it. I don't think most people watching a Sioux hockey game are sitting there thinking, man, those Sioux sure were a great tribe. I am so happy we have their name. It is such an honor for us to be associated with that tribe and I can't wait to visit their reservations. I don't think many are thinking, it would be such an honor to go hang out at the Sioux's reservation and have dinner, etc... Maybe I am wrong but I know that I have rarely spent time thinking about the Sioux nation when I am watching the best team in college hockey history!!!!

I had actually just changed my post but you replied before the change was made. I changed the school wanting to use the Jesus mascot,etc... in my example to an atheist school. I made this change to make it more similiar to the UND situation since the majority of students and alum, etc... are not Native American/Sioux. Holy Cross is a Catholic school so it makes sense they would be called The Crusaders and emphasize the cross, etc.... A Christian college, Wheaton College, in the state I now live changed it's name from The Crusaders to the Thunder because they didn't want to emphasize the things that happened during the Christian Crusades and because the name offended a lot of people I guess.

It seems odd to me that UND has had since August 5, 2005 and many years prior to garner the support of the Sioux tribes in North Dakota and surrounding areas and they were unable to do so. The recent letters from Standing Rock were like an E-Bay auction with the letters being like bids arriving in the final hours with Fool Bear sending his in only to be beat out by Ron His Horse is Thunder's letter in the end. If UND was going to get support it had to come way before the final hours and they didn't get it. Is this a failure on the part of Kupchella? It seems it might be to me. Maybe UND will, or would, never be able to change the opinions of those we need/needed to appease the NCAA? Today I thought about how this situation would impact me by substituting the Sioux for something that is important to me. As a Christian I thought about how I would feel if an atheist school had Jesus as their logo and mascot without the support of Christians. I wondered how I would feel if some of the opposing team's fans yelled cheers like Jesus sucks and Juck the Fesus and stuff like that. Some made t-shirts of Jesus in offensive positions with the other teams mascot, etc... How would I feel if that atheist team had Jesus, Christian's spiritual leader somewhat similiar to Sitting Bull, on the Cross outside of their arena. While I would see this as a school's right to do, I am pretty sure I would find it hostile and abusive towards Christians. I know this is a pretty extreme example but this is about as close as I can get to understanding what it may feel like for those that are opposed to UND using the Sioux name. My Christian faith is one of the only things that I could think of that I care about enough to be offended if it was being represented in a way I didn't want it to be. I don't think this issue is something the NCAA should be involved with but I do think it is something the Sioux nation has a right to have an opinion about. Just as I would think most people would probably expect the support of Christians if an atheist school wanted to use Jesus, Christians, or whatever as it's school mascot and logo I think it is just as important that UND have the support of the Sioux tribes if it wants to continue to use the name. UND doesn't have that support right now and that has left UND with very few options.

Interesting post PCM. I also liked what you said in the article you wrote on the blog. I need to go back and read the original reason UND chose the Sioux name. I haven't read about the history of the name in a long time. I hope in the end we may end up being able to keep the name but I am not sure what amount of time and money UND should continue to spend to do so? Maybe UND should've followed GF School's lead and changed the name when the Redskins and other teams decided to change theirs in the 90's? My original post was not meant to imply that UND should drop all the programs it is offering Native Americans in case people took what I said to mean that. I just think UND needs to be careful that their heart is in the right place when they offer the programs in the first place and that they are not using them as a bribe to keep the name because if that is the case, it isn't paying off. It will be interesting to see how the Sioux nation responds to the NCAA's decision and how it may impact the vote they have this week or any other time they vote.

Poopski, I am not sure what you are agreeing with in my post. The things you said do not relate to what my intent was when I started this thread. The thread is not based on hatred towards Native Americans, in this case, the Sioux specifically. I am only saying that it doesn't seem like the Sioux find honor in having UND use the Sioux name. If they don't, why do we want to use it? If they found honor in the name, UND wouldn't have to kiss butt to keep it. I am not saying this is the Sioux nation's fault, it is a pretty normal thing universities, companies, and the government end up doing when they want something. But if that is what it takes for UND I think it takes a lot of the fun out of us having the name. I am sad that we may have to give up the Sioux name because the NCAA made this decision. I love having the Fighting Sioux name and logo and think it is one of the best in all of sports. I am having a hard time imaging the National Anthem being sung without home of the Sioux at the end and all of the other cheers. I wish the Sioux tribes found honor in us using it and don't understand why they don't? Maybe it will end up being a case of Don't know what you got till it's gone for the Sioux nation? Losing the opportunity to host events like the NCAA regionals, finals, etc... are too valuable to the city of Grand Forks and the university. It is also valuable for us to be able to show off our school pride with our logo at NCAA events and we won't be able to do that anymore either if things stand. I don't think we should give up those opportunities for a name if it comes to that. Especially if the tribe we are trying to honor doesn't find honor in it. It is kinda like doing something for someone who doesn't appreciate it and hoping that one day they will end up liking you. In the end, it gets old and the one or group doing the giving ends up getting hurt. In this case, UND has been hurt!

Fighting Red meaning the Red River!

You are sounding a bit Hostile and Abusive! I grew up in Grand Forks and lived there for 24 years. I dreamed of playing for the Sioux one day while I was growing up playing goalie all the way through high school at RR. Currently, my home office has Sioux stuff all over it. I have a green car and my license plate frames are UND and I have Fighting Sioux Logo window emblems on each of my rear passenger windows of my car. I have a Sioux blanket. I get crap from my friends in the Chicago area for the number of Sioux hats and other Sioux clothes I wear. I have been up to the Badger series many years since I have lived in the area and made it to the BC/UND Frozen Four game. I was in Detroit in 1987 to watch the Sioux win the NCAA. My entire family in GF are season ticket holders and have been since the 70s. What don't I get about why we are using the name and logo and fighting to keep it?

You have said good things but I don't get why we care about using it anymore? Yes, the name has a huge amount of tradition and history behind it but, IMHO, it has become tarnished by the modern Sioux not seeing it as an honor nor, I am guessing, do many other Native Americans. In the meantime, UND continues to kiss butt mainly as a way to try keep the Sioux happy so UND can keep the logo while the Sioux aren't kissing back. Don't get me wrong, it is hard for me to imagine UND without the name and logo, etc... but maybe it is time for UND to take control of the issue again by changing the name and never having to deal with it again? How about the Fighting Red or Fighting Floods or Fighting Green or something like that. We could think of many cool names for UND that would take some time to get used to but using the Sioux name isn't worth it anymore unless, of course, the tribes do something that indicates they see it as an honor and support it. Even then, I am not sure it is worth it, because who knows when they will change their minds again and this whole process will start over again. I think it may be time to end the tradition and start a new one. Maybe I am crazy but I think UND, as an honorable institution, should think seriously about where it decides to place honor in the future. I think Native Americans deserve to be honored but if they don't appreciate it and don't see it at an honor then what's the point?

I was thinking today, as an alum and huge Sioux fan , why do we still want to honor the Sioux nation when they don't seem to care about it? Why do we want to honor a group who turns their backs on the University of North Dakota? I think the only thing that is hostile and abusive is our relationship with the Sioux nation. We spend all of our time kissing their butts and they show no interest. Sounds a lot like an abusive relationship to me. What have the Sioux done for us lately? It is really going to suck if we see the Sioux tradition go away but I am to the point were I don't care anymore. The Sioux aren't fighting for UND they are fighting against UND. Why do we want their name again?

I wonder if the Gophers will have anything that stops pucks from going past the pipes on their end of the rink next year?

I went to the River Rats website to see if there was any info about Travis and came across this information. Zajac is going to have a tough time beating this debut performance by Stephen Gionta. What a debut for the former BCer. http://www.theahl.com/AHL/News/2006/04/13/1533779.html I am not a BC fan, and I am guessing there aren't too many other Sioux fans interested. I just thought it was impressive from a hockey standpoint. He may be looking to match up with his brothers performance in NJ....