ND Pride

That is a issue that gets people polarized quickly. One concern on college campuses is the problem of people smoking near entrances and the haze that results or at least smoke blowing in the faces of non-smokers. When you get 3-5 or more in one space it can be rude, even outdoors. Of course, another issues, perhaps just a side issue, is the problem of many smokers who leave the entryways of buildings looking like garbage dumps for cigarette butts. Look around the ground near any major entrance and you will typically see cigarette litter all over. The complete ban is a tough issue but I think the smokers have to be responsible for mess that many of them leave and they also have to have respect for non-smokers (many do but many do not). Some campuses have gone to the 50 or 100 foot rule. I think clearly they have to be moved away from building entrances - but at the same time that will be tough during the winter. The alternative is to try and stop which I think is the best choice from a health perspective.

The statistical concept of margin of error applies to samples taken from a population. In this discussion the focus is on the entire population of students so it is a census, not a sample and accordingly, margin of error is not the term. However, I see what you trying to say. Not sure it is accurate to describe the data as flattening out as NDSU is up and UND has a small drop. You are correct about the high school populations going down in size but both universities have strategies for growth designed to compensate for that well known trend of fewer high school graduates (it was actually mapped out in the 1980s). Some of the strategies involved distance education, increased focus on international students, and older than average students, gradute education, etc etc. It will take a few years to determine if the upward growth will continue or if there will indeed be a leveling off.

I seriously think that you have presented a fundamentally sound plan. It is certainly a good point for starting a discussion of the mission for each institution. I do, however, have to disagree strongly with your last sentence as I do not think there are enough hills in North Dakota for each school to have a VERY defined roll. On second thought, it is possible that the bakeries could do some coordination so that each community could have a distinctive roll.

I am not sure what the rules were on scrimmages back in the 80s but they are regulated more directly now. According to the NDHSAA here is the ruling on scrimmages and number of games (excluding region and state tournaments): 2005-06 Hockey Regulations 1. Practice begins on the date set by the NDHSAA Board and concludes with the state tournament. 2. Individuals must have participated in at least 9 daily practices (counting only one per day) before competing in an interscholastic contest. 3. NEW: One pre-season inter-squad scrimmage can be held prior to the first allowable game. Scrimmages must conform to the definition as found in the Constitution and By-Laws Q&A # 34. Scrimmages held after your first game count as one of the maximum number of games. 4. High school teams may schedule 20 games or 18 games and one invitational tournament. These parameters would give a team up to 21 regular season games and then another potential 3 in the region tourney and up to 3 more at state. That would total to a max of 27 games. With the 17 minute periods we have today a team that played 27 games would have the equivalent of 30.6 games under the old 15 minute period rule. Actually, when you consider the fall Elite and Elite II league seasons with a 20 game schedule and the spring select season of 6-10 or more games, the top level players have the opportunity to play a season of 56 or more games if they want with the format today. In addition, with the complaints people often have about their coaching staff at the high school level, this split season opportunity with Elite and Select teams provides variation in coaching. Actually we are far better off now, at least for the top tier players in North Dakota, than we were in the 80s. Who wants to play 30-40 games on a high school team that has a lot of weak links. Just another perspective on the issue. Also, with the opportunity for more North Dakota kids to play in the USA Hockey Select Festivals based on the change in selection over the past few years, there are even more opportunities for high level competition.

Info on the Jets is sparce as no roster is posted on their website and I have not seen any of their pre-season games. Chris Cusey is still in the mix with the Jets and Klenow is not. According to the website the Jets lost both pre-season games but I think it is all about sorting out the roster and not necessarily about winning. Reportedly, the second pre-season game involved all rookies for the Jets and no veterans played. Many of the Jets are enrolled at NDSU part-time but I do not have info on all of them.

I have cut and pasted from the Elite League site the following from the first week. Here is the link for future reference - http://www.hselitehockey.com/ Week One Summary/Results/Stat Leaders Justin Johnson leads Elite League scorers in opener Senior Justin Johnson of Team Wisconsin (Eau Claire North H.S.) led all scorers with six points (two goals, four assists) in three games during the opening weekend of games in the Upper Midwest High School Elite League for high school-aged hockey players. Great Plains went 2-0-1 to claim the kingbird

Chewey how many games did you play back then? A lot more than 20 to 24 in North Dakota high school hockey? In 1985 Grafton played 23 games in the full season and Minot played 24. In 80-81 South played 26 games and North 23. In 79-80- Central played 20 regular season and then another 6 with regions and state. North played 20 as well and then another 5 in region and state. Taking 04-05 as an example South played 27 games, Red River 26 and Grafton 27. This year South played 27 and Red River played 25. When you consider 17 minute periods you are getting 6 minutes more "game" currently and over a 25 game season that is an increase of 3.3 games. Today a 25 game season is really a 28.3 game season if you compare it to the old standard 15 minute period. I am not saying that we should not have a few more games, just that there has been some progress. Also, I don't see how North Dakota High School teams were playing a lot more than 20-24 games back in the 80s. What am I missing that leads you to your conclusion? The way to change this is to eliminate high school hockey and establish minor midget and major midget teams following USA hockey guidelines and then you can play a lot more games. That is the AAA model used by Shattuck but that level of scheduling would not allow kids in other sports. As long as the high school league governs an activity it will be harder to extend the season due to whatever considerations that the board members deem relevant (costs of an extended season, potential overlap with other sports, etc). I do agree a few more games would be great, at least to have parity with Minnesota.

OK, here goes - let's start up North with Grafton. What can you say when you lose 9 seniors including Paul (63 points) and Thomas (56) Campbell as well as top d-man Andrew Peterson. And let's not forget Kringstad in goal. Three of those players helped lead Team North Dakota to the championship game in the Chicago Showcase last April - their shoes cannot be filled - at least not this year - but Grafton always seems to have good talent in the pipeline and the shelves are not bare going into the 06-07 season. Zach Miller (38 points) and Tanner Hills (27 points) are the top returning scorers. Tanner Anderson kicked in 19 and Chris Midgarten 14. There are several defensemen returning including Andrew Peterson's younger brother Billy, Luke Paulson, Jordan Feltman and several others. Mike Sand is a returning goalie but apparently only played 4 periods of varsity. Grafton has 17 returning players and with a hockey tradition I would expect more of the same old, same old - Grafton looking to finish somewhere in the top four in the region and claim a berth at state. How high they finish will depend on the goalie situation and how well the defense can develop. And, there is always the "bantam" factor which is hard to measure when the youth players move up to the high school level. This season will not be an automatic re-load but I think it will be a good one for Grafton. An added benefit for the Grafton fans when playing in Grand Forks is the option of going over to the hometown restaurant (Campbell's Grill) - it's a great place for opposing fans as well. I am getting no commission for that plug.

Thanks, I am feeling the pressure to produce something. I will see what I can do.

Beside Danny Irman transferring from North to Red River, who else has transferred to either Central or Red River?

Just to add to the info on the invitational camp - Team Grey defeated Team Red 4-2 in an evening game. Mihulka scored on a nice set-up from Klenow for the Red Team. Not sure who had the other one for Red. Paul Weisgarber had a very nice goal for Grey.

My experiences with Mark Bry in Select Hockey and with the ND 88 team were totally positive. In my opinion, any team that has him as a coach has a tremendous asset. I hope he continues to be involved in hockey in some way.

I think we fundamentally agree on the issues. Basically, the majority of players who want to go the D-I route (at least WCHA and CCHA level D-I) must play at least one year of juniors - those who do not are the exception. (As an interesting sidelight - check the rosters at top D-III schools and you will typically see from 50% to 95% of the kids on their rosters with Junior "A" experience) Yes, many elite coaches are biased against High School hockey and they do have a point. In other parts of the country there is little or no high school hockey and kids are filtered to skill based tiers (AAA, AA etc) in minor midgets and major midgets. And as you note, ability based teams allow for more exposure at the higher tiers, better coaching, team synergy etc. And I also agree that kids who do not "jump ship" are at a disadvantage. My point, is that you are not necessarily, absolutely doomed if you stay with a high school team that is at the level of Moorhead for example.

ChadR-nice post and thanks for the credit. I have read all of the posts on this thread and there is a lot of good information provided and many of the factors have been covered. I have some reports to work on the next few days so I can't really give a total response but there are good answers to your questions. I will get back to that question later. Just a couple of things. You mention Minnesota kids (high school seniors) taking the step straight out of high school to college. You ask, what are they doing better? I could go on and on in response. Let me start with one variable that has already been mentioned on this board. You can call it the biological aspect, statistical, gene pool or population. That is one major prerequisite to success - but only one. What I mean is this - in the Minnkota district there are 44,262 registered hockey players (Minnesota, ND and SD). I had the breakout numbers for ND and SD but recently deleted them. Trust me that Minnesota has thousands more playing hockey. Their population is larger - of course so is the population of Arkansas but we have more hockey players than they do - obviously there is tradition as a factor and culture. Back to my point, from a purely statistical standpoint when you have a larger group of people - a larger gene pool so to speak - you are more likely to have larger numbers people outside of the statistical average - e.g. taller, faster, quicker etc. So from a purely genetic and population size standpoint you start with the potential to have better players because of the larger selection of talent that a large gene pool provides. That is the most "structural" and fundamental advantage that larger states have. Of course, then you need a culture that supports the game -people who understand it, value it, etc. That is why Grand Forks has typically led the state in hockey - more of a hockey infrastructure and culture - even though Fargo has a bigger gene pool - of course other variables come into play here as well (coaching, development programs, rinks, etc, etc). Back to my point, with a large gene pool you are more likely to have kids who were born with the right combination of physical traits to get them into D-I hockey out of high school. North Dakota simply does not have a large enough gene pool to do that - at least with any regularity -it is not impossible - just that the numbers are not on our side. Of course then one might say - what about Warroad, Roseau, etc and other small towns - their gene pool is small - how do you explain that? This is where culture becomes important - the community values the sport and kids are expected to try the game and receive good development. Also, you do have people who move into those small communities, or are recruited, to play on their teams. Take Moorhead for example, in the 70s little hockey culture - not much at all - then new people come in, traditions are built, coaching is good, infrastructure is developed and the right synergies are present. That environment also attracts people from outside of the area and that adds further to the advantage. Tally up how many kids came into Moorhead from other places (Alexandria, International Falls, Fargo, etc) and how that provided some additional boost to a strong program. Quality attracts quality. Anyway, you could write a history for each community and detail the different variables that have contribued to the success, or lack of success. Briefly, you could have the best developmental program in the world and it might be possible that no North Dakota kids jump from high school to D-I in one year because they just do not have the right collection of physical attributes at age 18 to do it. In any case, there is a lot of debate among hockey "followers" about playing one or two years of juniors. There are some who feel that currently, too many are going to D-I college without enough developmental time in juniors (I have no Sioux players in mind when I say this but I have heard comments about others at top WCHA schools alluding to the idea that they needed more time or some time in juniors to develop). Anyway, these are complex issues and there is much more to it than what I have covered here. Others have added variables that are important. These are important discusisons because in North Dakota, because of our small numbers, we cannot afford to do it (development of players) wrong.

Jloos - how are ya doing. Couple of things here. I have seen your cousin play for most of his career and he has a lot of talent. He is one of those players with a "will to score" and handles the puck very very well. His size also serves him well. My point, is that those who said, "in no uncertain terms that he would never play past high school if he stayed where he was (Fargo North)" were over stating the case. It is true that the program there has not been a strong developmental one but as a previous poster stated - how about Cory McClean a top USHL player who finished up 4 years at Notre Dame, and Pat O'Leary - USHL and then with the Sioux, Nate Nomeland - also a career at North and then the USHL and Princeton, and also some of the D-III players Jerod Klava (NAHL and Gustavus). There are more. But, as a total generalization that statement is wrong as it overstates the case and totally ignores the kids who went on anyway to be successful. End of lecture. Too bad Cory's career was cut short with injury as he would have continued his success through juniors and beyond. I will say, however, that if a kid wants to move up in the hockey world and his local friendships and other sports are not important, it can be easier if you get into the right high school but, a big trend now, is to try and make an inseason AAA team - that is, leave home for the school year and go live in Omaha (AAA Energy), Colorado (Outlaws, etc), Illinois (Team Illinois AAA, Chicago Young Americans, Mission AAA, etc, etc) or the two dozen or more other AAAs (Dallas AAA, Compuware, Honey Baked, etc) that are in the general vicinity of the central part of the US. I am not saying that I think this is the best way to live your young life but it is a way that many kids and parents are choosing because of their hockey focus.

Ryan is living in West Fargo and works for a medical products company. He worked a hockey camp in Fargo in June and also was an assistant high school hockey coach in Fargo this past season.

I spoke with a well connected advisor to the Pawlenty administration, who is not in favor of the tuition proposal, this past weekend and was told that there is no chance that the tuition proposal will go through. For what that is worth - we will see.

That is a hard question to answer. Hakstol has been to a few high school games this year. He was at the Red River/North game in Grand Forks but no indication of who he was looking at - probably Marc Mihulka. Hakstol and Brad Berry were also at the Minnesota Model camp last June but there was only one ND kid there and Phil Kessel's brother from Madison, and a couple of other non-Minnesota kids. I am sure they have checked Marc Mihulka out. I really don't know about the West kids. I think it is a little early for the North Dakota players as typically they need two years of junior A hockey to develop before they are ready to go D-1. The quality of Sioux recruits is so high with guys like Oshie, Towes, etc that you really have to be visible at a national level to typically attract the attention of the Sioux coaching staff. Take Michael Forney of Thief River Falls for example, he was a top scorer at the USA Hockey National Festival one year, and high up other years. I assume some of the Sioux staff will be at the Select 17 Festival in St. Cloud and will have a good look at kids from all over the country including the North Dakota kids who made the Festival. These are kids, however, that will be high school seniors this fall. I think the biggest question right now is how many North Dakota High School graduating seniors will make it into the USHL or NAHL. Mario L is already there as is Jordan Willert and Erik Galt. Paul Weisgarber is in the NAHL and may jump to the USHL. Jundt, Dittus and Hillman have been tendered/drafted in one or more leagues. Several other kids are still in the mix for both leagues. By August 1 we should know a lot about who is making it to the Junior A level. It may be a couple of years after that before this group of high school seniors will have a read on a possible D-1 career.

What I meant when I said that "the loaded Minnesota team that I would venture to say has never been matched ever by an in-state team anywhere in the US" was that, to my knowledge there has never been a single birth year team with players all from one state that had 6 eventual NHL draft picks on it - including 3 first rounders." My apology, I should have been more specific. By my criteria the Blades, as good as they were, would not fit because for example, Phil Kessel - from Madison - played for the Minnesota Blades 1987 birthyear team. In addition, the 1988 birthyear Minnesota Blades had three outstate kids on their team - (Wisconsin, Illinois and North Dakota).

We are all entitled to our opinions and you are entitled to yours. I do think however that what you mean is that you are not impressed by the performance of the North Dakota kids. The word "credibility" that you use means "capable of being believed" and if that is what you really mean all I can say is that every detail of the game and the players is true. Your statement that if the score was 2-1 or 3-2 the game story "may be warranted" as you say, is absurd. So if it was not closer than one goal the game is not warranted - come on. I just think that it was a great effort as I saw the game. It seems quite interesting years later now that six of those kids were drafted into the NHL and others will play Juniors and D-1 hockey. There are two interesting facts here - the loaded Minnesota team that I would venture to say has never been matched ever by an in-state team anywhere in the US. That a group of ND kids kept the game close that long is notable. Remember Mueller was rookie of the year in the WHL this season and Okposo in the USHL not to mention the others.

Which section of the rambling are you having trouble with? Maybe if you can provide some indication I can help you out.

IF YOU ARE INTERESTED IN AN INTRIGUING STORY OF NORTH DAKOTA HIGH SCHOOL HOCKEY PLAYERS READ THIS: Imagine that you have a bantam age hockey team and on that team you have not one, not two, not three, but six players who will be picked in the NHL draft, including three first rounders. In addition, most of the remaining players are going into the USHL. About 80% of those on the team will end up playing D-I hockey. How many games would that team lose? How good would they be? This team was a reality for several years including 2002. The team was the Minnesota 88s and here is their roster with NHL draft picks listed or USHL/high school team for those I could research: Erik Johnson (#1 U of M), Kyle Okposo (#7 U of M), Peter Mueller (#8 WHL Everett Silvertips), Jamie McBain (#63 U of Wis), Michael Carman (#81 U of M), Ryan Flynn (#176 U of M). In addition, Bret Peterson (Indiana Ice USHL/Elk River HS), Alex Stuart (Sioux City Musketeers), Andy Inderieden (Breck HS, USHL), Tony Mosey (USNDPT) also Matt Erickson, Derek McCallom (Hill Murray), Tony McDonald, Matt Shaughnessy, Robert Tennyson (reported to be playing D-1 football), and Ricky Booker. I have not had time to trace out these last few players. So what do these kids have to do with North Dakota High School Hockey? A North Dakota Select team played that group at the Bloomington Ice Gardens in 2002 as part of the Minnesota Meltdown April Tournament. The ND team had forwards Mario Lamoureux, Justin Connell, Sam Wedin, Thomas Campbell, Nick Klenow, Nathan Stremick, Drew Fluer, Ross Monson, Grant Larson and defensemen: Andy Petersen, Alan Spriggs, Ian Grande, Trevor Anderson, Clark Dingeman and Paul Weisgarber (Paul played a lot of d that year as well as some forward). Goalies were Michel Hillman and Justin Welk and Mark Bry and Milo Johnson were the coaches. It was the second game of the day for the North Dakota players and the Minnesota 88s were fresh. After one period the score was 0-0 and the Minnesota team was frustrated. In the second period Peter Mueller (WHL rookie of the year this season) scored unassisted and U of Mn recruit Ryan Flynn added another with assists from future Gopher recruits Kyle Okposo and Michael Carman. The period ended with Minnesota up 2-0 and the frustration level was even higher. The 88s were used to blowing people out early and the North Dakota team was making them look bad. Their coach was so frustrated that he rolled 2 lines in the third period to try and blow the game open. Imagine a team with six future NHL draft picks (3 of them first rounders) and the coach rolls 2 lines. The refs cooperated as well as North Dakota was given 4 penalties in the 3rd with none for Minnesota. The strategy paid off as the relentless pressure from some of the best players in North America (or actually in the world if we look at their eventual draft numbers) led to 5 more goals and a 7-0 victory - the closest game in the tournament by far for the 88s. Peter Mueller ended the game with a hat trick, Kyle Okposo had 2 goals and an assist, Erik Johnson had a goal. Later that spring the North Dakota team made two trips to Winnipeg with the first resulting in a 7 game string of wins to take the Great Flood AAA tournament. Several weeks later the team played Jonathon Toewes' Winnipeg Junior Jets to a 9-9 tie. Towes did not play as he was in Toronto with an all star team at Prospects. The AAA Junior Jets team that was tied by North Dakota had nearly every single player drafted into the WHL. The main point here is that it is quite interesting when you look back and see a high school age youth team that has six NHL draft picks on it any your team played them tough for 2 periods - and actually - considering the way the game was played North Dakota played them tough to the final buzzer. This same group of kids later went to Orlando in 2003 and played for the Tier II USA Hockey National Bantam Championship losing 4-3 in the final. Lets keep celebrating the quality of North Dakota hockey and hope we can keep some of these traditions going.

We all know that tryouts at all levels can have players of varying abilities and yes a tryout can be and is a revenue source for a team - we already know that. Of course, the bottom line in these tryouts is not only the talent level you are playing against but how well the coaching staff thinks you are playing based on what it takes to succeed in their league. Those that do well in the opinion of the coaches move on to the next tryout.

I know that Tyler and Andy were drafted by Green Bay and that the Gamblers had their tryout camp. Did both players make the 25 man roster? If that is the case then that is great news. Is a roster posted somewhere? Congrats to both players on their post high school success.