ND Pride

Thanks for the work you put into this.

Thanks for digging the tie-breaker information out - much appreciated.

I never said "superstar"

There are a lot of issues raised in your post - some of them I have some agreement with and others I think are unsubstantiated. It might be easiest to deal with them separately. First, let's start with your last comment about posting names. It is a norm among individuals with some level of civility that you do not hide behind a screen name and tear down other people or show an attitude of disrespect. There are a number of instances where you (soohockey15) do exactly that. Anyone can go back on this thread and check out those posts as all posts are numbered sequentially. Examples include your post #113 where you refer to a specific high school goalie as a "nutcase." Others on this board objected to that comment about a high school player. And then there is post #169 where you state, "Stop clinging to your childhood and try to get over the fact that you're nothing." This comment you made in response to a specific indivdual. There are other posts that you have made that are not attacks but are just plain unusual such as post #107 which states, "i hear u cluckin big chicken." And then there is the one (post #48) that Wilbur, rightfully took issue with, where you described the west as "brutal." In summary, when those who post on a board provide negative commentary about named individuals who are kids, it is considered poor form. The response to that is - don't hide behind a screen name and say negative things about kids because by doing that you are taking advantage of the anonymity of these types of boards - there is no accountability. If you are going to do that then level the playing field and identify yourself. It is primarily a rhetorical statement designed to bring people to a clearer perspective as to the unfairness of what they are doing. You ask me, as you say - for the fun of it to start putting my name at the end of my posts so people will know where I am coming from. Well, it should be clear as to where I am coming from. I think it is fun to exchange facts and information about high school hockey. It is fun to promote North Dakota high school hockey and players - whether they are from Red River, Mandan, Minot, Bismarck, South, North or Grafton, etc. I have promoted kids from all of these areas. Characterizing North Dakota kids in a negative way on a North Dakota site is crazy. Sometimes it is best to occasionally reflect on the old statement - if you can't say something positive then don't say anything at all. At any rate, that is where I am coming from. Now, a few general comments about the very unfortunate introduction of the term "superstars" by "He Who Shoots Top Shelf". In opposition to that label, I believe that there is no such thing as a high school

When it comes to numbers and statistics there are many ways in which a person might intend to provide insight but in the end really provide none at all. One way that we see often on this board is to cite a statistic and say something like, "He has the best GAA therefore is the best goalie" - without any attention to strength of schedule, etc. We see a similar type of analysis above with the (clever?) totaling of points from players in two different leagues (east and west) and then using it to put down some high school kids. Again, I find it hard to understand why people take apparent pleasure in this type of activity. If you are such an expert on high school hockey and you want to run kids down by name then add your name at the end. It takes a lot of courage to knock kids who go out and play the game in front of everyone while people like you hide in the shadows and criticize them.

Thanks for the insight into your perspective - let's reflect on it, some of it - as you say, "I felt I would not be able to handle what the officials would have to say." Sorry to hear that as part of being a functioning member of a society involves participation in meetings and being able to control your emotions. At least you know your limitations. Maybe you should stay away from large gatherings of people if you can't handle what might happen there (your team losing). As you say, "who is keeping this school in business here" - well try the adult taxpayers in North Dakota. As I said in an earlier post, UND, like all public universities in North Dakota is state assisted and if it were not for that your tuition would be double or more. You can also thank the UND faculty who bring in research grants that provides overhead that supports some of the facilities you enjoy as a student. Non-student ticket holders who are UND graduates have contributed far more than you to the economics of the university. By your own figures a graduate who takes 4 years to finish has put in $40,000 and has a degree. Many students won't even graduate so those non-student ticket holders who graduated have paid far more for the priviledge of having Sioux tickets than the average student still taking classes, especially the significant percentage who will never graduate. Your logic about pride and non-student ticket holders is hard to follow. Are you saying that they should have pride and spirit and exemplify it by using profanity as some students do? Last time you checked this was college not high school. Well, unfortunately colleges are becoming more like high schools all the time with all the remedial courses, immature classroom behavior and poor discipline. Sporting events are one symptom of the lack of civility and self-centered immaturity of some people. As you say, "I think we should be able to say anything we want." If that is the case then why don't you try the same language in class or at a family dinner. Some rationalize the lack of civility by saying that it is a sporting event and it is ok there. Well, it is not - just because some people tend to lose their inhibitions and emotional control at an athletic contest and use profanity to express their frustration does not make it right. If you would like to learn a little bit more about fan behavior at large sporting events take some social science courses and learn about what sociologists call collective behavior.

I expect to be at the game and I would think Red River would come out very focused. I think specific score predictions are difficult but based on overall team depth I would expect South to be favored to win this one.

I really think you should post who will be getting the assists on those goals.

First of all, scoring 22 goals in the EDC is not a fluke for anyone. Scoring a hat trick in a game - it certainly can be, but not that volume of goals in the east. I just checked my files and he did have a hat trick against Red River in their second meeting of the year - probably not a fluke against that team- they were eventually state champions. Part of the problem around the state this year, (not at Red River or South) includes the lack of experience at defense. Forwards are simply not going to shine without quality players breaking the puck out of the back and then holding the blue line - stats are down across the state at some schools (Bismarck High, Century, Central, even Red River - this is true for the latter two even with their lower number of games). Part of the issue stems from that total team performance perspective. In addition, as pointed out last summer by others posting on this site, North is easier to defense by opponents because they do not have the kind of line balance that they had during the 04-05 season. These types of things explain, in part, some of the lowered productivity. Again, if you look around you will see other teams with some of the same struggles - kids who had high point totals last year but are not getting the same numbers this year. People who are true fans of the game look for these types of team dynamism/synergy issues in trying to explain player and team performance. Other, less mature indivduals, vomit emotionally based critiques and name calling to presumably boost their own self-esteem.

Thanks for attending and for providing your report of the meeting.

In reading the various posts on this board for the past year or two one has to wonder what motivates people like alum05 who get on here and publically tear down players by name while they hide behind an anonymous screen name. It takes a lot of class to engage in that type of behavior. Maybe the next time you want to demean a team you can at least go to Bob Gillen's site and check out the game schedules so you get all of your facts straight. Of course, people like you are not interested in facts but rather in hiding like a gutless wonder and taking shots at people.

Here is the game detail for the Roseau vs Red River game. ROSEAU 9, GF RED RIVER 2 First period - 1. R, Brian Tveit (Nathan Voll, Craig Turnow) 2:05; 2. R, Brian McMillin (Corey Erickson, Kurt Weston) 7:08; 3. R, Aaron Ness (Ben Nelson, Tyler Landman) 8:17; 4. R, Landman (Dustin Moser, Nelson) 8:29. Second period - 5. R, Moser (Nelson, Landman) 1:03; 6. R, McMillin (Weston) 6:02; 7. RR, David Spies (Eric Meland, Jarrett Galbreath) 9:57; 8. R, Erickson (John Prelvitz, Weston) 13:24. Third period - 9. RR, Jeff Bakke (Jake Waind, Jake Lundby) 6:12; 10. R, McMillin (Erickson, Ness) 7:29; 11. R, Weston (Derek Biermaier) 14:05. Goalie saves - R: Alex Bjerk 9-5-5 - 19; RR: Eli Rosendahl 7-7-x - 14, Pat Arnason x-x-9 - 9.

Here are the scores for Roseau's games this season. They have played three North Dakota teams. Red River and Roseau also have games against common opponents Crookston and EGF. Tues. Nov. 29 Thief River Falls Away 3 - 4 OT L Fri. Dec. 2 Blaine Home 4 - 3 W Sat. Dec. 3 Totino Grace Home 1 - 4 L Tues. Dec. 6 Crookston Away 5 - 2 W Sat. Dec. 10 St. Cloud Tech - 1 & 3 pm Home 5 - 2 W Tues. Dec. 13 Moorhead - 4 & 6 pm Away 3 - 4 OT L Fri. Dec. 16 Greenway-Coleraine Home 11 - 0 W Sat. Dec. 17 Hibbing Home 4 - 3 OT W Thur. Dec. 22 Bemidji Away 7 - 1 W Wed. Dec. 28 Holiday Classic - Lake of the Woods Home 5 - 1 W Thur. Dec. 29 Holiday Classic - Jamestown Home 6 - 0 W Fri. Dec. 30 Holiday Classic - Bismarck Home 6 - 0 W Thur. Jan. 5 Lake of the Woods Away 8 - 0 W Sat. Jan. 7 East Grand Forks Away 4 - 3 W Thur. Jan. 12 Warroad Home 4 - 2 W Sat. Jan. 14 St. Paul Johnson - 1 & 3 pm Home 7 - 2 W Tues. Jan. 17 Grand Forks Red River Away 9 - 2 W

Actually, I talked to Tom Campbell, Thomas's dad, and I don't think they are doing Team North Dakota. I hope they do but it did not sound like it - I did not follow up and ask about any junior "A" interest. Andy Petersen is interested in playing post high school and will probably sign up for the Team North Dakota tryouts and maybe apply for the Elite Exposure Tournament at Shattuck.

It is a great question but I don't think all of the evaluators who vote on those awards are all aware of work ethic in the summer for every player nominated. Besides, as much as I respect what you have said about work ethic - and I do believe that a summer work ethic is critical - the awards are given based on performance on the ice during the hockey season. I don't think we are necessarily talking about Mr. Hockey - just about who the best players are at their position. That might lead to a Mr. Hockey nomination.

It is good to direct some attention to other goalies who are doing well. Bown has been overlooked. Hard to compare goalies, however, when you don't get a change to see all of them play. The way to answer the question would be to have a panel of 3 professional goalie coaches watch the top candidates play and make a decision based on that review. It is impractical and will never happen but that could resolve the issue of who is best.

Crosby 87 you really hit the nail on the head. QB Eagles#7 makes a good point about the margin of error being lower when there are fewer shots but as you point out - with forwards who play well on the defensive end and excellent defensemen the quality of shot is typically going to go down thus the saves that goalies on those teams make can be more routine and less challenging. That is why Hillman's performance stands out against all other goalies this season. He turned away a lot of shots as well as a lot of quality shots. I agree with Crosby87 that you cannot go by stats alone and in fact, that is why I analyze stats more thoroughly - often the surface statistics give the wrong impression. It would be great to see Rosendahl and Deichert in games where they get peppered like Hillman did so we can see how well they would do. Deichert played against Moorhead and stopped 20 of 24 shots for a save percentage of 83.3%. Rosendahl helped keep Red River in a 2-1 game with South but only faced 26 shots. I doubt that Rosendahl will be seriously challenged until they play South again. If Rosendahl is going to be labeled as the best goalie when the season is over I think it will come down to how well he does against South and they may play four times this season. The Grafton and Central games might factor in too.

The calculation of stats for big games was purely an exercise designed to provide some insight into the performance of the goalies. To make conclusions you need a lot of information and the "big" game stat was simply an exercise. As I said, if you combine stats for 4 to 6 "big" games then that can help in making conclusions as well - as long as some meaningful differences emerge. You could run a similar analysis for players, as you suggest, but you would need a stack of game sheets to do that - or all of the newspaper box scores and that would be a lot of work. I have no vested interest in who is the best goalie in the state - I don't really care - it is interesting, however, to make sure each player gets a fair review. Sometimes stats can help with that, and other times the do not help as the differences are not meaningful enough. Honestly, from what I have seen in terms of stats and seeing Deichert and Rosendahl play many times this season and Hilllman once - I can't see how one can be singled out at this time. They are all good. Wait until the pressure of the region tournaments develops and ultimately state - it will take that long to really determine who is the best. One final note on Hillman - I think there is a good comparison to Deichert and Rosendahl. Hillman has a 92% save percentage on a team that is not that strong. I think it is up for honest debate that he might be the best goalie in the state and would have stats as good as the other two if he were on teams with that quality. It is still too early to tell - but interesting to discuss with an open mind.

Another way of looking at the goalie issue is to see how the top goalies have done against the top teams. Here are save percentages for four goalies in their games against Fargo South in rank order: 1. Michael Hillman 54/57 (3 goals) 94.7% 2. Tony Kringstad 35/37 (2 goals) 94.6% 3. Eli Rosendahl 24/26 (2 goals) 92.3% 4. Kelvin Shane 31/35 (4 goals) 88.6% I might add that West Fargo's Colin Guidinger had 44/48 vs South for a 91.6% save percentage (4 goals) a day or two after South had their big game against Moorhead. Here are the save percentages for several top goalies against the #2 team in the East - Red River: 1. Sean Deichert 24/25 (1 goal) 96.0% 2. Kelvin Shane 24/26 (2 goals) 92.3% 3. Tony Kringstad 24/28 (4 goals) 85.7% In some cases there is not a meaningful difference between goalies in terms of save percentage. We also have to take account that the performance of the goalie is also impacted by the defense so this is not a perfect analysis. Also, the numbers are based on a per game basis. If we would aggregate the results for games between the top 3 or 4 teams in the east we could come up with a fairly stable indicator of who is, at least statistically, the best player.

Just for some entertainment here are goalie statistics for a few EDC goalies that controls, as much as possible, on difficulty of schedule. I have calculated GAA and save percentage for EDC games only. That helps to standardize the comparison and accounts for the fact that some teams have played tougher schedules than other teams. It is not a perfect analysis as not every team has played the same EDC schedule but by now most every team has played each of the EDC teams (Shanley has not played South, West Fargo has not yet played Grafton, etc). Just the same, here are the numbers in rank order: 1. Sean Deichert 0.428 GAA (3 goals), 97.4% saves 2. Eli Rosendahl 1.125 GAA (9 goals), 94.1% saves 3. Tony Kringstad 1.875 GAA (15 goals), 92.5% saves 4. Kelvin Shane 2.71 GAA, (19 goals) 89.6% saves 5. Bob Traynor 4.0 GAA, (32 goals) 88.4% saves 6. Justin Welk 4.4 GAA, (40 goals) 85.8% saves This is not a complete listing as I did not take the time to work all the numbers. I have done calculations for those goalies who have been discussed from the East Region. In all fairness, on an apples to apples comparison, Sean Deichert has the best statistics. Having the best statistics does not mean that you are necessarily the best goalie. The performance of a goalie can also be reviewed more closely by looking at the number of power play goals scored against them. If the guys out front play stupid and give the other team an advantage then your numbers will look worse. Some of the goalies in the east have worked with that type of handicap. For the goalie position some of this (awards) is going to come down to who comes up big in critical games (e.g. South vs Red River, Central vs Red River, Grafton vs South, etc.). On the other hand, if the defense is able to smother the other teams then some of these goalies will not be able to face the big tests that will show who is the best - the big games might not come down to goal tending. We will have to wait and see. Hopefully, I have not made any math errors in doing this analysis.

That is correct, they have six teams. If you are a bantam age player that can compete at the national level the typical progression in the Shattuck system would be Bantam AAA Tier I, then U16, then Prep Team. For example, Tyson Dozak, the 6'5" defenseman from Fergus Falls, who is now with Kelowna of the WHL took that progression. The Bantam team plays for the USA Hockey Tier I National Championship (as the Minnkota rep they advance directly since there are no other Tier I bantam teams). The U16s also go to the USA Hockey Tier I National Championships (Minor Midget) as does the Prep Team for Major Midget (there are no other Minnesota, South Dakota or North Dakota teams at that classification for a playoff so they also advance directly). There are occasionally players who take the fast track progression (Tier I bantam, U16) but then do not make the Prep team as juniors or seniors. Sometimes they quit before playing on the Midget AAA team and migrate to one of the top high school programs nearby (Blake, Bloomington Jefferson, etc, etc). The Midget AAA team does have some good players and they play a lot of games starting in September. I am not sure that it is the case that, as skatesshattrick says, that about 1/2 of the Midget AAA will make the Prep team next year. That is speculation and depends a lot on who they bring in for next year. Things may have changed but a couple of years ago, I would have to dig out some old Shattuck rosters to check, it was rare for anyone from the Midget AAA to make the Prep Team. If you can show me data showing large numbers of kids (1/2 of the team) moving from Midget AAA to Prep I, in the past, I would love to see it. The top younger players were on the U16 team and they progressed from there to the Prep Team along with players like Crosby who came in and went directly to the Prep team. Actually, I was able to dig out the rosters and the Prep Team for 05-06 has only four kids who played on the Midget AAA last year and two of them were moved up when two Prep players were let go for violating school rules. In effect 2 moved up from MIdget AAA, seven moved up from U16, five were on the team the previous year and several were new recruits who went straight to the team to replace guys like Esposito who left early.

I think you have given a pretty good assessment of the psychology for that type of student. I think we both hope that with the knowledge that comes from a broader perspective on things he will see things differently. Let's hope it works out.

As a state assisted public university the tuition at UND, as well as other North Dakota University System institutions, is less than the total cost of attending the university. So the tuition that you pay - Siouxstudent1 - does not cover all of the costs of your education. The taxpayers of North Dakota, and a variety of other sources, provide the difference so that you can go to UND and not bear the full cost yourself. If you did bear the full cost it would be closer to the tuition paid at some private schools. So before you start crying about how the university is yours and that "it sickens me that they have so much say at OUR University, even if they were students once, etc blah blah blah,..." you need to learn some basic economics and understand that your attendance at UND is being made possible by the rest of the tax paying citizens and businesses of the state. They have a stake in the quality, productivity, and image of the institution. Maybe if you reflect on that for awhile you will begin to develop a little more persepective on your "obligations" as a citizen in this state, and how we are interdependent on one another, instead of your adolsecent perceptions of your so-called "rights." I think you would do well to take some economics courses and get a good education so you can develop a better understanding of how things work. At the same time take some english courses, that we will subsidize for you, so you can learn some grammar and spelling. Hopefully, you will graduate and reap the benefits of the wonderful college education that UND affords you. After attaining graduate status you will have a better understanding of what you narrowly refer to as "OUR university." It is an institution supported by all of the citizens of the state.

Speaking of Vigen, the 6'4" 225 defenseman, who plays for the Portage La Prairie Junior team up in Portage La Prairie, Manitoba. He has 2 assists and a team leading (tied for the lead) 136 penalty minutes. The team is struggling this year 17-25-2. I do not have a retort to your humorous (I assume) question about the 5'10" 260 defenseman you have named. Maybe someone else will bite on that one.

Thanks for the update. Apparently South beat Jamestown tonight 11-0 out in Jamestown.