ND Pride

I agree with doubleu. Your trashing of other teams serves no productive purpose. Everyone knows that these teams are struggling so why waste the space to rub it in their faces. Maybe you should start your own thread somewhere so your brand of "analysis" does not have to disgrace what is basically a good thread. Those who enjoy that type of "talk" can go straight to it although from the comments that I have seen so far you would not have much of an audience.

The score in the paper is incorrect. Bob Gillen has it correct on his site as 5-2. North did get their 5th goal with 21 seconds to go in the game. The shot count is very misleading as an indicator of anything. Really, the shots should have been heavily in favor of West Fargo, normally, as they had a significant advantage in power play opportunities including two 5 on 3 opportunities. West Fargo had trouble, at times, getting their shots on net. Most of the penalties that North received were deserved. As is typical there were a couple on each side that were missed. Both teams had their moments in this game with North dominating the West Fargo zone especially early in the first period. West Fargo had some good pressure as well and they deserve credit for a good effort. The game was closer than the 5-2 score suggests. If North can cut down on the penalties which really hurt their cause then there obviously would be greater chances for offensive opportunities. Just the same, credit to West Fargo as I think they are capable of putting up a good effort. Their skill level needs an upward bump but it should be interesting to see how they shape up in the second half of the season. I think it is important to realize that at the high school level, hockey teams can have some uneven play and teams that are perceived as lower in quality can put up a good game. South's close game with Central is testimony to that as is Red River's 3-2 game with West Fargo.

North beat West Fargo tonight 5-2. The game was tied at 1-1 and then 2-2. North pulled away in the third although West Fargo had a couple of 5 on 3's. West Fargo played a reasonable game. Overall their skating was much stronger than I expected. Dave Burdick, who was mentioned earlier in this thread, scored one of West Fargo's goals. The West Fargo team played better than I expected based on the number of players that they lost to graduation.

Nice analysis. I would guess things could turn out pretty close to the your read.

You are totally correct on the very loose application of the label AAA. That is why I gave examples of the programs traditionally recognized as AAA and who typically qualify for the Tier I USA Hockey National Championships. There are about 80 AAA teams that have websites across the United States and the top programs take players from anywhere in the country. It is also true that some AAA teams that are thrown together in the summer would be beaten, and have been beaten, by very good North Dakota or Minnesota A teams. In North Dakota there is the Pepsi Cup tournament that is billed as a AAA tournament. Most and maybe all of the teams in that tournament would not come close to competing with a true regular season AAA team such as those in the Elite Midwest AAA league (Honeybaked, Team Illinois, Victory Honda, Little Ceasar's etc). In the end the label AAA is best judged after the fact based on the performance of the team against other traditional AAA teams rather than how the promoters describe it in marketing it to prospective players and families.

You have your dates correct as the Patriots were started in the 87-88 season and added their building in 1989. I was only off by about 8-10 years.

In North Dakota the regular season (Nov-March) youth hockey teams are essentialy based on a geographic area within a community. Smaller communities have one team (Grafton, Jamestown, etc) and larger communities have more (e.g. Grand Forks, Bismarck, Fargo). Since they do not take players (petitions are possible) out of their district (which is typically the boundary for the nearest public high school) they are classified as "A" teams. At the bantam level in years when a team is sent to USA Hockey Nationals they compete at the Tier II level. There are no regular season AAA teams in North Dakota and you could probably argue that our post season spring Select teams are probably AA at best and not at the Tier I level such as teams like Chicago Mission, Team Illinois, Little Cesaer's, Honeybaked, Compuware, Shattuck-St. Mary's etc.

Nice analysis. Thanks for putting that together.

It is true that the Fargo Patriots provided a nice outlet for some kids to play hockey. Some of the kids who played, may in fact, have not played hockey had it not been for that club. However, the group was formed in opposition to the other Fargo Youth Hockey programs. I am well aware of this as I was asked to do a review of any research literature that would show the negative aspects of kids being cut or being put on a B team as opposed to an A team. One of the founders of the Patriots asked for this research review. They wanted a total B program and initially, some did not want checking as part of their program. The early relations between the Patriots and Fargo Youth Hockey were extremely negative. In fact, there was a lot of hostility between the organizations. My recollection is that the club was started in the late 70s or early 80s. I can get an exact start date for the group in a day or two. I have talked with many of the parents on both sides of that development back in the early days and there was a lot of conflict. There were a number of talented players who played for the Patriots such as Mr Hockey Cory McClean who left as a peewee or bantam. One of the problems with the Patriots is that some parents put kids in the program that belonged in a better developmental situation. That ended up hurting hockey in Fargo from the high level competitive standpoint. Many Patriot parents were just as competitive as Flyer and Raider parents and in fact felt their players were as competitive (if only they were not in a B system). For a year or two a Patriot All Star team played Raider teams at least at the Squirt level. The Patriot organization was conflicted in many ways and people who did not understand hockey development got their kids in their low level program when they should have been in a better one. If you just wanted to have fun, were concerned about costs, and did not want to travel much it was a cool place to play. But from a strictly competitive developmental standpoint Patriot hockey hurt high level development in Fargo. That may be a bad thing, or a good thing or neutral depending on your standpoint but when talking about who could have the best team Patriots hurt mainstream clubs by draining off some of the talent and not developing them as effectively as they should have been developed.

Fargo has a reputation as not being a hockey community. Look at their facilities over the years. It was only recently that they built the new rinks off of 45th on the southside. The size of the community does not matter. It is the culture, the infrastructure, and so forth. Coaching is a huge part of it and Moorhead has had better coaching and so has Grand Forks. It is not the amount of hockey that the kids grow up with but the quality of the experience that they have with the game. The hockey programs at the critical youth level have been fragmented since the Patriots broke off from Fargo Youth Hockey (Flyers and Raiders) in the late 70's. The development of a total "B" program hurt the community in terms of developing top level players for a wide variety of reasons. Fargo still has problems with break away groups to this day. The number of high schools is part of the problem but the bigger problem has been the fragmentation of youth hockey and the quality of coaching across the board. There have been plenty of exceptions in the coaching area (Dave Morinville, for example, coached at North and won a state title or two). My conclusion is that Fargo absolutely does not have a better youth program than Grand Forks or Moorhead. The high numbers on the southside often result in very good teams because of the competition to get on an A team and also because with a larger group you tend to have a better "gene pool" to pick from (more bigger kids, faster, etc - it is simple statistics). Also, with UND hockey Grand Forks has a better community culture for the sport.

The southside Flyers have a lot of kids and typically a lot of quality athletes in their youth feeder program. I noticed this year the Bantam A Flyer team lost to the Bismarck Generals 6-5 and also to the Bismarck Nationals 7-0. They did pound some Minnesota teams and beat Mandan 7-5. Wondering if some of the other North Dakota teams are showing some strength or if the southside Bantam A team is struggling a bit?

Certainly, the best way to determine which team is the best is after they play a game. Of course, even after scores are posted some folks often argue that the best team did not win, played bad, the refs called a bad game etc. It is not unusual for people to have a civil discussion as to which team is best even if those teams have not played. That type of speculation takes place all of the time and it is part of being a sports fan. I am not sure if some of those who post on here are saying that no one should ever say which team is better until they each play one another. You can't enforce that type of censorship and it simply does not make sense because people like to speculate. As we can see, this speculation can often upset some people who cannot step back and take this for what it is.....people getting together and talking about hockey, rating teams, players, and speculating. You may not like what people say but if they develop some reasonable basis for their conclusion they certainly have a right to post on this board. They have that right even if their logic is unreasonable.

The 2005 Census estimate has Fargo at 90,672. Of course the population size comparison makes no sense at all because if success in hockey was based on population size then the US with around 300 million people would have more players in the NHL than Canada at 33 million people. The same holds for Warroad (1,700), Roseau (2,814), Grafton (4,267), and many other small communities that have proportionately more quality players than larger communities. Climate, history, culture etc explain why some areas are better than others in particular sports.

North's goals - Tanner Bombenger, and Matt Labernik - not sure who got the third. This ranking thing is tough this year because I think we will be seeing a different level of play after 10-12 games and some teams may improve more than others. I think the key here, too, for many teams is the level of improvement in their goalies and to some extent their defense. There are several goalies who need tons of work and the ones that respond can really help their teams improve in the standings. Regarding rankings in the East, clearly South is #1 and Red River is #2. I like Grafton as #3 even though North beat them. I have not seen Devils Lake play so it is hard to judge other than based on comparative scores which is a very dangerous activity. In my pre-season profile I thought Central would struggle but improve as the season goes on. With their current situation it will be hard to say how things will go. For all teams senior leadership and character are critical and so is the leadership of the coaching staff. It should be interesting to see how things develop in January. Back to your rankings question - Devils Lake beat Minot twice (hard to say what that means this year) and only lost to Grafton by one goal at home. After Grafton in third I think Devils Lake and North would be put in a tie for fourth although on paper, going into the season, I liked the way Devils Lake profiled out. Obviously it would be easier to judge if they had played a game. The key in the east is improvement and obviously getting that seed into the state tournament. Should be a dog fight in the middle, as usual.

I doubt that Dean Wilson would be risking anything early in a game - by not played his top two lines on the penalty kill. Typically he runs his top dogs as often and as long as he can.

One of the first two goals by North was on a power play. I did not notice the line combinations for either team but I would expect South would have their first or second out. Can't say one way or the other.

Regarding the South/North game tonight South rolls to another win 9-3 as noted earlier. My initial question before the game was - Will North score in this game? I would not have expected 3 goals against the goalie that most people consider the best in the state. It was a game of penalties which seems to be the continual theme this season. South scored two early in the first period on a 5 on 3 and then 5 on 4. Credit North for getting back into it 2-1 but South answered back maybe within 10-20 seconds to make it 3-1. Not sure how it went from there exactly although the score was 4-2 and then 4-3 before South jumped out to a 6-3 lead. As noted earlier, the 5 minute major against South resulted in 2 short handed goals being scored against North. With their depth problems it was difficult to keep a consistent attack against south even with a man advantage. South has very good speed and some excellent size. North does not have the personnel to match South but put up a good game for two periods. I am not sure that it is at all accurate to say that South dominated the game - especially with three goals against them in two periods. Clearly, they have a very nice team again and, as expected, they won. Regarding the earlier question of who scored for South - Graalum had the hat trick, Ian Powers had 2, Alex Hooey had one, Doeden had one or two, I think McDougall and Wurden also each had one. That adds up to 10 so I am off one somewhere - maybe Doeden only had one.

Keep us updated if you can.

I was at the game and will make a couple of posts on the game. I saw the penalty as it happened right in front of me. I am not so sure it was a good call either. It was initially a boarding call but the player was apparently hurt so there was a delay while the trainer checked him out. Both captains were nearby after the play and the North captain did talk to the refs but I seriouly doubt that he had any impact on Brad Pratt and his crew. The South player who was ejected is not a cheap player at all - Logan Doeden. The North player did turn and, given the way these games are called the refs did have to make one - not an intentional penalty but given the way the play developed something had to be called. I am not going to second guess the refs as I assume that they had a good view at ice level. From what I saw a 2 minute boarding would have worked (or the 2 and 10 as well) but the apparent injury influenced the final call. The 5 minute major did not help North out one bit as South scored two short handed goals during that time. Given the athleticism of South it helped to open up the ice especially when the second and third lines for North were out there as they have little experience with power play situations.

Any more updates on tonight's games?

I have to agree with dizzle and Messier on their comments. Lives-to-play-hockey-06 runs down teams and individuals. Hides behind a screen name and makes critical evaluations based on limited knowledge - such as the comment that Elite II is the equivalent of JV hockey, that a certain athlete will never play juniors, etc, etc. Lives-to-play also provides editorial critique of others on this board when in fact he makes a significant number of typos or spelling/grammatical errors as well - for example - spelling "equivalent" incorrectly, or saying (see above)...."Your seeing two brutal teams play." When it should read, "You are......." I guess if you are going to critique the spelling of others I would expect that you know how to write. Enough of this negativity - if you love the sport then why are you running down individuals and teams that are just doing what they enjoy.

Well, I not sure what to say as we would have to sit and watch a game together and compare notes. Consider this - Juniior A refs are better than high school refs - more experience typically, more training, better pay so theoretically they are better in how they officiate - most high school refs could not qualify for junior A work. At the D-1 level, those refs are theoretically even better. So, again, theoretically they should do a better job. Now I know that there are fans who hate certain WCHA refs and so forth but generally speaking the refs at the next higher level should have a better grasp of the game and should do a better job. I think in most cases they do.

My opinion - really, this is not a state issue as the changes are national. I believe that it will help improve the game and therefore it will help the state.

If you really want an answer to your question then on Friday and Saturday nights log onto the USHL and NAHL sites and check out the game sheets for penalties. You will find some of the same there although there may have been some improvement from earlier in the season. If you talk to folks who promote skill hockey the general consensus that I have seen is that they agree that it is good for the game - makes it - eventually more exciting for the fans, skill players, etc. On the other hand, if teams do not change their style then you will see a lot of penalties and fans can get frustrated as well as some players. The refs need to adjust to the new rules and some do it better than others. There are a lot of habits that have to be unlearned. I'm not necessarily making my statement but repeating what I have heard from folks who want to see more skill and scoring back in the game. Ultimately, at the highest levels hockey is a business and if the fans are not entertained then attendance will be hurt and therefore the bottom line as well. There is probably going to be a lot of frustraton along the way. Plus there are some fans and former players who like the old style. Ultimately, the game will adapt to what the fans want as that is what funds the sport at the pro, collegiate and junior levels. I think in a year or two most people will agree that the game will have improved with the current changes.

Last fall's Elite II team roster has 24 North Dakota players on it and 23 of them are playing varsity hockey in North Dakota. Some of the players may be very average but if Bob Gillen has the correct rosters from this years high school varsity teams then it is hard to typify last year's Elite II as having a plurality of JV players. In any case, if the team was down from previous year's I have yet to hear an elaboration of why the team was perceived to be down. Was it their record in the Elite league? All I have heard is the view that it is at the JV level and that makes no sense to me. The rosters for this year do not support that and no one has provided any objective evidence such as the team's record in the league this past fall. I might agree if someone could post some data but so far no one has any. What does concern me, however, is the tendency sometimes to run down players and teams which really does not serve anyone well. I'm not picking on XtotheZ here as I am just picking up after his post. North Dakota High School hockey seems cleary to be down but let's try and be as objective as we can about it and not kick the kids around when the team quality is on a dip.